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  1. #561
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Challenger! View Post
    I do agree with you there, the genre has evolved (or devolved, depending on how you see it) into what it is today, and I'd postulate that this started around the same time the MMO genre was propelled into the mainstream.

    True enough, what I said does delve more into the realm of theory and opinion than anything else. Dailies, raiding, dungeons, and PvP is what makes up World of Warcraft, and those things aside, there is nothing else within WoW. Exploration is kept to a minimum or non-existent, flavor text, as I said earlier, was removed. Many of the things that make an MMO world feel alive, players aside, is either non-existent or was removed.
    Well, what I find so great about WoW is the massive amount of levels of those things.
    Due to several circumstances like work, school and other more private stuff I have had to adjust my playing style about two times every expansion.
    If I wanted to do the minimal then the game offered me lots of 'simple' stuff to do.
    And if I wanted to really dive into the story then the game allowed me to do that.

    Did you know that almost every non-combat pet has had flavor-text added?
    And have you read every lore scroll that Pandaria has, or did you just click it for the achievement like most people did?
    There are also a lot of grey items added with flavor-text and even some talents have text added.
    All of them is, imo, more effort at exploration than adding one small line of text to a few weapons.

    I believe that there is enough exploration to be found for players who are actually trying to find this exploration.

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    WoW is far less grindy now than it ever was in vanilla.
    That is so wrong it's not even funny what you said, been playing since May 2005 and MoP is just a grind, it's nothing but dailies and rep grinds ever since Sept when MoP was released. Back in vanilla WoW I didn't have to grind a single damn rep, worry about vp/jp or stare at the same daily quest over and over. The only part about vannila WoW that was hard was getting gear.

  3. #563
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexme View Post
    That is so wrong it's not even funny what you said, been playing since May 2005 and MoP is just a grind, it's nothing but dailies and rep grinds ever since Sept when MoP was released. Back in vanilla WoW I didn't have to grind a single damn rep, worry about vp/jp or stare at the same daily quest over and over. The only part about vannila WoW that was hard was getting gear.
    I agree with Hexme 100000000%
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  4. #564
    Stood in the Fire Satanous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rional View Post
    you know i was expecting something different other then a epic daily grind from the new thunder isle...

    i just dont think blizzard really get its... daily grind makes the game so boring... i mean 5 valor points a quest isnt really doing it for me..

    maybe 15-20 valor per quest.. but not 5..

    anyone else think so? and a lack of a lfr.. i mean if it isnt ready now.. no chance lfr is gonna be ready by next week either
    Sorry but if you are gonna QQ at least know wtf you are talking about moron.

  5. #565
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexme View Post
    That is so wrong it's not even funny what you said, been playing since May 2005 and MoP is just a grind, it's nothing but dailies and rep grinds ever since Sept when MoP was released. Back in vanilla WoW I didn't have to grind a single damn rep, worry about vp/jp or stare at the same daily quest over and over. The only part about vannila WoW that was hard was getting gear.
    If you played in vanilla and don't remember doing a lot of grinding, your memory must be pretty bad.

    Here's what I remember:

    Grinding for fire resist gear.
    Grinding for fire resist elixirs.
    Grinding for fire resist librams.
    Grinding for nature resist gear.
    Grinding for nature resist elixirs.
    Grinding for frost re....well, you get the idea.
    Grinding for herbs for mana/healing pots.
    Grinding for tubers.
    Grinding for blasted lands buff foods.
    Grinding for fish for buff food.
    Grinding for chops for our MT.

    And of course who could forget the AQ opening event. Which was a server-wide grind!

    And ZG introduced the first currency grind in the game! Zandalari coins.

    Naxx opening event was also a grind for currency.

    As a raider, I probably spent 5-10 hours a week just grinding during off-raid times.



    But not everyone raided. It was cool, non-raiders had their own grinds to keep them busy.

