1. #281
    For a destruction newbie how does shadowburn fit into the single target rotation? Or is it not used?

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Dumble View Post
    Question regarding multi-target fights like Council - How many targets do you keep Immolate up on? All 4 or just the one that you're nuking down, whilst keeping RoF rolling on the other ones if they're close enough?
    As many as possible. Immolate has about 133% the DPET of Conflag and Incinerate, and about 90% of the DPET of Chaos Bolt (not including the Ember generation though). On a fight like council you can just roll Immolate on 3-4 targets, RoF 100% on 2 or 3 targets, Conflag on CD, and mostly use Chaos Bolt as your filler, even if it means using 3 backdraft stacks.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Simplexity View Post
    As many as possible. Immolate has about 133% the DPET of Conflag and Incinerate, and about 90% of the DPET of Chaos Bolt (not including the Ember generation though). On a fight like council you can just roll Immolate on 3-4 targets, RoF 100% on 2 or 3 targets, Conflag on CD, and mostly use Chaos Bolt as your filler, even if it means using 3 backdraft stacks.
    Fair enough, did very well as Affliction on that fight (as it should be), but might as well practice Destro for it if it's gonna be better on all the other fights as well ^^

  4. #284
    Love this guide, it helped me out SO much. Thank you!!

  5. #285
    I have a question for those locks that do 200-250k + on Torto's/Horridon. My guild is going to begin working on these fights very soon and I need some help to really push my numbers. I can do destro single target very well but on fights like these I seem to get flustered on what I should be doing. I know the basics but I'm looking to push some sick numbers. With that said:

    Should I be using Havoc on CD or saving it 10 ish seconds to Havoc Shadowburns on dying adds to Horridon. If I run out of Embers to CB on Horridon should I even bother using Immolate on sub 70% hp targets? If there are 3-4 adds grouped on Horridon is it worth using FnB Immo on them to gain more embers for single target? If you can give me a basic run down on how you perform so well on these fights as well as provide a log for me to browse over it would be greatly appreciated.

  6. #286
    I managed around 220k DPS last time, I think.

    What I do is imolate every target, FnB + Immo if there are like 4-5+ targets. I use Havoc whenever it's ready on whatever is near, preferably a Dinomancer or the boss or something else more important. Keep RoF up 100% of the time and be sure not to delay Dark Soul or any other cooldowns as usual. If there are 5-6 targets up and close I use FnB + Incinerate and Conflagrate too.

    That's pretty much it! Ohh and ndver forget to Shadowburn your heart out!

    I however go with a Shivarra glued to the boss 100% of the time.

    EDIT: It's very very easy to max outyour embers all the time on this fight, so most of your casts will probably be Chaos Bolts, as you already said.
    But 5-6 targets and FnB + Incinerate might and probably will do more damage than 1 chaos bolt, atleast for me.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemie View Post
    I managed around 220k DPS last time, I think.

    What I do is imolate every target, FnB + Immo if there are like 4-5+ targets. I use Havoc whenever it's ready on whatever is near, preferably a Dinomancer or the boss or something else more important. Keep RoF up 100% of the time and be sure not to delay Dark Soul or any other cooldowns as usual. If there are 5-6 targets up and close I use FnB + Incinerate and Conflagrate too.

    That's pretty much it! Ohh and ndver forget to Shadowburn your heart out!

    I however go with a Shivarra glued to the boss 100% of the time.

    EDIT: It's very very easy to max outyour embers all the time on this fight, so most of your casts will probably be Chaos Bolts, as you already said.
    But 5-6 targets and FnB + Incinerate might and probably will do more damage than 1 chaos bolt, atleast for me.
    Thanks for the post. I always seem to be trying to so hard to do everything I forget to do anything. Do you have some logs I can scan over?

  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    I'm not sure it's that nobody wanted to address it, just that it's a difficult question that requires a lot of thinking and testing. (Of which I am in short supply of right now with finals next week, and starting an internship at the beginning of April.) I'm pretty much the only one that either does theorycrafting about destro, or at least the only person that does AND shares his results.

    I can't be of much use to anyone in terms of complicated theorycrafting until next week.


    However, my gut feeling is that if you get to the point you have sub 1sec Incinerates in any circumstance, you should reforge some of that haste to crit.
    with backdraft, this is going to be a very very low level of haste. with the valour trinket or heroism or the new meta gem, you are pretty much always going to be under 1s incinerates

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Viggers View Post
    with backdraft, this is going to be a very very low level of haste. with the valour trinket or heroism or the new meta gem, you are pretty much always going to be under 1s incinerates
    I suppose I should rephrase:

    My most recent research shows Haste + Crit > Mastery to be a general guideline for most gear levels for single target. This is because I found that haste vs crit didn't really matter, and both gave roughly the same DPS increase per stat gain.

