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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    It was overtuned. I guess that answers the thread's original question.
    Looks like they thought the mechanics in general were too hard I guess as they are nerfing 25m also. I think they should have held off on nerfing until the first half of lfr was out and people had more valor for 522s though.

  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Gratz We had basically the same problems as everyone - poisons on door 2, adds on door 3, slowly progressing. I think that with some more time, maybe only an evening, we would have downed him.

    Anyway, i think the nerf has its reason; i like the fight mechanics and i like how it's tightly tuned for a 10man (also i assume some fights are harder for 25man due to mechanics), but still it was too much for healers having to burn a lot of mana for dispels. Well, if the nerf is actually live, this evening we could get a kill.
    This is my sentiment as well. Raiding with a casual group 6 hours a week ranging from ilvl 485-495 (only three sha kills as a group so far) the fight was just to tightly tuned in that it not only required strict mechanics on not missing an interrupt and very coordinated assisted damage but that it also required a lot of damage in general.

    Tightly tuned bosses are great and fun but when on the second biggest server in the US (Mal'ganis) only 4 of the 25 man guilds cleared the whole instance yet there were 7 25 man guilds that finished the last tier 16/16H, clearly implying that there are many roadblocks for a casual guild, let alone a relatively well progressed guild and having such a roadblock as only the second boss when the Dark Animus, Lei Shen, Durumu, etc. are all still looming ahead is a bit rough so it's a nice change, in my opinion.

  3. #623
    We killed horridon prenerf in an altgroup, around ilvl 490 or so for everyone in 10man.

    The key to this fight is interrupts. If you do that properly, it'll be dead. The moment a dinomancer spawns, that one is prioritized. And dodging ice balls, etc., well, that's pretty much normal, and if your dps is not doing that, you will wipe on it.

    I think Horridon was fairly easy, we were dreading it with all these reports, but it was very doable. The nerf is still justified IMO, to preserve difficulty smoothness. Megaera is another one that makes no sense in the current curve, but ah well.

  4. #624
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    A very dumb question (laugh if you want, I don't care ^^). If you tank the adds which of the adds you always should have on you beside the big things like warlords and priests and the 'mancer? I know that the small shits that run around on p3 have random aggro table. Which of the adds actually hurt the DPS when they have their aggro (aka what should you taunt with prio off from healer/DPS).

    We're not wiping cause of the adds running amok in raid (well some people take pointless damage due to that), but other silly things. Just want to get the adds on the tanks, not on everyone else, and limit the pointless damage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  5. #625
    We had our first real attempt at Horridon last night. After reading this thread, I am a little confused:

    I keep reading that people are either stunning or interrupting the wastewalkers on door 1. I am a rogue and tried to Kidney Shot and Kick their casts of the DoT multiple times and it never worked. My guess is that this is not possible, and the proper strat is to kill them fast so that dispelling doesn't far so far behind that people start dying.

    We got to door 3 once, but the transitions were messy and we had early deaths. The plan was:
    Nuke the first Wastewalker before the group of 2 come down.
    Mark one and nuke it until Dinomancer comes down.
    Switch to Dinomancer, clicky clicky.
    Cleanup adds on transition.

    The problem with this is that when switching to the dinomancer most of the time both Wastewalkers were still up, and dispel's fell behind and people died. I am guessing it might be better for us to stay on the Wastewalkers and burn them down first, while cleaving the Dinomancer. If the debuff was interruptable it wouldn't be so bad, but with a Holy Paladin and Resto Shaman we seem to really struggle.

    Second door actually went pretty smooth when we had most people up, as we were able to do the same burn strategy on the Venom Priests but we WERE able to interrupt almost all of their poison volley casts. By the time we transitioned to the third door (again, sloppy) a tank died so we wiped.

    I honestly feel like so far our biggest struggles is a smooth transition from phase 1. Are we missing something obvious? We didn't have a lot of issues with the stun from Basilisk, although we don't have anyone specifically focusing them as has been suggested in this thread. We could have our hunter switch to always burning them down, but then that missing DPS on the Wastewalkers is going to hurt our dispellers also.

    We are going to have another 3 hour session on it tonight, but figured I'd see if fundamentally we are missing something or if it's just an execution problem. (I feel like our DPS should be ok hypothetically.. We downed Jin'Rokh right as the fourth pool was spawning, so we were way ahead of that enrage timer.)

