Page 20 of 34 FirstFirst ...
10
18
19
20
21
22
30
... LastLast
  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoldor View Post
    You should have four pieces of 522 when attempting this guy. There is a reason you get friendly out of the gate.
    you get friendly out of the gate? i'm still neutral working on the second boss. doing trash farming for rep before you kill the first boss should definitely not be a requirement.

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Problem - the average guild was stuck on garalon in T14.

    And given how shitty a fight it is, they still will be, even nerfed.
    I don't really see your point. In previous tiers loads of casual guilds didn't full clear normal before serious nerfs. T14 just didn't get nerfed really until T15.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lothan View Post
    I'm kinda hearing different ways of thinking raids are designed. I've always taken it to believe that normal progression is tuned for normal progression. Meaning if you were 16/16 normal last tier, this tier on normal should be tuned for you. This should be especially true for the first couple bosses. The second boss should be challenging yet doable for low to mid 490 ilvls. If you are over 500 going in, you outgear the content and once you get mechanics it should be pretty straightforward for the first few bosses. On 10 man, Horridon is likely overtuned I would say. My group was just at or slightly over 500 ilvl going in and are finding him extremely challenging. We will still get it down since we are getting close, but I don't see how this boss would be possible on 10 man in the low 490's which is where I think it should be tuned for as the second boss of a 12 boss tier.

    As a general rule of thumb, a heroic focused guild should be outgearing and killing the first bosses of a new normal tier fairly easily. Otherwise normal mode guilds will be forced into heroics for basic gearing progression which doesn't make any sense to me.
    The first bosses in here are not tuned to 500+, there is just no way. The only thing going on here is that like with T14, normal modes require actual work for normal mode guilds. It isn't DS with a bunch of normal mode loot pinatas. You have to learn the mechanics and then practice them enough to get decent execution. Gear may help, but that isn't the problem.

    Also low 490s seems like an exaggeration for the people that should be in here. Your raid should be averaging ~1.4 ilvl 522 pieces a person just from the neck, loot off Jin, and coins. The only way I'm seeing low 490s is if you are wearing a majority of LFR and MSV gear which is skipping half a tier. You said normal needs to be tuned under heroic the tier before which is true, but normal shouldn't be easy enough that you can just easily skip half of the previous tier on normal.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothan View Post
    you get friendly out of the gate? i'm still neutral working on the second boss. doing trash farming for rep before you kill the first boss should definitely not be a requirement.
    Three trash clears just to jin'rok's gate + 3 stones quest + 1 Completion of the solo scenario + Jin should easily get your friendly. If you think gear is the issue, this is a solution. Also, you kiled the first boss. So it would be a requirement for boss 2 if you aren't geared enough. Also, killing every boss two days in is also not a game requirement.
    Last edited by Zoldor; 2013-03-07 at 09:35 PM.

  4. #384
    Scarab Lord Anjerith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The apotheosis of all Deserts
    Posts
    4,962
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoldor View Post
    Killing every boss two days in is also not a game requirement.
    They need to make this a tooltip on the loading screen.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoldor View Post
    Three trash clears just to jin'rok's gate + 3 stones quest + 1 Completion of the solo scenario + Jin should easily get your friendly. If you think gear is the issue, this is a solution. Also, you kiled the first boss. So it would be a requirement for boss 2 if you aren't geared enough. Also, killing every boss two days in is also not a game requirement.
    did trash, then jin'rok, then solo scenario, can't find a third stone been stuck at 2 looking for a third and now at 2999 neutral and can't get to friendly just on trash.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    I don't really see your point. In previous tiers loads of casual guilds didn't full clear normal before serious nerfs. T14 just didn't get nerfed really until T15.



    The first bosses in here are not tuned to 500+, there is just no way. The only thing going on here is that like with T14, normal modes require actual work for normal mode guilds. It isn't DS with a bunch of normal mode loot pinatas. You have to learn the mechanics and then practice them enough to get decent execution. Gear may help, but that isn't the problem.

    Also low 490s seems like an exaggeration for the people that should be in here. Your raid should be averaging ~1.4 ilvl 522 pieces a person just from the neck, loot off Jin, and coins. The only way I'm seeing low 490s is if you are wearing a majority of LFR and MSV gear which is skipping half a tier. You said normal needs to be tuned under heroic the tier before which is true, but normal shouldn't be easy enough that you can just easily skip half of the previous tier on normal.
    More or less. I think guilds are believing that since a new tier is out, you should be able to just jump ahead like the other expansions, and roll face.

