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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    That blue post adds nothing to what I said. Yeah the ptr players are probably better on average than your random guild, so? The main point of ptr is mechanics and like your quote said they use some estimation to tune the things appropriately. So it makes sense to swing a little towards the generous side with the ilvl on ptr so the mechanics can get tested and enough of the fight can be done so they have data to make the estimates. Your post also mentions ptr pick up groups being often below the target threshold which is also goes towards them being on the generous side with the ilvl so those people can test also.
    You misinterpret what they're saying. They're saying PTR raiders > normal raiders on live > PUGs on live. The PTR raiders who test the bosses are more skilled and organized than typical raiders so they have to tune down the mechanics for live, but not so much that pugs can faceroll them.

    They aren't swinging things easier on PTR, they're saying PTR is harder than live because it is adjusted for more skilled players. Yes, they're testing it in 502 gear which for the last few bosses on PTR this would be swinging for the generous side. But for the first few bosses, this is swinging for the harsh side because normal raiders don't have 502 ilvl coming in nor do they have the skill/coordination of the PTR testers.

    EDIT: It's not to dump on normal raiders, it's just that PTR raid testers are a self-selecting group that tend to be HM raiders looking to get a jump on the new bosses.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-03-08 at 09:29 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  2. #542
    Looks like I did misunderstand the pick up group line, but that doesn't really change anything. It doesn't matter that normal raiders don't have 502. The blue you just quoted explains that they use estimation for the tuning of normal modes. That means they don't actually need to set ptr ilvl at exactly what their goal is. And again, if they undershoot and its absolutely brutal then they waste testing time because they will have to adjust it so the mechanics can be tested later.

    You are using my terms differently than I was. I'm saying 502 is generous because it is more than you actually need to do them if they are at the level the designers think they are at. You are saying it is generous because a normal mode raid isn't going to have that much, which again doesn't matter because they clearly said they used estimation for the tuning.

  3. #543
    Brewmaster Kiry's Avatar
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    Horridon fight sort of feels like they just took mob health, did the math and viola it's a 10 man. That no quality check was done on the number of mobs and the number of available dispells to prevent just that - class stacking or frustration

    I'm on a large server, and you can see the progress trend. nearly all the 25mans are 3+, majority of the 10 mans are 1. Meanwhile, people continue to vent and express frustration over this boss.

    Our 10 man guild killed it last night. It was messy but was kill after many different strats all from this thread. So - thanks guys for continuing to offer suggestions out to other guilds.
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  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by darksider8x View Post

    Core points:
    The 3 main adds and the dinomancer have fixed spots where they land, which seemed identical for each door.
    Same goes for their order.

    1 lands right in front of the door alone, then 2 land together on the left and right.

    The main aim of the dps should be ignore everything else normally and nuke the 1st add down as soon as possible (ideally before the next 2 spawn). This makes it very easy and reduces the number of spawns.

    Mark a skull and start dpsing one of 2 new ones that drop down later, TILL the dino spawns. When dino spawns switch to it and nuke to 50%, after he goes dino form switch back to skull, MC boss using orb whoever is supposed to pref a healer if 3 heal, and then take the mobs down. You DO NOT need to dps boss much at all in these phases so just focus on the adds.


    I'll split details for each door so it is easier to follow:

    1st door, sand trap adds
    adds coming from the door are not a big threat so dps them casually, the OT just needs to make sure to face the basilisks away n pick them up
    nuke 1st sandtrap add, nuke 2nd one, switch to dino, back to 2nd, kill, then 3rd, then clear the rest of the trash, done

    2nd, poison adds
    door adds charge n put dots so annoying but not a big threat
    assign interrupts for the venom priests, if you can kill 1st priest before next 2 land u just need 2 interruptors
    effusions should be nuked asap as they are more dangerous then the priests and have low hp, people seem to underestimate them (u can cleave if ure dps is enough, they just drop really fast but cast everything the venom priest does)
    you only need 1 interrupt per priest, and if you are nuking effusions fast enough you should never get high poison stacks

    3rd door, toughest of the 4
    the small adds from the door are deadly due to their stacking dot
    ignore champions, nuke the warriors which have low hp
    when first frost mob spawns, lust and nuke it down, it will carry forward into the next 2 frost adds and ideally you should be able to kill most of the adds off in the lust
    a DK can pop ARMY here which will take care of the champions/warriors stacking plague debuff (makes it much easier)