  6. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by Rigapples View Post
    We are going to have another 3 hour session on it tonight, but figured I'd see if fundamentally we are missing something or if it's just an execution problem. (I feel like our DPS should be ok hypothetically.. We downed Jin'Rokh right as the fourth pool was spawning, so we were way ahead of that enrage timer.)
    I know it can vary based on composition, but my raid can kill Jin'Rokh right as the 3rd pool spawns, and I feel like our dps is -just- good enough to keep up with Horridon adds. Any less and we'd be overwhelmed.

  7. #627
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Horridon door 3 was horrible w/o BL and just 2 persons and the tank being able to remove disease... Today we have BL (I hope), but I don't know how the heck we get pass 3rd disease door, as rdruid can put symbiosis on prot. pala for disease removal skill and the pala (he will be tanking horridon) can dispel as well. But that is it, thats all the disease removals we have. And you really can't rely on tank to dispel someone. He will dispel someone if they have high stacks but no consistent dispelling....

    Is there any point even to go head bash today? OR do we just have to pop BL+all CD when 2nd warlords come and just hope that we get the door down before we get overwhelmed with disease? We actually don't have any good composition for disease removal. As at best times we have monk+rdruid with symbiosis+prot. pala....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  8. #628
    I mentioned the difficulty of this fight on 10 man compared to 25 man to my guild last week when we were having a few issues with it and we all came to the conclusion that any multiple add fight is considerably easier in 25 man simply because you have more people per add, which equals more control/interrupts. Hell, just the fact that you could 3 tank it in 25 man with a minimal dps loss and have a considerably easier time picking up the adds says a lot. They really need to stop making these sort of add fights or figure out something that works. 10 man Emporers is a great example of severely under-tuning a fight, while this fight on 10 man is an example of it being over-tuned, not because of damage, but because of the amount of adds your raid has to control with fewer people. They really need to realize that these sort of execution fights that rely on a specific number of your raiders to execute it correctly is extremely difficult for 10 man in some cases. It puts a lot more stress on the raid when you only have 10 people to deal with 5 adds compared to 25 people dealing with 5.

    We spent an hour or so on this on our first night and then killed it the next night with another hour of attempts without too much issue and gradually gaining progress every time. The primary thing is control, not dps. Interrupting the adds is the most important thing of the entire fight, as it limits the amount of raid damage that goes out. From there it's merely a point of cleaving them down and rinsing and repeating for each door. The final door is a little chaotic simply because of how many adds spawn, but grouping them up and using a tank cooldown, while avoiding the lightning totems, is about all that's required.

  9. #629
    I am seriously confused how you think that isn't enough dispellers. That is 30% of your raid (20% if you don't count the tank)... do you think that you need half your raid able to dispel diseases to be able to do this? Because that is nonsense. Just use some raid cooldowns and personal cooldowns to help out with the damage while you get them taken care of. On 10m it is 20k damage every 3 seconds, so 15 seconds isn't even 25% of someone's hp, in fact a health stone alone will counter about 15 seconds of having that. You do not need half of your raid able to dispel the thing because it is entirely healable so just get rid of it as fast as you are able. And what is your comp because several dps classes can remove their own stuff?

    I'm not saying the 3rd door isn't probably the worst (assuming you don't fail at kicking the 2nd), but do you seriously think everyone that has done this runs with a comp where half the raid can dispel diseases?

  10. #630
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    No I don't assume that you need entire raid full of people to dispel. But last night we had our monk and druid with symbiosis dispelling disease and people still died due to high stacks on door 3 (we had no BL). (Sure on door 1 priest helps out with MD and p2 is not that big of an issue as well)

    setup for tonight:
    guardian/prot. pala
    2x resto druid, 1 resto shaman
    1 hunter, 1 rogue, 2 spriests, 1 fury warrior

    and no, we cannot change it, as others are not available for tonight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  11. #631
    Yeah but 2 should be enough and your comp looks fine (at least for that). The rogue can remove his own when he needs to so you don't need to really worry about dispelling him. You have 2 VE's you can roll for a sizable amount of extra healing and you have an aura mastery. If you use your dispels wisely, that should be fine and you should be able to heal through low stacks with those cd's helping you.