    This is how raiding used to be, you needed those item drops from the other tiers you didn't complete yet, and you completed them before you went to the next. It's called progression, and not just progression meaning only the current tier. Those other dungeons still exist, and Blizzard even made them easier too. Go do 'em.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zoldor View Post
    Also, killing every boss two days in is also not a game requirement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anjerith View Post
    They need to make this a tooltip on the loading screen.
    LOL this

  7. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothan View Post
    did trash, then jin'rok, then solo scenario, can't find a third stone been stuck at 2 looking for a third and now at 2999 neutral and can't get to friendly just on trash.
    You can push to friendly doing the 3 stones quest. You'll be friendly in week one with 4 pieces of 522. There should be no complaints about doing this as someone who feels they are entitled to be passed boss 2 in the first couple days. I would check your dps as well. All your response to is two sentences of my post. Are your DPS doing the interrupts and maintaining dps? Refine your strat and I bet you end up just fine. Using an online guide written by people who clear 16/16H or a full heroic clear each tier these guys assume your other players are at their level. Keep refining I bet you get it.

    Again, if you really thought you should be 1/4 of the way done with the raid right away. Then your GM should have done 3 trash clears out of the gate so that when you kill Jin you would be friendly. This is called maxing. It would have given every raid member near 4 pieces of 522, people that do things like that clear farther into raids. You can't feel entitled if you aren't totally maxing. If you are just a normal regular guild Jin was there to get you into the new raid, get a kill get friendly and let you start working the mechanics of the second fight and get some stabs and go back and get those sha-touched weapons folks are missing still etc.
    Last edited by Zoldor; 2013-03-07 at 09:42 PM.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoldor View Post
    You can push to friendly doing the 3 stones quest. You'll be friendly in week one with 4 pieces of 522. There should be no complaints about doing this as someone who feels they are entitled to be passed boss 2 in the first couple days. I would check your dps as well. All your response to is two sentences of my post. Are your DPS doing the interrupts and maintaining dps? Refine your strat and I bet you end up just fine. Using an online guide written by people who clear 16/16H or a full heroic clear each tier these guys assume your other players are at their level. Keep refining I bet you get it.
    Oh I know we'll get it. I said we're close and should get a kill soon. I'm not worried about getting the kill myself. I just feel it's a little overtuned for guilds that are less geared which is where I think it should be tuned for as the second boss on normal.

  9. #389
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Northern Finland
    Posts
    442
    I thought you get friendly with the first boss killed like Blizzard said, now im stuck in 1500 into neutral untill sundays raid :E Again pretty idiotic from Blizz to say you get friendly from first boss which frankly didnt happen.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothan View Post
    Oh I know we'll get it. I said we're close and should get a kill soon. I'm not worried about getting the kill myself. I just feel it's a little overtuned for guilds that are less geared which is where I think it should be tuned for as the second boss on normal.
    It is so they can overlap content and stretch it out. Nah, think of DS even in DS if you hadn't finished FL and were undergeared for DS, somehow, Zonozz, Yor saj were really tough second fights. Until nerfs and changes went in or you were actually correctly geared at full FL normal gear. If you had heroic FL gear you could walk through easily to the actual DPS race. So fight two is commonly there to make you gear and prep for new mechanics. They are normally mechanic heavy fights as well. I bet next week guilds move passed it pretty easily, people will give better strats than PTR. Even here the difference between people having trouble and people who passed it literally is the people who passed it mention their DPS interrupting and maintaining DPS. And the people loosing are basically saying its because of having to dispell. Well if the spell that needs to be dispelled is coming out less and less it makes it easier to heal. Next week it'll be a cakewalk for most folks.

  11. #391
    Scarab Lord Anjerith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The apotheosis of all Deserts
    Posts
    4,962
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortalomena View Post
    I thought you get friendly with the first boss killed like Blizzard said, now im stuck in 1500 into neutral untill sundays raid :E Again pretty idiotic from Blizz to say you get friendly from first boss which frankly didnt happen.
    It's more idiotic to showup at a club as a new member and expect them to give you every benefit that a 30 year vet should expect to get.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  12. #392
    IDK if I think it felt overtuned, Im in one of those guilds that only have 3/6 MSV heroic kills and Im just 491 ilvl. Seemed to me that once you get a hang of the adds and the interrupts it'll be a kill. But its safe to say most bosses would be a lot easier to kill if we had like full valor-upgraded BiS heroic-gear that most of the top-guilds have.

    Though I dont think gear>skill but it sure would be nice to have really good gear to clear content once in a while.
    [email protected] | 8gb RAM | Geforce GTX 660 OC | 120gb SSD
    Druid (Main)World first 9000/9000HC 10minutes/week

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortalomena View Post
    I thought you get friendly with the first boss killed like Blizzard said, now im stuck in 1500 into neutral untill sundays raid :E Again pretty idiotic from Blizz to say you get friendly from first boss which frankly didnt happen.
    Punish trash. The quest turnins will push you into friendly. As of now that rep applies like boss rep, not like trash rep. So you can get it if you just grab trash kills till like 2500 and then turn in the quests/solo scenario and you'll be friendly prior to raid with time to enchant and reforge.

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoldor View Post
    Also, killing every boss two days in is also not a game requirement.


    There is absolutely no way that this would make sense to any competitive raider.