    4th door, just kill adds dont stand in totems, simple

    Last phase, boss is taking 200% more dmg so nuke away. Jalak when it spawn has 17mil hp and drops really fast, use all raid defensive cds you have during this time and save tank cds for the phase after

    When Jalak is dead, Horridon hits harder so just rotate tank cds and taunt etc, call externals, zerg the boss. THE END

    edit: quick post at work, so ignore the grammar and shit, if something doesn't make sense feel free to ask
    Re-quoting this post because it is extremely helpful imo and close to how we do it. Speaking of 10 man here which can be at an extreme disadvantage due to makeup. We killed it with our raid group in around 12 attempts i think, ~495 iLvL, and we got better and better the more we did the attempts and learned the fight.

    Will add a couple notes to the post quoted.

    - We tanked horridon parrallel to each door about 20 yards away from the edge of the oval walkway in front of the door to give the add tank some more room.
    - Have your dps who are responsible for the Dinomancer make a macro to target him in case they are not adept at target switching.
    - assign a person to do the channeling on the orb

    G1 - If you have a disc priest, mark them, have the group rotate near the disc when the debuff is going out. If not the 3 healers will need to be dispelling on CD to keep up.
    If you have a lock and are slow at making the transition from G1 to G2 use the portal it can help.

    G2 – Learn the areas where the priest drop.
    The first Priest needs to die asap, everyone needs to target it and kill it. This priest will need 1 interupter to take care of its volley (Use your longest Cd interrupt (mage c sect) or a healer interrupt. When the next 2 priests drop down mark them with a skull and an x (assign interrupters to these mobs and have them focused. If you are having dps issues on this phase save your 3-5 minute CDs for this point. Once the priests are marked your dps priority is Effusions  Dino to 50%  Priests, but skull and X need to be interrupted during the other targets. If you have extra interrupters they could try to get the effusions volley if one tries to go off. This method you should not get higher than 4 stacks of the poison debuff (60k ~ few seconds), once the door is smashed finish up the priest and drag the remaing bloodlords to next door and start dispelling the poison (or let it fade if it is not high.

    G3 – Mark a person to stack on, stack the raid up.
    Burn warriors asap they have 800k and do the debuff
    Once tank has the warlord burn heroism and start to dps.
    Group moves together out of the orbs. Cleaves on the warlords will destroy the warriors during heroism.
    Have anyone who can cure disease do so, monk dps/tanks, pally dps/tank, SP
    Kite out of the frost orbs toward the final gate
    Warriors can be stunned/frozen btw
    See DK army quote above, thats an awesome tip.

    G4 – Spread out 6 yards
    Interupt flame casters, they are stunnable
    Try to kill 1 bear at a time, then the caster who gets off of it
    Survive until door is crashed

    Last phase
    Pull mini boss (17mil) to horridon and burn him while cleaving the rhino
    Raid damage will go out from the War God add and get higher as time goes on so use whatever raid cds u have left as well as personal CDs
    Once wargod dies horridon will start on the tank, tank cds overheal tank and burn boss

    We took horridon into last phase still at ~75% and was able to beat him 1min ahead of enrage.

    Survive the adds and you are rewarded with a ridiculously easy final phase.

    Good luck, this fight is not easy in 495 gear or less. Our second raid will be working on it this weekend in ~ 490 gear, I will report back how we do.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Looks like I did misunderstand the pick up group line, but that doesn't really change anything. It doesn't matter that normal raiders don't have 502. The blue you just quoted explains that they use estimation for the tuning of normal modes. That means they don't actually need to set ptr ilvl at exactly what their goal is. And again, if they undershoot and its absolutely brutal then they waste testing time because they will have to adjust it so the mechanics can be tested later.

    You are using my terms differently than I was. I'm saying 502 is generous because it is more than you actually need to do them if they are at the level the designers think they are at. You are saying it is generous because a normal mode raid isn't going to have that much, which again doesn't matter because they clearly said they used estimation for the tuning.
    Yes, I know it's all based on estimation. They prefer to to tune bosses conservatively on live because they will only do adjustments to make bosses easier. However, this mostly applies to later bosses because gear from the earlier bosses make them easier. The earlier bosses tend to be tuned more generously to allow people to gear up for the later bosses. Just look at Jin'rokh, that was way overtuned on PTR with testers hitting the soft enrage. On live, this boss gets killed without hitting the 4th pool by people in less than 502 ilvl.