  12. #632
    So have the adds been nerfed twice or only once? The patch notes are a bit vague...

  13. #633
    The Lightbringer Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    No I don't assume that you need entire raid full of people to dispel. But last night we had our monk and druid with symbiosis dispelling disease and people still died due to high stacks on door 3 (we had no BL). (Sure on door 1 priest helps out with MD and p2 is not that big of an issue as well)

    setup for tonight:
    guardian/prot. pala
    2x resto druid, 1 resto shaman
    1 hunter, 1 rogue, 2 spriests, 1 fury warrior

    and no, we cannot change it, as others are not available for tonight.
    We were getting to the 4th door (with one or two deaths) pre nerf with BL on door 3.

    Last night (post nerf) we were struggling on door 3 because no BL because our resto shammy has jacked in raiding due to this overtuning bollocks. For low geared groups it looks to me like BL on door 3 is pretty much mandatory.
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  14. #634
    We're running with a Resto Sham and Holy Pally and a Blood DK and Prot Warrior, we killed it pre-nerf with 5-10 wipes on the 3rd door (3 healing, resto druid added), but once you get past that its a breeze. Last night we 1 shotted it 2 healing after the 15% add nerf, if the 3rd door is the issue, have everyone stack up right in front of the door and just aoe down adds as they come, have you off tank taunt the big adds that drop and hold them to the side of the door ON THE SIDE OF THE 2ND DOOR, so your way to the 4th door isn't obstructed by frozen orbs. You don't have to have everyone switching to the big adds, but should have 1-2 people beginning to burn them down (maybe an ele sham or something) so they die fairly quickly after horridon smashes his head into the door. The adds are honestly 100x harder than the boss. if you just get to the last phase its honestly a joke.

  15. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    Horridon door 3 was horrible w/o BL and just 2 persons and the tank being able to remove disease... Today we have BL (I hope), but I don't know how the heck we get pass 3rd disease door, as rdruid can put symbiosis on prot. pala for disease removal skill and the pala (he will be tanking horridon) can dispel as well. But that is it, thats all the disease removals we have. And you really can't rely on tank to dispel someone. He will dispel someone if they have high stacks but no consistent dispelling....

    Is there any point even to go head bash today? OR do we just have to pop BL+all CD when 2nd warlords come and just hope that we get the door down before we get overwhelmed with disease? We actually don't have any good composition for disease removal. As at best times we have monk+rdruid with symbiosis+prot. pala....
    Tanks should be able to dispel every 8 seconds. Our Brewmaster just replaces a Tiger Palm filler with Detox (mouseover macro recommended).

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Tanks should be able to dispel every 8 seconds. Our Brewmaster just replaces a Tiger Palm filler with Detox (mouseover macro recommended).
    Bears will drop out of form (an lose all rage) by dispelling. It is still doable during double swipe
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    I saw a tauren rolling on mail gear once and when I asked him, he said it was better than what he was wearing.
    Can you believe that? A cow wearing clothes? Ridiculous..

  17. #637
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    We have paladin on Horridon in door 1 and door 3. So he can dispel himself during poisons, beside he was dispelling himself and someone else as well. But well, when I'm tanking the adds (the bear) I rather not switch out form, the troll do hurt you know Before you start on switch tanks for doors, I would like to say, we tried this and I was much better on the frozen orbs.

    But I will tell our rogue to use cloak of shadows (afaik that is the one which drops the bad magic effects) and well both priests and tank will use their raid CD, respectively VE and devo. aura. Thanks for the tips I do hope we progress.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  18. #638
    We killed this boss with an avg ilvl of 494 so I figured I'd throw in how we did it in our group:

    Tanks: Warrior, Paladin
    Heals: Paladin, Druid
    DPS: Mage, Warlock, Hunter, Shadow Priest, Elemental Shaman, Rogue

    Overall Door Phases: We tanked Horridon away from the doors all together, something like O.....X.....B, Where O is the door/add tank/melee, X is where heals and range stacked and B is where the boss/boss tank were. This let us have plenty of room to maneuver and let the add tank pick up adds as they came out. It's also very clear when an add is not on a tank and blowing up heals. Also, once an Dino is burned to 50% and the orb is clicked, the Boss tank should go and taunt/tank the adds to take pressure off the group. For the next 15-20 seconds, the boss won't be hitting anything anyway.