    Once we start hitting the GCD limitations on Incinerates, then obviously the value of that next haste point will be diminished compared to the previous one, because you are no longer benefitting from a cast time reduction and are only benefiting on CBolt/Immolate casts. If you could, before hitting the GCD limit, gain 10 DPS by gaining 1 haste rating, and roughly 10 DPS by gaining 1 crit rating, then after you hit the cap, it makes logical sense for you to still gain roughly the same amount of DPS by gaining crit, while you may otherwise gain only 8 DPS by gaining 1 haste rating.

    The key consideration/question is at what point does the diminishing return on Haste due to GCD limitations while under temporary haste effects become significant enough to warrant a change in strategy.

    This is in itself an extremely complex question that I don't have an answer to right now. It's entirely possible that getting under 1 sec Incinerates while under Hero+Haste Proc is up is enough. It's also entirely possible that it doesn't matter at all until a Haste Proc by itself causes you to get sub-1-sec Incinerates.

    Basically, I don't know but my gut feeling is that it's a theoretical loss if you hit a GCD cap and continue to gain more haste over crit. THEN AGAIN, maybe chaos bolt's long cast time, or extra ticks on Immolate keeps the value high. Who know's? I certainly don't because I haven't had the time to actually investigate it.

  10. #290
    I don't suppose anyone has definitive answers to the following questions, or maybe the answers are so obvious that the question is redundant, or the answers are extremely situational, but some things I've been wondering about (purely considering single target):

    i) Regarding the haste proc from the shadow-pan assault rep trinket - I'm finding that it and my other trinket are frequently getting out of sync. According to affdots an immolate with relic up is similar in strength to an immolate with rep trinket up. I suspect that if I get the situation where my yulon buff fades just before my acceleration procs, I should recast immolate as soon as it's in the pandemic window, as even though the dps of either immolate might be close, haste buffed one gives me more ember generation?

    ii) Also when dealing with this trinket - during hero + acceleration my rain of fire only lasts about 4.6 seconds. I suspect at this point I should probably back off from trying to keeping rain of fire up quite so much and be trying to spam out more incinerates/cb? I'm not really sure honestly, the interaction between ember generation, mana cost, damage and the gcd cap seems quite complex. Similarly if I'm not going to cap conflag charges should I try to avoid conflag during this trinket proc + hero, as backdraft + trinket proc + hero gives me a 0.78s incinerate cast?

    iii) Does rain of fire ember generation scale with crit like most other abilities? Wondering if the priority changes at all during dark soul.

  11. #291
    New to destro so a big thanks to this guide and the help it's provided. Have a question or two that don't seem to be answered yet.

    1. Does the amount of Embers you've saved up effect the amount of damage you do with Chaos Bolts? I've not read ANYWHERE that it says it does so using Chaos Bolt with 1 ember as opposed to 4 embers should produce the same amount of damage right? Assuming the crit value is the same at 1 ember and 4 ember. Sheesh..I'm confusing myself. Let's put it this way....with 1 ember and a crit value of say, 150 (<-- just a number pulled out of my ass)...the damage I produce is 200K. With 4 embers, my crit value is again 150...I should produce 200K, correct? Probably making this more difficult than it needs to be.

    2. Under section 2 of the guide, it says this under the bolded type:

    For the time being:
    Grim of Sac: Mastery > Haste == Crit
    Grim of Serv/Sup: Haste==Crit > Mastery


    Then a little bit further down it shows this:

    Single Target:

    Grimoire/Pet DPS Priority
    Sup/Observer 172596 Mastery == Haste > Crit
    Serv/Felhunter 172349 Haste == Mastery > Crit

    2 Target Cleave:

    Grimoire/Pet DPS Priority
    Sup/Observer 222427 Mastery == Haste > Crit
    Sup/Voidlord 222188 Haste > Mastery > Crit


    And then a few posts above the one you're reading now Brusalk says this:

    My most recent research shows Haste + Crit > Mastery to be a general guideline for most gear levels for single target.

    I'm reading all the above as this: Haste==Crit > Mastery is correct while the Single Target/2 Target Cleave priorities are old?

    Thanks for any answers and sorry if these are stupid questions...wouldn't be the first or last time. And thanks again for such a brilliant guide!

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhia View Post
    I don't suppose anyone has definitive answers to the following questions, or maybe the answers are so obvious that the question is redundant, or the answers are extremely situational, but some things I've been wondering about (purely considering single target):

    i) Regarding the haste proc from the shadow-pan assault rep trinket - I'm finding that it and my other trinket are frequently getting out of sync. According to affdots an immolate with relic up is similar in strength to an immolate with rep trinket up. I suspect that if I get the situation where my yulon buff fades just before my acceleration procs, I should recast immolate as soon as it's in the pandemic window, as even though the dps of either immolate might be close, haste buffed one gives me more ember generation?

    ii) Also when dealing with this trinket - during hero + acceleration my rain of fire only lasts about 4.6 seconds. I suspect at this point I should probably back off from trying to keeping rain of fire up quite so much and be trying to spam out more incinerates/cb? I'm not really sure honestly, the interaction between ember generation, mana cost, damage and the gcd cap seems quite complex. Similarly if I'm not going to cap conflag charges should I try to avoid conflag during this trinket proc + hero, as backdraft + trinket proc + hero gives me a 0.78s incinerate cast?

    iii) Does rain of fire ember generation scale with crit like most other abilities? Wondering if the priority changes at all during dark soul.
    i) The current crit rate of your Immolate is by far the most important thing. It's a little nuanced with Haste being a factor, but generally you don't want to refresh Immo when it'll have a lower crit rate than before. Immolate's mainly used for it's ember generation, not really for it's damage.

    ii) Under hero/lust, nothing changes about how good RoF is. You have to cast it more, yes, but you still get the same number of ticks per cast. Obviously you still want to aim to keep Conflag on 0/1 charge and keep Immo up, but beyond that it's probably beneficial to just RoF every 4-5 seconds and spam the hell out of Chaos Bolt with the extra ember generation.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 12:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhia View Post
    I don't suppose anyone has definitive answers to the following questions, or maybe the answers are so obvious that the question is redundant, or the answers are extremely situational, but some things I've been wondering about (purely considering single target):

    i) Regarding the haste proc from the shadow-pan assault rep trinket - I'm finding that it and my other trinket are frequently getting out of sync. According to affdots an immolate with relic up is similar in strength to an immolate with rep trinket up. I suspect that if I get the situation where my yulon buff fades just before my acceleration procs, I should recast immolate as soon as it's in the pandemic window, as even though the dps of either immolate might be close, haste buffed one gives me more ember generation?

    ii) Also when dealing with this trinket - during hero + acceleration my rain of fire only lasts about 4.6 seconds. I suspect at this point I should probably back off from trying to keeping rain of fire up quite so much and be trying to spam out more incinerates/cb? I'm not really sure honestly, the interaction between ember generation, mana cost, damage and the gcd cap seems quite complex. Similarly if I'm not going to cap conflag charges should I try to avoid conflag during this trinket proc + hero, as backdraft + trinket proc + hero gives me a 0.78s incinerate cast?

    iii) Does rain of fire ember generation scale with crit like most other abilities? Wondering if the priority changes at all during dark soul.
    Forgot iii. AFAIK ember generation with RoF doesn't scale with crit like most other abilities.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 01:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by spaztom View Post
    New to destro so a big thanks to this guide and the help it's provided. Have a question or two that don't seem to be answered yet.

    1. Does the amount of Embers you've saved up effect the amount of damage you do with Chaos Bolts? I've not read ANYWHERE that it says it does so using Chaos Bolt with 1 ember as opposed to 4 embers should produce the same amount of damage right? Assuming the crit value is the same at 1 ember and 4 ember. Sheesh..I'm confusing myself. Let's put it this way....with 1 ember and a crit value of say, 150 (<-- just a number pulled out of my ass)...the damage I produce is 200K. With 4 embers, my crit value is again 150...I should produce 200K, correct? Probably making this more difficult than it needs to be.

    2. Under section 2 of the guide, it says this under the bolded type:

    For the time being:
    Grim of Sac: Mastery > Haste == Crit
    Grim of Serv/Sup: Haste==Crit > Mastery


    Then a little bit further down it shows this:

    Single Target:

    Grimoire/Pet DPS Priority
    Sup/Observer 172596 Mastery == Haste > Crit
    Serv/Felhunter 172349 Haste == Mastery > Crit

    2 Target Cleave:

    Grimoire/Pet DPS Priority
    Sup/Observer 222427 Mastery == Haste > Crit
    Sup/Voidlord 222188 Haste > Mastery > Crit


    And then a few posts above the one you're reading now Brusalk says this:

    My most recent research shows Haste + Crit > Mastery to be a general guideline for most gear levels for single target.

    I'm reading all the above as this: Haste==Crit > Mastery is correct while the Single Target/2 Target Cleave priorities are old?

    Thanks for any answers and sorry if these are stupid questions...wouldn't be the first or last time. And thanks again for such a brilliant guide!
    1) It does the same damage regardless of you having 1 ember or 4 embers

    2) I'm super busy ATM, but my most recent posts have my most recent theorycrafting on secondary stats. However, note that Haste + Crit > Mastery is simply a general guideline and basically says the exact same thing as Haste==Crit > Mastery. However, in the first (+), I'm referring directly to the number of rating. In the second (==) I'm simply referring to their stat weights.

    The bolded type is me updating the guide with temporary information about my most recent results. I didn't want to remove the tables entirely as they are still useful if a bit out of date.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    i) The current crit rate of your Immolate is by far the most important thing. It's a little nuanced with Haste being a factor, but generally you don't want to refresh Immo when it'll have a lower crit rate than before. Immolate's mainly used for it's ember generation, not really for it's damage.
    Thanks for the quick reply. So this applies even to crit gain from int procs? I find that a bit surprising to be honest - with my 3 int procs taken together (yulon, lightweave and jade spirit) I only gain about 3% crit, while acceleration's 8800 haste is roughly 21% haste. As far as I can see both crit and haste increase ember generation linearly, so 3% crit should give 3% higher ember generation while 21% haste should give 21% more.

    Aside from that though I guess you wouldn't want to replace a dark soul immolate with, say, a full int procs + haste proc immolate until you had to though.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhia View Post
    Thanks for the quick reply. So this applies even to crit gain from int procs? I find that a bit surprising to be honest - with my 3 int procs taken together (yulon, lightweave and jade spirit) I only gain about 3% crit, while acceleration's 8800 haste is roughly 21% haste. As far as I can see both crit and haste increase ember generation linearly, so 3% crit should give 3% higher ember generation while 21% haste should give 21% more.

    Aside from that though I guess you wouldn't want to replace a dark soul immolate with, say, a full int procs + haste proc immolate until you had to though.
    Wellllllll.. No, not quite.


    Haste doesn't give you more embers directly like 1% crit would. (Strictly speaking in terms of Immolate here)

    1% crit means your immolate will crit 1% of the time.

    1% haste means your immolate will tick 1% faster, and thus in a given time period x% more chances to crit.



    Now, if Immolate always granted and ember and granted 2 emberbits on crit like Conflag/Incinerate/Fel Flame then you'd be correct. The value of haste vs crit speaking in terms of immolate isn't as cut and dry as 3%crit gives 3% more embers, and 3% more haste gives 3% more embers.

  15. #295
    Aha, didn't realise it was only a chance from ticks and not guaranteed, thanks.

  16. #296
    Assuming a baseline of 20% crit and 20% haste, an additional 21% haste gives you 17.5% more embers over time while an additional 3% crit gives you 15% more embers over time. Which one is best will depend on how you reforge.
    http://wowupgrade.com/ - instant gear comparison for all classes / specs

  17. #297
    Nice work!

    I'm fairly new to this theorycrafting and am wondering now how I can calculate the scaling factors.

    1) Is it just by simulating it with my current gear as then I get Mastery as a clear winner every time (10k iter).

    2) Also I read a couple of times here that there is no haste soft cap for destro, but on our realm locks state it's 11% ? Only haste breakpoints I know off is for Immo ticks.


    Thanks in advance

    - Learning lock -

  18. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukiyo View Post
    Nice work!

    I'm fairly new to this theorycrafting and am wondering now how I can calculate the scaling factors.

    1) Is it just by simulating it with my current gear as then I get Mastery as a clear winner every time (10k iter).

    2) Also I read a couple of times here that there is no haste soft cap for destro, but on our realm locks state it's 11% ? Only haste breakpoints I know off is for Immo ticks.


    Thanks in advance

    - Learning lock -
    how many targets are you simming with to get mastery as your main stat?
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  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukiyo View Post
    Nice work!

    I'm fairly new to this theorycrafting and am wondering now how I can calculate the scaling factors.

    1) Is it just by simulating it with my current gear as then I get Mastery as a clear winner every time (10k iter).
    If you simmed correctly then it's very possible you get different results since you have a different gear (lower I'd guess ?). You should reforge according to your results.
    Also, i'ts a dynamic process, you should resim after a couple of reforge and draw reforge plot to see if its going in the right direction.


    2) Also I read a couple of times here that there is no haste soft cap for destro, but on our realm locks state it's 11% ? Only haste breakpoints I know off is for Immo ticks.
    Afaik, there is no real haste point that destro should aim for.
    5.1 16/16 HC 5.2 12/12

  20. #300
    I have some questions regarding affli vs destro.
    1. which one is the highest dps spec of them atm? because I do 95-100k dps on dummy as destro and significantly lower as affli but on bosses its the opposite
    2. what should I do when I use dark soul? I get 3.5-4 embers and then I use CB until I have 1 ember left
    3. should I keep RoF up on single-target or is that a dps loss?

    I should probably also mention that I run with 6.7k haste and 7.2k mastery, hit capped ofc
    Last edited by apo; 2013-03-16 at 07:15 PM.

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