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  1. #101
    Brewmaster AutomaticBadger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post
    There's a huge gap in LFD and normal mode ilevel now, way more than in Dragon Soul.

    If you could make use of ToT LFD pieces in normal mode raiding you have a very strange gearing situation.
    Dude I remember farming for the 2 and 4 set as a tank because it beat my t12 despite the lack of gear
    He slipped out of his royal garments, left eternity to enter time, divinity to wrap himself in humanity.
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    Because the very hands that held the stars were now sentenced to wear my scars.

  2. #102
    Ultimately the gate is a symptom of a larger problem. Like I said I would be more likely to sub for another month if I had got a bunch of reward out of the game in the month that I was playing it. Now even without the 6 week gate that wasn't a likely scenario given how slow things are in this fucking game already. Their obsession with RNG as a tool for engaging game play is stupid. It isn't engaging. It's lame getting the shaft week after week. Now take that and add another 6 week delay, further retarding what is an already slow and arduous grind and it's a recipe for unsub.

    Honestly I could live with the gate if I knew in the 6 weeks coming my time would be rewarded well enough and the wait would be rewarded. That isn't the case really and the gate just makes a slow process take even longer.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-07 at 08:57 PM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by AutomaticBadger View Post
    Dude I remember farming for the 2 and 4 set as a tank because it beat my t12 despite the lack of gear
    I don't believe there's any tokens dropping in the first wings of LFR. Just like there was no tier in MSV.

    Running LFR to complete a set bonus is a perfectly reasonable use of LFR and is one that Blizzard intends. Running LFR to gear up in general is not intended though.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by BrerBear View Post
    I'm saying that letting people clear the raid on easy mode in the first few weeks removes the motivation for them to do it on a harder mode for the next few months. Why is this difficult to understand? It's the same complaint people have made against heroic modes for years now, only for the last year it's drifted down to LFR vs. Normal.
    I really am not trying to argue with you or belittle your guild if it runs this way. My guild struggles to find people wanting to raid as well, so it's not that I am unsympathetic to your plight. I just can't figure out how moving LFR opening would change people playing normals or not. The people in my guild are raiding because we enjoy raiding and want a challenge, not to see the end the fastest way possible. We have other members who raid LFR and that's it and they are fine with that. We do not allow members who can't commit to a raiding schedule to join the normal/heroic raids unless it's an emergency, and typically they don't even have the desire if we need a body. We do run LFR to get gear/valor to help, but that is the extent of it.

    If LFR is designed to be the stepping stone between heroics and raids, which I believed was the idea, then there is no reason to gate it in this manner. Those who don't need LFR gear to finish the instance most likely don't care at all about someone running LFR on day one.
    to: preposition; used as a function word to indicate position, connection, extent, relation ~ too: adverb; also, very, excessively, so

  5. #105
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    I think it's kind of hilarious the sort of conventions MMOs can get away with, blatantly, right infront of people's faces, and barely anyone cares.

    Could you imagine if, for example, let's say Bioshock Infinite. Let's say that came out, and for the first week of launch, you could not play it on easy.

    THEN, let's go one step further, for everyone not playing above a certain difficulty threshold, certain sections of the game would be withheld from them for 1-2 weeks at a time.

    If you paid money for this, you'd be pretty damned pissed off. That's a reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally poor way to extend the "value" of something, and it's pretty clear that the mindset of Blizzard is a combination of "Let's artificially make this last longer for people playing on a low difficulty!" and "Let's make the hardcore minority like us more!" "The casuals won't even know what we're doing, and pay us anyways!"

    I mean, I know I sound bitter toward Blizzard, and such, but come the hell on. How in the world could anyone not be bothered by that? "Well, I play on normal, so... well, I guess that other group of people don't matter, because they're not me and they don't deserve to do things!"

    It's like a certain set of rules separately exist for MMOs, and they toss all freaking logic out the window. The worst of it is, is it's basically treated like pity content for the "unwashed masses", or some such. By both Blizzard AND the hardcore minority.

    I'm enjoying the patch very, very, very much so, but this kind of behavior pretty much isn't defensible in any way, shape, or form with any sort of sound logic, and almost all of you know you'd be pissed to hell and back if it happened in anything that was NOT an MMO.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    I think it's kind of hilarious the sort of conventions MMOs can get away with, blatantly, right infront of people's faces, and barely anyone cares.

    Could you imagine if, for example, let's say Bioshock Infinite. Let's say that came out, and for the first week of launch, you could not play it on easy.

    THEN, let's go one step further, for everyone not playing above a certain difficulty threshold, certain sections of the game would be withheld from them for 1-2 weeks at a time.