    Because WoL shows the success rates for Horridon to be significantly lower than the bosses immediately before and after, it suggests they overtuned it or undertuned those other bosses.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  6. #546

  7. #547
    we killed him and my guild is 16/16 normal and 3/16 hc so non of us +500 ilvl i hope this videos help u


  8. #548
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by petesakan View Post
    Go to that log.... go to Creatures.... notice something missing? Yea a log where they take the last 1 min with full CD's and the boss taking 200% dmg is totaly going to help people in this thread...

  9. #549
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    To Minaa, thanks for the video, but you are a 25-man grp killing it. The point is that in 25m you have buffs/debuffs covered as well as 3x the dps per mob that spwns on top of dispels and interrupts. It makes the fight bit more easier (not saying that your video is useless, it is not)

    Lets say that in 10 man you have 5 DPS for 2 mobs (aka the priests in p2) and for all the effusions in p2. In 25 man you haev 17 DPS for 2 priests and all the effusions. That makes all the difference. The raw pewpew power on top of lot of people who can make up other people mistakes make the fight more easier.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2013-03-09 at 12:01 AM.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING for WoD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    @Akylios
    I have a serious problem with thinking of anything since even WotLK at MC level or even ZG/BWL level. That level means to me that it is tuned so that 25%+ of your raid can sit there and play absolutely horrendously and you can kill the bosses. I did MC and BWL and ZG (went into aq40 and died quite badly) and I'd say about 25-40% of the people in for those kills played like crap (as in just as bad as all of those lfr horror stories). You just needed enough people to do the important stuff.
    Well, you couldn't have 25-40% of your raid play horrendously if you wanted to make good pace. While all the content could no doubt eventually have been cleared with such a group, it would probably have been at a painfully slow pace. I do know the old raids gradually got nerfed though, which probably helped speed things up a bit, but even so then there are encounters in both BWL and AQ40 that would probably be extremely infuriating with such a large proportion of bad players. To my knowledge they never really nerfed Naxxramas in the same way they did the other raid instances. Many encounters would probably have been all but impossible without a truly dedicated group. But it's been a while, so I have a very hard time discussing individual encounters at anything but the most basic level.

    That being said, most of the good guilds I remember had a very good core group of around 20-25 players who raided together for a very long time, while filling the rest of the spots up with players at a lower skill level who often came and went much more regularly. How fast and far you managed to progress depended not only on the 20-25 man core group, but the other raiders who filled up the rest of the spots as well. If they were terrible, the pace of your progression would reflect this. It's probably very similar to 25 man raids today, except at a slightly larger scale. (Honestly, the hardest part about 40 man raiding was the management of the whole thing. To be an officer in an efficient raiding guild was like having a part time job. I'm not even remotely joking. Being able to raid with a small group of people is probably the single best addition to WoW I've experienced since returning to the game. It gives me everything I want from raiding, with only a fraction of the management hassles I had grown used to.)

    At the end of the day though, my only frame of reference is Classic and MOP raids. I could perhaps have taken better examples if I had played the other expansions, but back in classic, MC was basically just a dungeon where you had to learn some very basic mechanics and after you nailed those, the bosses died. Ragnaros was a bit different, in that he was an actual DPS check. The hardest mechanic I can think of from T14 normal modes was the tank mechanic on Stone Guards. Beyond that I can't really think of any particularly challenging normal mode mechanic. Garalon was a bit different though, as he was an actual DPS check. This is why I compared the normal modes to MC, simply because they reminded me more of MC than any other dungeon. While the mechanics in BWL and ZG weren't terribly complicated either, the numbers were much, much more finely tuned than in MC. This is why I felt like comparing three of the Heroic fights to BWL and ZG. Heroic Will of the Emperor for instance only really adds a single new mechanic to the normal mode version of the fight, the Titan Sparks. How you deal with the sparks is pretty straightforward, but the hard part of the fight is that the numbers are simply much more finely tuned than on normal mode. Your DPS really needs to get all the adds down in a timely manner. Your healers really need to be at the top of their game and so on and so forth. This is very much how release-state BWL and ZG worked.

    But yeah, perhaps there are some WotLK raid instances that would make for a better comparison, but this is the best I can do not having raided for 6 years straight until this January. I hope you at least understood the point I was trying to make in my previous post, even if you don't agree with the examples I used. If not, then at least you got an old fart's perspective on Classic raiding... which may or may not have been of interest to you.

    I guess I'll end this discussion here though, as it doesn't add a single thing to the discussion of helpful tactics for bringing down Horridon, which is what this thread has evolved into.