    Grinding for gold!! Once upon a time, gold actually mattered. You didn't buy your epic mount the minute you turned 60 because it was so damn expensive. To make money there were certain popular methods of grinding gold. You could do pure grinding in Tyr's Hand. Compete with the gold farmers to kill and loot the mobs there. You could grind all those mats that raiders needed and sell it to them. You could grind certain dungeons for items to sell like Righteous Orbs. The only people who didn't need to grind for gold were those who spent a lot of time playing the AH.

    And getting your tier 0 set, what a grind that was. Nothing like going into UD Strat in a 10 person raid to kill a boss that drops 1 item off their loot table. And then when it does drop, you probably had people roll against you. How many dungeons did you have to grind to complete your tier 0? You were pretty damn lucky if you could even find 1 run a night going to the specific dungeon you needed.


    But at least you didn't need to grind for rep to get crafting recipes. Oh wait, actually certain professions did. You needed Timbermaw rep for certain recipes. And Thorium Brotherhood pretty much just existed to give blacksmiths something to grind. I don't think Leatherworkers had an actual rep, they just needed to grind mobs to get certain rare mats to drop. I don't remember what tailors had to grind, but I'm sure they had something to keep them busy.


    Any of this ring a bell, Hexme?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 07:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisxor View Post
    I agree with Hexme 100000000%
    So you're another person who played during vanilla and conveniently forgot all the grinds?

  6. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexme View Post
    That is so wrong it's not even funny what you said, been playing since May 2005 and MoP is just a grind, it's nothing but dailies and rep grinds ever since Sept when MoP was released. Back in vanilla WoW I didn't have to grind a single damn rep, worry about vp/jp or stare at the same daily quest over and over. The only part about vannila WoW that was hard was getting gear.
    So you are saying that Vanilla / Classic WoW wasn't a grind.. Mmm I wonder what version of the game you were playing because I remember classic was nothing but a grind. Grind for gold to get the 600 gold for the epic ground mount and getting gold back then was not as easy as it is now. Grind rep for certain professions so you could get the patterns as SamR said having to grind rep to get access to the Timbermaw Hold quartermasters goodies for tailors and enchanters I think.

    There was lots of grinding back then to get access to certain aspects of the game, so to say there was no grinding is absolute BS.
    Last edited by grexly75; 2013-03-09 at 04:14 AM.

  7. #567
    Stood in the Fire Blazefury5's Avatar
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    Personally I think this was one of the better patches. They mixed a style of (imo) the best raid and (imo) the best daily hub. The dailies have an isle of Quel'danas feeling and the raid as previously described has a certain Ulduar feel to it. I also prefer going to one area for dailies rather than flying around the world for multiple hubs...

  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by sisk View Post
    -You can get rep from dailies, doing the first hc and scenario of the day, and planting stuff on the tillers farm.

    -You can earn valor from dailies, hc's, scenarios, raids, raidfinder.

    You have soo many options as to acquire your rep and valor now, but you want the only way they can't give you and that's by random drops. People would be screaming that they felt obligated to farm random level-appropriate mobs until they hit exalted to stay competitive.
    True like 2 fucks

  9. #569
    Quote Originally Posted by grexly75 View Post
    So you are saying that Vanilla / Classic WoW wasn't a grind.. Mmm I wonder what version of the game you were playing because I remember classic was nothing but a grind. Grind for gold to get the 600 gold for the epic ground mount and getting gold back then was not as easy as it is now. Grind rep for certain professions so you could get the patterns as SamR said having to grind rep to get access to the Timbermaw Hold quartermasters goodies for tailors and enchanters I think.

    There was lots of grinding back then to get access to certain aspects of the game, so to say there was no grinding is absolute BS.
    Everything you just listed is still in the game today, minus daily grinding, rep for valor gear and actually buying more than just epic ground training.

  10. #570
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    If you played in vanilla and don't remember doing a lot of grinding, your memory must be pretty bad.

    Here's what I remember:

    Grinding for fire resist gear.
    Grinding for fire resist elixirs.
    Grinding for fire resist librams.
    Grinding for nature resist gear.
    Grinding for nature resist elixirs.
    Grinding for frost re....well, you get the idea.
    Grinding for herbs for mana/healing pots.
    Grinding for tubers.
    Grinding for blasted lands buff foods.
    Grinding for fish for buff food.
    Grinding for chops for our MT.