    If you paid money for this, you'd be pretty damned pissed off. That's a reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally poor way to extend the "value" of something, and it's pretty clear that the mindset of Blizzard is a combination of "Let's artificially make this last longer for people playing on a low difficulty!" and "Let's make the hardcore minority like us more!" "The casuals won't even know what we're doing, and pay us anyways!"

    I mean, I know I sound bitter toward Blizzard, and such, but come the hell on. How in the world could anyone not be bothered by that? "Well, I play on normal, so... well, I guess that other group of people don't matter, because they're not me and they don't deserve to do things!"

    It's like a certain set of rules separately exist for MMOs, and they toss all freaking logic out the window. The worst of it is, is it's basically treated like pity content for the "unwashed masses", or some such. By both Blizzard AND the hardcore minority.

    I'm enjoying the patch very, very, very much so, but this kind of behavior pretty much isn't defensible in any way, shape, or form with any sort of sound logic, and almost all of you know you'd be pissed to hell and back if it happened in anything that was NOT an MMO.

    So f'n this.

    Well said. It has very little to do with hardcores vs casuals or even the fact that things are gated. It's the way they are doing it and how they are presenting it to the customer. They basically said that the 90-95% of their playerbase that doesn't do normals or heroic raids are second rate customers.

    Raids were artificially gated behind skill caps for years and no one said word. Why? Because it was surmountable if you wanted it bad enough. While I agree LFR needs to be gated in some fashion, the blatant abuse of manual gating to artificially extend the content is absurd.

    Blizzard can't say "Hey we want to allow everyone to play and experience content," create a whole new MMO playstyle to broaden their subscriber base, and then turn around and say "Hey, screw you guys, wait it out for our valued customers to get done. Then we'll throw you some stuff every few weeks."

    Any other business in any other market pulling something like that would be lynched immediately.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post

    Any other business in any other market pulling something like that would be lynched immediately.
    They do get away with quite a bit. Some of it is understandable, given the size of the player base they have to cater to and the million or so thing they have to consider when making a decision. The player base of the game is indeed very diverse so it's hard to accommodate everybody. I agree they've been to concerned with placating a minority of players this expansion though. Not good.

  8. #108
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    They do get away with quite a bit. Some of it is understandable, given the size of the player base they have to cater to and the million or so thing they have to consider when making a decision. The player base of the game is indeed very diverse so it's hard to accommodate everybody. I agree they've been to concerned with placating a minority of players this expansion though. Not good.
    I'd say they've spent the last 8 years mindfully placating a minority playerbase because the majority spent years being willfully ignorant of parts of the game, and only in Cataclysm did that really start to show the ill effects. (I mean, look at the dip in quality of raids, SOMEONE probably had to start justifying content to some CEOs or something, and frankly, as it was, years 1-7 of raid content make ZERO financial sense for something with that many people playing it. People seemingly flat out, in the entire history of WoW, don't want to raid. AND that's where most of the money for content has went. Then we had the whole botched 1-60 revamp, meant to be as some sort of way to attract new people, which absolutely failed. It's almost like Blizzard is like "FINE, okay, we'll do it.... OUR way... Grrr..., in terms of giving people access to stuff. It doesn't really make any sense.)

  9. #109
    The Lightbringer Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    So f'n this.

    Well said. It has very little to do with hardcores vs casuals or even the fact that things are gated. It's the way they are doing it and how they are presenting it to the customer. They basically said that the 90-95% of their playerbase that doesn't do normals or heroic raids are second rate customers.

    Raids were artificially gated behind skill caps for years and no one said word. Why? Because it was surmountable if you wanted it bad enough. While I agree LFR needs to be gated in some fashion, the blatant abuse of manual gating to artificially extend the content is absurd.

    Blizzard can't say "Hey we want to allow everyone to play and experience content," create a whole new MMO playstyle to broaden their subscriber base, and then turn around and say "Hey, screw you guys, wait it out for our valued customers to get done. Then we'll throw you some stuff every few weeks."

    Any other business in any other market pulling something like that would be lynched immediately.
    Less than 5% do normal/heroics. Can you come up with numbers on what percent do LFR? I would bet it's less than 30% which is still a huge minority.

    Raids were gated behind skill caps and then nerfed when the next patch came out so the less skilled players could experience it. Patches took 6 months in most cases so how is 6 months more than 6 weeks when waiting to experience content.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Tharkkun View Post
    Less than 5% do normal/heroics. Can you come up with numbers on what percent do LFR? I would bet it's less than 30% which is still a huge minority.

    Raids were gated behind skill caps and then nerfed when the next patch came out so the less skilled players could experience it. Patches took 6 months in most cases so how is 6 months more than 6 weeks when waiting to experience content.
    I'd hazard to guess it's much more than 30%, but, even if it is 30% vs 5% that's still a huge portion of the raiding community that you're giving the middle finger.