  11. #551
    i didn't play 10men but i think the num of the adds in 25men will be x2 10men so i think its the same

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    To Minaa, thanks for the video, but you are a 25-man grp killing it. The point is that in 25m you have buffs/debuffs covered as well as 3x the dps per mob that spwns on top of dispels and interrupts. It makes the fight bit more easier (not saying that your video is useless, it is not)

    Lets say that in 10 man you have 5 DPS for 2 mobs (aka the priests in p2) and for all the effusions in p2. In 25 man you haev 17 DPS for 2 priests and all the effusions. That makes all the difference. The raw pewpew power on top of lot of people who can make up other people mistakes make the fight more easier.
    Yeah and you need the 3x dps because they have 3x the hp. You need 2 freaking interrupts. If you have even 1 melee you have that because you need a tank over there anyway. There is no way the number of things that need dispelled are the same in 10m, you get more crap cast in 25m. You can also pretty much have every buff/debuff in 10m if you have a good comp so that isn't an excuse.

    And your comparison is off. If you are 3 healing, thats the equiv of 7 healing for 25m so 16 dps versus 15 dps and the mobs have triple the hp. Its perfectly balanced in terms of the dps part so stop whining about that.

    The only thing maybe easier about it in 25m is that 25m guilds can probably stack MW monks easier. There is nothing from stopping a 10 from running 2 MW monks though. And I doubt most 25m guilds actually cared enough to stack them.

    Edit:
    So you 10m guys will stop spouting a bunch of BS about how its the same dispels but 25m have more dispellers:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4031&e=4550
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=6177&e=6703

    Just from 2 random logs I picked form the rankings list with roughly the same fight duration. 10m had 31 diseases and 25m had 75. Plus every poison dot that you don't have a monk cd for is ticking on 2.5x as many people.
    Last edited by Sesshou; 2013-03-09 at 03:41 AM.

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Yeah and you need the 3x dps because they have 3x the hp. You need 2 freaking interrupts. If you have even 1 melee you have that because you need a tank over there anyway. There is no way the number of things that need dispelled are the same in 10m, you get more crap cast in 25m. You can also pretty much have every buff/debuff in 10m if you have a good comp so that isn't an excuse.

    And your comparison is off. If you are 3 healing, thats the equiv of 7 healing for 25m so 16 dps versus 15 dps and the mobs have triple the hp. Its perfectly balanced in terms of the dps part so stop whining about that.

    The only thing maybe easier about it in 25m is that 25m guilds can probably stack MW monks easier. There is nothing from stopping a 10 from running 2 MW monks though. And I doubt most 25m guilds actually cared enough to stack them.

    Edit:
    So you 10m guys will stop spouting a bunch of BS about how its the same dispels but 25m have more dispellers:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4031&e=4550
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=6177&e=6703

    Just from 2 random logs I picked form the rankings list with roughly the same fight duration. 10m had 31 diseases and 25m had 75. Plus every poison dot that you don't have a monk cd for is ticking on 2.5x as many people.
    It's worth pointing out that poison, disease, curse, and chain lightning all do more damage per tick or hit on 25 man than 10. 50% more for the poison and disease, ~60% for the chain lightning, and just slightly higher than equal on the curse. Poison obviously scales with number of players, and I think the curse does too (it usually just seems to be afflicting ~5 of our melee, assuming it wouldn't be that high for 10man, but maybe someone else can comment on that). Despite that, I would still agree the fight seems harder on 10, due to fewer options with interrupts / dispels, larger portion of the raid targeted and diseased by the Drakkari, and being less likely to have a MW monk to trivialize the poison volley. Number of players per mob is only a meaningful argument for things like that, not for the actual dps numbers required to kill them, as the health is correctly adjusted between difficulties.

    We haven't actually killed him yet on 25 but we have it figured out (dps has been low and a couple always end up getting themselves killed). As others have said in the thread, it's all about interrupts, dispels, and target priorities. I would like to add that handling Charge is pretty important as well - the raid member needs to be getting out and away (preferably towards Horridon) if he is targeted by the charge. There is plenty of time to react to this, and not only will it enable the rest of the raid to continue with their respective tasks, but there will be many fewer deaths due to people forgetting to run out of the double swipe or panicking and running into something else bad, like Living Poison or Lightning Totems.