    And of course who could forget the AQ opening event. Which was a server-wide grind!

    And ZG introduced the first currency grind in the game! Zandalari coins.

    Naxx opening event was also a grind for currency.

    As a raider, I probably spent 5-10 hours a week just grinding during off-raid times.



    But not everyone raided. It was cool, non-raiders had their own grinds to keep them busy.

    Grinding for gold!! Once upon a time, gold actually mattered. You didn't buy your epic mount the minute you turned 60 because it was so damn expensive. To make money there were certain popular methods of grinding gold. You could do pure grinding in Tyr's Hand. Compete with the gold farmers to kill and loot the mobs there. You could grind all those mats that raiders needed and sell it to them. You could grind certain dungeons for items to sell like Righteous Orbs. The only people who didn't need to grind for gold were those who spent a lot of time playing the AH.

    And getting your tier 0 set, what a grind that was. Nothing like going into UD Strat in a 10 person raid to kill a boss that drops 1 item off their loot table. And then when it does drop, you probably had people roll against you. How many dungeons did you have to grind to complete your tier 0? You were pretty damn lucky if you could even find 1 run a night going to the specific dungeon you needed.


    But at least you didn't need to grind for rep to get crafting recipes. Oh wait, actually certain professions did. You needed Timbermaw rep for certain recipes. And Thorium Brotherhood pretty much just existed to give blacksmiths something to grind. I don't think Leatherworkers had an actual rep, they just needed to grind mobs to get certain rare mats to drop. I don't remember what tailors had to grind, but I'm sure they had something to keep them busy.


    Any of this ring a bell, Hexme?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 07:16 PM ----------



    So you're another person who played during vanilla and conveniently forgot all the grinds?
    I do not recall those grinds being gated and the majority of those so-called grinds you posted were easily covered with gold and had pretty easily in the AH, except resist gear, even though you could get some there as well. It also did not feel so grindy but really the ones that did, were earned, you were not held back and when you finished it actually felt like you accomplished something. That resist gear you say is grinding, but all gear is in a way I guess so you really cannot use that as a legitimate example, it is a weak one.

    Also, the resist gear was fun to get, you got to do some great dungeons to get it. Was fun as hell doing it. You spent 5 hours a week grinding? So 45 mins a night? I raided at a pretty decent level back then and I just don't remember it being so bad. yes there was a grind, I agree, but the things that went along with it were fun. I also enjoyed how the crafting went as well, especially compared to now.

    I would much rather grind back then compared to dailies now. I wasnt held back, I went out my own pace, it was a lot more fun, the areas/players/pvp initiated/community also assisted in the experience. Again, farming resist gear was an awesome carrot on a stick and you were excited when it dropped.

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    I don't particularly view that as a worthy goal to be honest. I don't even think it really worked in the spirit of what they were after. Getting people out in to the world is potentially a good idea but getting people to go out into the world for the sake of going into the world is kinda crappy. LIke people going into the world are just treating the daily quests as sort of utilitarian tasks to be completed. They by and large aren't stopping to look around and smell the roses, or fuck with allies, or get mats, or whatever else. Dailies don't encourage or foster the spirit of what they want. The feeling of being in a big expansive world to explore. The root of the complaint about sitting in org to que wasn't so much the sitting in org part it's the idea that the world got very small by doing that and their wasn't much outside to look at or appreciate. dailies don't correct this. If anything dailies just limit the world to the daily questing zones. Their nature is just to get it over with to keep people in the world. By and large when I did do the dailies I was treating them as something just to be done with and gotten over. If I saw an alliance guy I would just ignore him. If he camped me I would try and escape or wait till he left. If I saw a resource I would ignore it because I didn't need the mining nodes anymore or herb nodes. If I saw a lore object I sometimes I would lcick it mostly I would skip it though. I don't really know how else to explain it other than dailies don't encourage or foster what Blizzard was after. I mean if all Blizzard wanted was to get you out into the world then they could have easily just programmed a limit to how much time you could spend in the capital city, or get rid of capital cities altogether. They were trying to recaptue some vanilla esque feeling about azeroth which just isn't gonna happen.