    As for 6 weeks being longer than 6 months, you're comparing the game before raid finder to the game with raid finder, and, with the significant impact its had, its changed the game so much that you really can't compare the two anymore (same goes with LFD). It's like comparing Vanilla WoW to MoP - they're simply two completely different games.
    Last edited by spectrefax; 2013-03-07 at 10:26 PM.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    I think it's kind of hilarious the sort of conventions MMOs can get away with, blatantly, right infront of people's faces, and barely anyone cares.

    Could you imagine if, for example, let's say Bioshock Infinite. Let's say that came out, and for the first week of launch, you could not play it on easy.

    THEN, let's go one step further, for everyone not playing above a certain difficulty threshold, certain sections of the game would be withheld from them for 1-2 weeks at a time.

    If you paid money for this, you'd be pretty damned pissed off. That's a reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally poor way to extend the "value" of something, and it's pretty clear that the mindset of Blizzard is a combination of "Let's artificially make this last longer for people playing on a low difficulty!" and "Let's make the hardcore minority like us more!" "The casuals won't even know what we're doing, and pay us anyways!"

    I mean, I know I sound bitter toward Blizzard, and such, but come the hell on. How in the world could anyone not be bothered by that? "Well, I play on normal, so... well, I guess that other group of people don't matter, because they're not me and they don't deserve to do things!"

    It's like a certain set of rules separately exist for MMOs, and they toss all freaking logic out the window. The worst of it is, is it's basically treated like pity content for the "unwashed masses", or some such. By both Blizzard AND the hardcore minority.

    I'm enjoying the patch very, very, very much so, but this kind of behavior pretty much isn't defensible in any way, shape, or form with any sort of sound logic, and almost all of you know you'd be pissed to hell and back if it happened in anything that was NOT an MMO.
    There are games that don't even come with an easy mode.

    And you're comparing non-sub games to WoW.

    With all the crap happening in the non-MMO gaming world these days(and today specifically), I'm not sure making fun of MMOs for lack of logic gets you very far.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    I think it's kind of hilarious the sort of conventions MMOs can get away with, blatantly, right infront of people's faces, and barely anyone cares.

    Could you imagine if, for example, let's say Bioshock Infinite. Let's say that came out, and for the first week of launch, you could not play it on easy.

    THEN, let's go one step further, for everyone not playing above a certain difficulty threshold, certain sections of the game would be withheld from them for 1-2 weeks at a time.

    If you paid money for this, you'd be pretty damned pissed off. That's a reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally poor way to extend the "value" of something, and it's pretty clear that the mindset of Blizzard is a combination of "Let's artificially make this last longer for people playing on a low difficulty!" and "Let's make the hardcore minority like us more!" "The casuals won't even know what we're doing, and pay us anyways!"

    I mean, I know I sound bitter toward Blizzard, and such, but come the hell on. How in the world could anyone not be bothered by that? "Well, I play on normal, so... well, I guess that other group of people don't matter, because they're not me and they don't deserve to do things!"

    It's like a certain set of rules separately exist for MMOs, and they toss all freaking logic out the window. The worst of it is, is it's basically treated like pity content for the "unwashed masses", or some such. By both Blizzard AND the hardcore minority.

    I'm enjoying the patch very, very, very much so, but this kind of behavior pretty much isn't defensible in any way, shape, or form with any sort of sound logic, and almost all of you know you'd be pissed to hell and back if it happened in anything that was NOT an MMO.
    Yeah. I have the same feeling, that there are some higher priopity customers. Ok, it's Blizzard's choice to allow them see content first. But why should I pay for cutted down content then? 90% of players paying, 10% - playing? No, it won't work that way. Blizzard've chosen to gate my content - then I choose not to pay for their game. No, I'm not going to resub not only because I have no access to LFR - gating of LFR was just a last drop, that turned scales of my loyalty to unsubbing side.
    Sorry for my bad english.
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  13. #113
    Epic! Zaxio's Avatar
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    Well its aabit strange
    If was 2 wings first 2 weeks then release of the next 2 in 3th is ok.I dint understand them now till LFR goes fully unlocked many of the guilds will practic deep in Heroic modes
    But from the other side mine alts wont get more geared than mine main like happens in DS
    Last edited by Zaxio; 2013-03-08 at 04:11 PM.