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by Minaa View Post
    i didn't play 10men but i think the num of the adds in 25men will be x2 10men so i think its the same
    The number of adds is the same for both.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    I'm determined to someday make Med'an awesome. (MickyNeilson)

    ´So.. sorry to bring this up but..you know that .."thing" (Med'an).. is that "thing" cannon still?
    ...as much have some have wished otherwise, yes. (Loreology)

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Clogaline View Post
    Despite that, I would still agree the fight seems harder on 10, due to fewer options with interrupts / dispels, larger portion of the raid targeted and diseased by the Drakkari, and being less likely to have a MW monk to trivialize the poison volley. Number of players per mob is only a meaningful argument for things like that, not for the actual dps numbers required to kill them, as the health is correctly adjusted between difficulties.
    Why does any of that matter? Fewer options with interrupts? Irrelevant. You need TWO. You guaranteed have a tank who is tanking the crap anyway. If you are running with a really, really non standard comp that has 0 melee, well I guess that sucks, but who the hell runs 0 melee... Whats this larger portion of the raid crap? Its basically the same portion of the raid (and poison is still 100% but 2.5x more people) if you looked at those links, and yeah you have more options for dispelling them because theres a crap ton more.

    Less likely to be running a monk doesn't mean something is harder. You can cheese it with a monk on both difficulties. Don't have one? Bring an alt if you want to cheese it. You do not need one, and I highly doubt blizzard tuned either difficulty under the assumption you had a MW monk (or more than one). That isn't really a valid point for the encounter about 10 vs 25, its about monk vs no monk and the size of the raid is absolutely irrelevant.

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    So you 10m guys will stop spouting a bunch of BS about how its the same dispels but 25m have more dispellers:
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4031&e=4550
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=6177&e=6703
    Its interesting how despite 25s have 2.5x as many people the disease only did 1.5x as much damage on 25 man. Its almost like its harder on 10 man.

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by Minaa View Post
    i didn't play 10men but i think the num of the adds in 25men will be x2 10men so i think its the same
    and that's where the problem is, it's same amount of adds.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    Its interesting how despite 25s have 2.5x as many people the disease only did 1.5x as much damage on 25 man. Its almost like its harder on 10 man.
    Poisons are only getting out on 25man if ppl miss interupts too, 16 ppl to interupt adds in 25 man vs 5 in 10man. So 25 man have 3 times the ppl to interupt. I agree, 25 man looks easier, but meh.

  19. #559
    Bloodsail Admiral Neliah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uko View Post
    Compared to how the first boss was a glorified trash mob in dificulty I would say it ramped up rather quickly.
    Yeah the first boss got killed really fast for my team aswell, but on the second one we're really having issues keeping people alive. Not only with all the AoE/Spike damage , , the sandtraps made it even harder to get near the people that needed (A LOT) of dispells and heals. Miss one dispell if the person was too far away and it would tick completely out of control and people would just start to die. I usually don't complain about boss mechanics, but this boss it quite retarded considering him being the 2'nd boss on normal difficulty :/
    We run with 3 healers on the fight, Holy priest, Druid and A paladin (10m). Symbiosis goes on the paladin, and none of us seem to be able to keep up with so many dispells. They're literally impossible to heal though since they stack and hurt even when you only have 1 stack, not to mention the 30 second duration of it.

    We're having another go again tomorrow, hopefully some of the suggestions in this thread can help us out.

  20. #560
    This was probably mentioned somewhere in the 28 page thread, but I didn't read it all.

    The four doors are very straightforward.
    -Dispel debuffs
    -Don't stand in stupid
    -Kill adds according to priority

    DPS Priority should be as follows:
    -Dinomancer when it spawns, interrupt as well
    -Adds that only spawn 3 per door, refered to below as Elite
    -Adds that spawn consistently
    -Horridon

    Have 1 assigned person to use the orb. Only use the orb when the 3 Elite adds are dead, or very close to dead. On the move to the next door, clean up the remaining adds and try to get some DPS time on Horridon if possible.

    Once all 4 doors have been destroyed, move Horridon to the middle of the room, stack on his side, and begin to DPS. When Jalak spawns, tank and kill him asap. Switch back to Horridon, and Bloodlust. Once he enrages, it is not a wipe. We hit enrage with about 25% health left on him. Simply adopt the Heroic Chimaeron strategy, and spread out. Those with highest aggro run to the far side of the room, and drop threat (if possible) before he gets there, or die. Salv the melee DPS. Because of his double strike, there is a lot of time when he's not DPSing anything at all (he just one-shots), and there is no damage at all going out, healers can also DPS.

    Hope that helps.

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