    I honestly don't see what the problem with instanced content was. Someone tweeted GC about just giving people instanced content if that's what they wanted. He responded back that just instanced content doesn't give the game "legs" as an mmo. I tweeted back to him that the label MMO was kinda meaningless and it didn't really matter what you called the game. He responded that the label wasn't the issue, it was the feeling of an MMO and that's what they were trying to recapture. IMO daily content didn't achieve that goal one bit and the price was a style of play that many of us felt rewarded by and had a blast doing.

    People being out in the world doing stuff, isn't a goal worth achieving in my opinion because they aren't STAYING out in the world. Their still hanging out in org or in two moons. Only now they get prodded for spurts out activity out in the world, NOT for long term play in the world.

    I'm glad to see you acknowledge the way to compelling dailies part and how shitty everything else was.
    This is a brilliant post. /salute

    Its like Blizzard finally realized they had essentially killed any incentive to enter the world because of a long string of 'quality of life' changes starting in wotlk. And knowing that a real fix to the problem would require a major blowup and return to vanilla/BC philosohpies, they instead took the band aid approach of shoving players into 'the world' through daily quests.

    I agree with you 100%, players are in the world in a technical sense, but they are not experiencing it the way players used to or in a way that is actually fun.

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  12. #572
    The Lightbringer Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexme View Post
    The only part about vannila WoW that was hard was getting gear.
    The only part about vanilla WoW was getting gear.

    That's all Classic had to offer at endgame. Run the same five dungeons (BRD/BRS/DM/Strat/Scholo) for gear, or raid for gear, or PVP for gear.

    I mean, they did have a few endgame reputation grinds that didn't require running Strat or ZG or AQ, but they required you to farm mobs to get a few rep at a time or items to turn-in.

  13. #573
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    I, initially was disappointed a tad about the patch after doing my dailies for the first time.

    Then the day after I found out it's hillarious to world PvP during the dailies. And explored the rares a bit, did increased droprate LFR and marveled about the damage I was doing since I got a buff.

    Best patch yet

  14. #574
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxyqt View Post
    I, initially was disappointed a tad about the patch after doing my dailies for the first time.

    Then the day after I found out it's hillarious to world PvP during the dailies. And explored the rares a bit, did increased droprate LFR and marveled about the damage I was doing since I got a buff.

    Best patch yet
    My experience exactly. Plus the raid is just pure awesome. QQ about loot and TF gear and the eternal bs 10vs25 thing aside, it's a freaking huge raid that has dinosaurs, massive turtles, requires you to fight your way up a giant sewage duct to fight a bird, and to top it all off, the patch trailer rhymes! Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit, but the one thing I'm not anymore is bored.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Oh, PVP twinks. I thought this was about Anduin.
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    I am so triggered right now.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    If you played in vanilla and don't remember doing a lot of grinding, your memory must be pretty bad.

    Here's what I remember:

    Grinding for fire resist gear.
    ...
    Such an awesome post! Funny to see the defenders claim that Vanilla wasn't so much of a grind.
    Yeah, right.

    You left out a few more from off the top of my head:
    Grind Onyxia over and over to get 40 Onyxia Scale Cloaks before you could even attempt Nefarian. New toon? Back goes the guild...
    Grind Argent Dawn just to get attuned to Naxxramas. Had to get tons of mats or gold, or exalted rep (when it was HARD) just to enter the damned place.
    Remember all the shitty runs out to Azshara to refill the damn Aqual Quintessence for each boss rune in Molten Core? Holy crap...

    Sometimes I really doubt these posters were really playing in Vanilla.

    Here's the thing, though. Revelatory, I know, but...
    SOME PEOPLE ENJOY A GRIND.
    Just like some people enjoy crossword puzzles, or other low stress, low difficulty activities. There are even people playing today who both enjoy dailies AND high stress raiding. Crazy, I know.

    Grinding has been a part of this game in all forms, since day one.
    Some of you might not enjoy grinding. Some of us do, and it was one of the attractions in MMOs in the first place.
    Quit trying to remake the game we love in your image.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-09 at 06:50 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    And knowing that a real fix to the problem would require a major blowup and return to vanilla/BC philosohpies, they instead took the band aid approach of shoving players into 'the world' through daily quests.
    Vanilla / BC was much more grind-oriented and required more questing than Pandaria. Your comment doesn't even make sense.
    Help control the population. Have your blood elf spayed or neutered.

  16. #576
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    Yeah, I just really don't get the focus on dailies this expansion. And before you throw the "Well don't do them!" argument at me, I don't. I stopped doing them with any regularity quite some time ago. I just simply don't understand the continued heavy focus on dailies as content given the massive backlash that Blizzard has received against them. Granted that the WoW community (read: the internet) loves to bitch in general, but good Lord this is insane.

    Realistically, this expansion is going to be remembered for two, maaaaaaybe three things:

    1. Dailies
    2. Pandas
    3. The best raiding since TBC (purely my opinion, but widely shared by those I know in game)

  17. #577
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Well I expect not more dailies. When they even admit how forced dailies "felt" I would expect them to come up with some thing else. what do I expect? I don't expect to get the same content that I hated doing in the first patch anyway. I expect more of the things I enjoy like dungeons. I expect more things like the farmville they put in this game because that's somewhat new and innovative. I expect in patch 5.3 or 5.4 theyll have ripped off one of their competitiors ideas and itll be neat and interesting and it won't be more daily quests. I don't expect to have to tell them how to run their game but I do expect that they have more ideas than here you go heres some more dailies.

    Fuck dailes. their the worst. I'm so glad the gear tied to them is crap and not worth doing.

    As for the game that is innovative patch after patch well WoW does have innovations in patches all the time. the next patch will have some new hidden features. Cataclysm had lfr and trasnmog and innovative crap like that. It just feels like they ran out in mists.
    Yea but in the end WoW (and most MMO's) is a game based around doing stuff that returns on a daily base, it's been like that for years now. In fact, wow was utterly boring without dailies... coming back from that utterly annoying vanilla nostagic loads of people have... Imagine nowadays wow... the same, but without LFR and without Dailies. Right, now, what would you start doing each and every day when you log on?

    Just saying, do some thinking and be less egocentric before you people make rants like this and the op's.
    For 5 or 6 years this game is nothing more then a daily grind, some dungeons and some raiding as much as Black Ops I II and further episodes is about shooting other stuff with a gun.
    I dont expect to be able to equip a rod and start fishing in mudpools in Blackops aswell because... well hey.. thats not what that game is about.

    If after atleast 5 years of dailies you still havent figured out what WoW is about I honestly think you're missing some chunks of brain.
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    I don't celebrate National Native Americans Welcomed Us With Open Arms and Helped Us Survive the First Winter That We Were Woefully Unprepared For and We Repaid Them By Taking Their Lands, Raping Their Women and Murdering Them Day....
    Several Indian tribes see this holiday as the beginning of a process by which they tragically lost their land, and their population was decimated. Every year Indians come together in Plymouth to commemorate their "national day of mourning."

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by Sersel View Post
    Yea but in the end WoW (and most MMO's) is a game based around doing stuff that returns on a daily base, it's been like that for years now. In fact, wow was utterly boring without dailies... coming back from that utterly annoying vanilla nostagic loads of people have... Imagine nowadays wow... the same, but without LFR and without Dailies. Right, now, what would you start doing each and every day when you log on?

    Just saying, do some thinking and be less egocentric before you people make rants like this and the op's.
    For 5 or 6 years this game is nothing more then a daily grind, some dungeons and some raiding as much as Black Ops I II and further episodes is about shooting other stuff with a gun.
    I dont expect to be able to equip a rod and start fishing in mudpools in Blackops aswell because... well hey.. thats not what that game is about.

    If after atleast 5 years of dailies you still havent figured out what WoW is about I honestly think you're missing some chunks of brain.
    The same thing I've been doing since the end of TBC era. Running dungeons for gear. That isn't something that comes back every day for the record, it has butt loads of flexibility over daily quests.