  14. #114
    As a LFR only raider, I could care less. I suggest all of you who whine about gating find something more meaningful to do while waiting for the next part to unlock. I know, it's silly to think that some of you actually have better things to do.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by AVPaul View Post
    Yeah. I have the same feeling, that there are some higher priopity customers. Ok, it's Blizzard's choice to allow them see content first. But why should I pay for cutted down content then? 90% of players paying, 10% - playing? No, it won't work that way. Blizzard've chosen to gate my content - then I choose not to pay for their game. No, I'm not going to resub not only because I have no access to LFR - gating of LFR was just a last drop, that turned scales of my loyalty to unsubbing side.
    This can only be an opinion of someone who started wow during dragon soul.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Reyzzz View Post
    This can only be an opinion of someone who started wow during dragon soul.
    Started Vanilla. Just after the gates of AQ opened. It's an opinion I share.

  17. #117
    The Lightbringer Tharkkun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spectrefax View Post
    I'd hazard to guess it's much more than 30%, but, even if it is 30% vs 5% that's still a huge portion of the raiding community that you're giving the middle finger.


    As for 6 weeks being longer than 6 months, you're comparing the game before raid finder to the game with raid finder, and, with the significant impact its had, its changed the game so much that you really can't compare the two anymore (same goes with LFD). It's like comparing Vanilla WoW to MoP - they're simply two completely different games.
    You were gated 6 weeks from when MOP was released. 5 weeks from when the first raid instance was available. All the dungeons were complete but is it really that different than releasing 6 bosses, 6 bosses and 4 bosses over time versus releasing wing 1, wing 2, wing 3 and wing 4? There difference is one week.


    September 25: MoP Released.
    October 2: Mogu'shan Vaults (normal) opens
    October 7: Mogu'shan Vaults (LFR) and Heroic (6 Bosses)
    October 30: Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring (normal) open. Terrace gated to those who cleared Heart.
    November 6: Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring (LFR) open. (6 Bosses for HOF) (4 Bosses for TOES)

    March 5 – Normal Throne of Thunder
    March 12 – Heroic Throne of Thunder and LFR Wing 1 "Last Stand of the Zandalari"
    March 19 – LFR Wing 2 "Forgotten Depths"
    April 2 – LFR Wing 3 "Halls of Flesh-Shaping"
    April 16 – LFR Wing 4 "Pinnacle of Storms"

  18. #118
    Brewmaster dryankem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    It really isn't going to make a single fucking difference. Honestly. It won't lure players back to doing normals and furthermore the normal players won't get their fill of gear by the time 6 weeks is up (hell I doubt most of them will have cleared the last boss) and theyl be doing lfr to get a boost anyway. IT's just a naked attempt to get you to sub for longer. It' so shitty.
    What's the difference between ripping through LFR day 1 and unsubbing vs unsubbing until all the wings are open and then rip through them.

    The gating was a bone for raiders so they could see it first, a little dumb but large communities need a long time to adjust to change.

    This thread seems like a drastic overreaction which is what the vocal WOW community lives for and the more that I think about it, the more I appreciate the overreaction because without people screaming that the world is ending this and possibly every other game forum would be dead.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by dryankem View Post
    What's the difference between ripping through LFR day 1 and unsubbing vs unsubbing until all the wings are open and then rip through them.

    The gating was a bone for raiders so they could see it first, a little dumb but large communities need a long time to adjust to change.

    This thread seems like a drastic overreaction which is what the vocal WOW community lives for and the more that I think about it, the more I appreciate the overreaction because without people screaming that the world is ending this and possibly every other game forum would be dead.
    Because nobody rips through lfr on day one and unsubs. Christ even on normals are you done with the normal raids the week you complete them? No you still farm them for gear. Especially in this xpac where every piece of gear is a pain in the asshole to get. Look even in my wildest WILDEST dreams it would take me more than 6 weeks to get everything I wanted. I would be more likely to sub for another month if I got to see a raid on day one, with some reward out of it and feel in a better spot because of it.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-08 at 06:16 PM.

  20. #120
    Brewmaster dryankem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Because nobody rips through lfr on day one and unsubs. Christ even on normals are you done with the normal raids the week you complete them? No you still farm them for gear. Especially in this xpac where every piece of gear is a pain in the asshole to get. Look even in my wildest WILDEST dreams it would take me more than 6 weeks to get everything I wanted. I would be more likely to sub for another month if I got to see a raid on day one, with some reward out of it and feel in a better spot because of it.
    You'd still have months and months to run it over and over again, so it's not like it won't have time for it to get old and you'd likely get all the gear you wanted before the next raid.

    Having to have everything you want is what keeps paying the bills for blizzard because that's what keeps the hamster wheel turning. It's not the gating that blizzard is using to keep people playing, it's that they keep changing the carrot at the end of the stick.
    Last edited by dryankem; 2013-03-08 at 06:32 PM.

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