    Overall inbetween door phases: Healers regen mana; use any mana regen abilities such as hymn.

    Door 1: Tank the Wastewalkers and Skirmishers. The basilisks that came out were taunted/kited and nuked down by our hunter quite easily and this prevented any stuns from going out. Our Shadow Priest and heals were dispeling whenever necessary, Paladin (was on adds) dispelled himself, we never had more than 2 stacks of the magic debuff on any target. MD and rogue ability (tricks?) were going off on CD to drive threat to the add tank. After orb is clicked, the whole group started moving to door 2 dragging and burning any left over adds, prioritizing wastewalkers.

    Door 2: Tank swap, warrior tank on adds. Assigned hunter and elemental shaman to nuke down venemous effusions every time they were up (they also were responsible for interrupting them). DPS immediately nukes down first priest that drops. Tank picks up the second and third (drop at the same time), makes one with skull for group to burn. Tank also spec'd into AOE interrupt + pummel covering the first two interrupts needed on the priests. Rogue saved his for Dino interrupt. Tank also dropped Mocking Banner at this point so that add pick up is easy. If done right, no volleys go off, nothing to dispel. At most, you might get 1 stack of volley, which is negligible damage. Paladin tank helps with adds as soon as Horridon is MC'd. Majority of the damage here is the bleeds from the warrior's charges. Just heal through this. Drag adds to Door 3 while finishing them off, prioritizing the poison casters.

    Door 3: Here we tanked Horridon a little closer to the door as we had everyone, heals/range/add tank/melee all stack up at the door and move as a loose group every time a frost orb spawned. The reasoning is that the adds (other than the frozen lords) don't have an agro table and we wanted to keep them grouped up to help with AOE and to ensure proper CC (I'll explain). The DPS used pots here (not heroism) and burned through first frozen lord quickly. Then the add tank marked a second one to focus burn, etc. The 'CC' comes in that the adds without an agro table can be slowed or feared or otherwise rendered unable to damage and inflict their debuff. So our DPS, between burning down frozen lords were throwing out CCs left and right. We wouldn't dispel until someone had 4-5 stacks of the debuff to help save healer mana. Horridon tank taunts a frozen lord to help add tank with the mortal strike debuff as soon as Horridon is MC'd. Drag adds to Door 4 to finish them off prioritizing the frozen lords.

    Door 4: Paladin tanking Horridon, warrior on adds. Had the whole group (minus boss tank) stack on warrior to help pick up adds. Just moved out of totems as they spawned. Prioritized burning down bear adds (careful as the shamans that drop from them don't retain initial threat, the add tank has to taunt them). Kept up interrupts on the flame casters and had our druid dispel the curses that were going out. The adds here didn't hit too hard and as long as we interrupted decently and made sure the tank keet agro on all the adds, we were fine.

    Last Phase: Paladin tank bubbled himself to clear stacks, kept Horridon. Warrior tank ran over to pick up Jalak. Once Jalak was down, had the group loosely stack to one side of Horridon, stacked Jalak on Horridon and use Heroism. Jalak dropped really quickly (heals cycled through raid coold downs anyway as people were stacked), horridon enrages, paladin tank cycles through CDs. Any charge target ran out of the group near the front of the boss to limit Horridon rotations for charge. Warrior tank taunted when Paladin tank ran out of CDs.

    Hope that helps.

  19. #639
    Dreadlord Ogait's Avatar
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    I know this post is meant for people <500 iLevel doing it on normal, but I've a doubt which we're facing on 10H atm and I think it isn't necessary to create a new post to ask this:

    - Anyone know if Ring of Peace from Monks work on these kind of adds?

    Because it's quite an awesome CC to use on this fight
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  20. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by Ogait View Post
    I know this post is meant for people <500 iLevel doing it on normal, but I've a doubt which we're facing on 10H atm and I think it isn't necessary to create a new post to ask this:

    - Anyone know if Ring of Peace from Monks work on these kind of adds?

    Because it's quite an awesome CC to use on this fight
    It works on at least some of them from what I've seen on normal. The disarms seem to reduce melee damage and silence is obvious. Some of the adds seem immune to a lot of stuff though.

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