  19. #579
    Epic! Duncanîdaho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    I agree with you 100%, players are in the world in a technical sense, but they are not experiencing it the way players used to or in a way that is actually fun.
    Yesterday I had 2 hours to kill so I figured I'd log on and play around on the Isle a bit. I did my first quest hub pretty slowly, on my way to the second I saw a player in general asking for some help against a group of alliance running around. So I joined up with them and fought some alliance for 20-30 min. When that was done I finished off my second hub. When I was in the crag doing my third set, I saw a dk randomly pull that huge devilsaur elite and start kiting it. So I figured why not and started helping him, then not even 3 min later another 2 joined us. WE ended up pulling to many small mobs while kiting and all died and had a good laugh. We then went back for try 2 and proceeded to kite him around and kill him after 10 min and others helping out once they saw us. The elite didn't even drop anything, he's just meant to kill people in the area, so there is actually zero point to killing him. I ended up being out of time after that and didn't even fully complete the set of dailies before I had to log.

    My point of this whole story is don't assume because you can't find and make your own enjoyment(like in vanilla wow) in the game that none of us can't. It's an MMO, you have to put some sort of effort into the game if you want something random and spontaneous to happen like what happened in vanilla frequently. Stuff snowballs, sometimes it only takes one player to start killing a random elite, or attacking an alliance to get the ball rolling and having a huge war. Most players these days though can't stop and take a second to try and create their own fun in the environment and just follow the daily roller coaster tracks instead. Like McCoy says he does in his post you quoted.

    They are simply meant to move you through the area while you scope other fun things to do, or people to attack, or elites to kill for runes for even more elites to kill. Even a key for a really fun solo scenario which you can always improve on. The patch has only been out for a few days and I've prob blown a good 8-10 hours on the island doing random stuff not even related to dailies. Some of us are indeed out in the world experiencing it and having/making our fun. For me right now its like I'm back on TBC isle and its great.
    Last edited by Duncanîdaho; 2013-03-09 at 08:02 AM.
    The generalist looks outward; he looks for living principles, knowing full well that such principles change, that they develop. It is to the characteristics of change itself that the mentat-generalist must look. There can be no permanent catalogue of such change, no handbook or manual. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself, "Now what is this thing doing?" -Children of Dune

  20. #580
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    This is a brilliant post. /salute

    Its like Blizzard finally realized they had essentially killed any incentive to enter the world because of a long string of 'quality of life' changes starting in wotlk. And knowing that a real fix to the problem would require a major blowup and return to vanilla/BC philosohpies, they instead took the band aid approach of shoving players into 'the world' through daily quests.

    I agree with you 100%, players are in the world in a technical sense, but they are not experiencing it the way players used to or in a way that is actually fun.
    I'm not convinced that their was a terrible amount of incentive to be in the world in vanilla either. I mean like you had to to get to the dungeons and to meet your friends and explore and things like that but in so far as incentive for reward it was all mostly still through raids. I mean unless your grinding timbermaw or doing world pvp, you were getting gear through raids.

    The key difference was that while you were in the world in vanilla (which did happen more often mostly because if you wanted to dungeon you were getting out there) the experience just felt more world like. It felt more alive and organic. It felt more immersive, like you were in a world. Currently the game feels awful tiny and dailies don't solve that. They just force you into one corner of the box. To be honest I'm not sure they can solve it or if they should even bother. The world is tiny for alot of GOOD reasons. They handled it well in the past. By ignoring it as a problem. Attempting to correct what is in reality an issue caused by many of the good changes they released and an issue caused by the wide availability of information on the internet is beyond their ability. In other words, like alot of things it was a non problem that didn't need fixing. It needed further ignoring.


    Like Osmeric said, they didn't capture the essence of what it was that made the world more immersive. I'm not convinced it can be captured again or that it should even attempted. What's needed from the developers isn't an attempt to go back and recapture the past, the developers need to forge ahead and make new.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-09 at 08:07 AM.

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