    Its also veeeery easy to say that when you're already comfortable at the top, but when you're sequestered out of relevance with almost no chance of fighting your way back up in time to be in the top 10 it really kinda sucks. That doesn't mean we're gonna stop fighting, just means a higher turn over rate due to progression and having to try to replace people with less than stellar progression to sell your guild with. Life at the top has its drawbacks, but by and large is much easier

  15. #395
    I will say though they probably made it quite a pain to figure out where to tune it with that upgrade system on top of the different ilvls already in place between the first raid and the second/third raids. Guess they had to decide whether to tune it for people with a mix of 489/496 or expect mostly 496, or expect mostly 496 with some upgraded pieces. Probably part of the reason they aren't sure if they'll bring back the upgrade system at all.

  16. #396
    Brewmaster Kiry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,255
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoldor View Post

    Again, if you really thought you should be 1/4 of the way done with the raid right away. Then your GM should have done 3 trash clears out of the gate so that when you kill Jin you would be friendly. This is called maxing. It would have given every raid member near 4 pieces of 522, people that do things like that clear farther into raids. You can't feel entitled if you aren't totally maxing. If you are just a normal regular guild Jin was there to get you into the new raid, get a kill get friendly and let you start working the mechanics of the second fight and get some stabs and go back and get those sha-touched weapons folks are missing still etc.
    12 bosses on normal. 2nd boss kill = 17% not 25%. We expected at 500 level to be able to clear the 2nd at least.

    If we theorize that the LFR requirement is 480, then the normal requirement is probably 490 - 495. 2nd boss doesn't appear to be 490 content for 10 man. Again, most if not all of the frustration in this thread is from the 10 mans. Which appears to be overtuned either in mob number, mob health or what disease, ability or etc they throw out.
    Playing
    WildStar -Mechari Medic, Draken Stalker
    Diablo: RoS
    GW2 - Ranger

  17. #397
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,869
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    More or less. I think guilds are believing that since a new tier is out, you should be able to just jump ahead like the other expansions, and roll face.

    This is how raiding used to be, you needed those item drops from the other tiers you didn't complete yet, and you completed them before you went to the next. It's called progression, and not just progression meaning only the current tier. Those other dungeons still exist, and Blizzard even made them easier too. Go do 'em.

    It didn't work in TBC, it won't work now.

    Hey ho.
    http://secretgl.wordpress.com/

    Guild Blog for <Debonair> EU, Zenedar.

  18. #398
    Scarab Lord Anjerith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The apotheosis of all Deserts
    Posts
    4,962
    Quote Originally Posted by Judaest View Post
    There is absolutely no way that this would make sense to any competitive raider. Its also veeeery easy to say that when you're already comfortable at the top, but when you're sequestered out of relevance with almost no chance of fighting your way back up in time to be in the top 10 it really kinda sucks. That doesn't mean we're gonna stop fighting, just means a higher turn over rate due to progression and having to try to replace people with less than stellar progression to sell your guild with. Life at the top has its drawbacks, but by and large is much easier
    Most raiders, and I am sorry but this is absolutely true - or we wouldn't have LFR - are not competitive raiders.

    They are competitive in their guild, and sometimes even on their server, although this is more personal competition that is projected onto other people and Guilds. They are NOT competitive in a world-wide sense.

    All the proof that I really need for this is that this thread is about people that can't kill Horridon due to their inability to pull the DPS they need on the adds. It isn't a "I need this much ilvl to progress" thing, if you raided regularly (which a competitive raider would have done) up until this patch, you have the gear you need to down Horridon.

    Also, "Life at the Top", I have been there and done that, back when the option was "25 or go to hell", it is not easier by any stretch of the imagination to be at "the top". Sure, maybe the mindless toady DPS may think it is, but your officers and raid leaders know otherwise. Being prepared to hit the patch running requires a full-time jobs worth of research on a weekly basis until your progression is done - if you want to aim for a server or world first and maintain it.
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Gold and the 'need' for it in-game is easily one of the most overblown mindsets in this community.

  19. #399
    Best Kitten Simca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    9,338
    Any "Fight was a joke. 1shot it." comments will be infracted past this point (unless you explain in-depth that you're a <500 geared raid). It's absolutely useless to this thread and everyone in it to know that 16/16H T14 raiders are one-shotting content that they significantly outgear and outskill.

    This thread is not directed at those people; they're welcome to be helpful but post constructively.
    Global Moderator | Forum Guidelines

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Judaest View Post
    There is absolutely no way that this would make sense to any competitive raider.

    Its also veeeery easy to say that when you're already comfortable at the top, but when you're sequestered out of relevance with almost no chance of fighting your way back up in time to be in the top 10 it really kinda sucks. That doesn't mean we're gonna stop fighting, just means a higher turn over rate due to progression and having to try to replace people with less than stellar progression to sell your guild with. Life at the top has its drawbacks, but by and large is much easier
    Well yeah, but no die hard serious raider is all that stuck on Horridon normal mode. According to wowprogress no one in the top 1000 guilds is stuck on boss 2 (most of the on 4 before the weekend). I got tired of going back from here. Of course a competitive raider would grasp that statements context. They also won't be complaining that boss 2 is overtuned.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •