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  1. #21
    Ahh sweet guide!

    Question about WeakAuras and Soul Leach: Do you know how to configure Weak Auras to show how big the shield is from Soul Leach?
    That is, if you're actually using Soul Leach.

    EDIT: Ahh, just read the post where you said you pretty much didn't use any WeakAuras!
    If anyone know how to show Soul Leach though, please say!
    Last edited by Lemie; 2013-03-07 at 12:01 AM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Grimoire/Pet DPS Priority
    Sup/Observer 172596 Mastery == Haste > Crit
    Weird. My SimC tells me the complete opposite. I suppose it has to do gear levels.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinj View Post
    Weird. My SimC tells me the complete opposite. I suppose it has to do gear levels.
    What do you mean by complete opposite?

    I'm unsure as to why, but the listing in simc reports of the form "A > B > C" is actually the logical negation of what it should be. What I reported is the actual priority as given by the stat weights themselves.

    Example:
    Haste: 3
    Mastery: 2
    Crit: 2

    SimC Priority Result:
    Crit ~= Mastery > Haste

  4. #24
    Brusalk!

    Thanks for the guide! Excelent! It will be very helpful!

  5. #25
    I started out today with an affliction reforge (high haste/high mastery) and decided after the raid to go destro - I ran a sim with that affliction reforge (think it was 6700 haste and 7200 mastery or something to that extent) and it returned something like this: crit: 2.20, haste: 2.0, mastery: 1.7. Following that, I ran some reforge plots (started with 5000-500 and narrowed it in to 500-50 (amount:step amount) and basically ended up with the same results. At no point did mastery appear to be the preferable choice.

    One thing I did notice, however, was that when I maxed out crit or kept a balance of crit/haste while keeping mastery as low as possible, that the value of mastery did increase somewhat. Right now, for instance, I'm sitting at 2350 mastery and my scale factors are crit: 2.01, haste: 2.10, mastery:2.05. However, that is in no way representative, as any increase/reforging towards mastery would immediately show it to be worse than crit and/or haste.

    This is reflected in these charts as well (i've run this with more iterations that showed the same - i just didnt keep the results, so this will have to suffice):


    In the top chart, which is a crit->mastery/mastery->crit reforge-plot we can see that reforging crit to mastery would be a dps loss. If we had to optimise that reforge, i'd have to (acc to the reforge-plot) take out even more mastery. Which I can't, however, since i'm already at my lowest point.

    In the middle chart the exact same as above is the case. Reforging haste to mastery would be a dps loss.

    I think the reason why the official simcraft (http://simulationcraft.org/520/Warlock.html) says the priority is haste>mastery>crit is because:

    1) better gear - crit becomes noticably worse at higher ilvls - it doesn't scale as linearly as other stats


    2) mastery is over-valued in the sim for the same reasons as in my case: Check the profile for the official Warlock-sim and you'll see:
    Gear Summary
    # gear_strength=80
    # gear_agility=80
    # gear_stamina=26255
    # gear_intellect=21704
    # gear_spirit=80
    # gear_spell_power=10078
    # gear_hit_rating=5099
    # gear_crit_rating=8606
    # gear_haste_rating=8872
    # gear_mastery_rating=3822

    Mastery here is very very low compared to haste/crit, which reflects my findings very well as well (when crit/haste got high, the value of mastery increased, but only at that particular level). I'm almost willing to bet that if you reforged that official warlock-sim to follow the scale factors it suggests with that particular reforge/stat allocation, that it'd sim lower.

    Guess my point is that you can't trust scale factors blindly.

    Anyway, I might be wrong

    Great guide btw

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinj View Post
    I started out today with an affliction reforge (high haste/high mastery) and decided after the raid to go destro - I ran a sim with that affliction reforge (think it was 6700 haste and 7200 mastery or something to that extent) and it returned something like this: crit: 2.20, haste: 2.0, mastery: 1.7. Following that, I ran some reforge plots (started with 5000-500 and narrowed it in to 500-50 (amount:step amount) and basically ended up with the same results. At no point did mastery appear to be the preferable choice.

    One thing I did notice, however, was that when I maxed out crit or kept a balance of crit/haste while keeping mastery as low as possible, that the value of mastery did increase somewhat. Right now, for instance, I'm sitting at 2350 mastery and my scale factors are crit: 2.01, haste: 2.10, mastery:2.05. However, that is in no way representative, as any increase/reforging towards mastery would immediately show it to be worse than crit and/or haste.

    This is reflected in these charts as well (i've run this with more iterations that showed the same - i just didnt keep the results, so this will have to suffice):


    In the top chart, which is a crit->mastery/mastery->crit reforge-plot we can see that reforging crit to mastery would be a dps loss. If we had to optimise that reforge, i'd have to (acc to the reforge-plot) take out even more mastery. Which I can't, however, since i'm already at my lowest point.

    In the middle chart the exact same as above is the case. Reforging haste to mastery would be a dps loss.

    I think the reason why the official simcraft (http://simulationcraft.org/520/Warlock.html) says the priority is haste>mastery>crit is because:

    1) better gear - crit becomes noticably worse at higher ilvls - it doesn't scale as linearly as other stats


    2) mastery is over-valued in the sim for the same reasons as in my case: Check the profile for the official Warlock-sim and you'll see:
    Gear Summary
    # gear_strength=80
    # gear_agility=80
    # gear_stamina=26255
    # gear_intellect=21704
    # gear_spirit=80
    # gear_spell_power=10078
    # gear_hit_rating=5099
    # gear_crit_rating=8606
    # gear_haste_rating=8872
    # gear_mastery_rating=3822

    Mastery here is very very low compared to haste/crit, which reflects my findings very well as well (when crit/haste got high, the value of mastery increased, but only at that particular level). I'm almost willing to bet that if you reforged that official warlock-sim to follow the scale factors it suggests with that particular reforge/stat allocation, that it'd sim lower.

    Guess my point is that you can't trust scale factors blindly.

    Anyway, I might be wrong

    Great guide btw

    Hmm. I will have to look into this more tomorrow. Thanks for investigating this! I'll be sure to update the post

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-06 at 06:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by calanos View Post
    Did you go mannoroths fury for Horridon?
    No. I was KJC just because it makes learning fights really easy.

    Even without MF I found I was able to RoF the groups of adds relatively easily, and was able to AoE. (A great part about that boss too, is that the boss if he's tanked even just somewhat near the adds, the RoF will still hit him)

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-06 at 06:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Xorn View Post
    First of all, I love you and everything you do. I especially love that you referenced me in your bit about Skull/Banner. However, 2 things about it (and sorry if they've been mentioned, having a tough time reading it on my device):

    1) I renamed myself on the forums, no big deal, but now my name actually matches my lock.
    2) I made those calculations when I thought that CB scaled point for point with crit % as if it were crit damage. I now know that is NOT the case, as both the Lei Shen trinket and the 100% crit buff that certain mobs put on the ground do NOT increase CB damage by 100% but rather by a MUCH smaller scale. Therefore I believe that 20% crit damage might be more valuable than I initially thought, but it will require more testing.

    This does, however, assume that the poor CB damage with 120% crit is intended and not a bug. Someone should tweet GC and ask for the crit calculation portion of CB to find out if it's a bug or if it' natural scaling.
    Most of what's there is still correct, so I don't think it's too far off from the truth.

  7. #27
    Yeah, something's weird, that's for sure. But I'm not sure how much it would all matter, really. The difference, as you can tell from the charts, is maybe like 1k dps. And we're only talking about straight up single target dps - something that affliction does better anyway. For the most part, where destro shines is when adds are in the picture - we have the 2 target cleave option in simulationcraft, but that only (afaik) simulates 2 mobs being alive for an entire fight (think morchok).

    My point is that, yes, even if i'm right and it's not mastery=haste>crit, then that's only for pure single target fights. It's nearly impossible to tell how a stat like mastery would fare in a dynamic raid environment with low HP-adds coming and going. Intuitively, I'd say that mastery would be better than what's reflected in the charts that I posted - but I'm not sure we can ever get simc to simulate/emulate that perfectly.

    What if, in a real raiding environment, mastery would be the go-to stat and simulationcraft just can't model it properly due to its limitations? If so, we're effectively gimping ourselves by adhering blindly to our 'must max out single-target dps'-god. And this is coming from someone who's used and believed in simc almost religiously for a long time ^^


    Errr, it's late and I'm blathering...sorry
    Last edited by Sinj; 2013-03-07 at 02:39 AM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Sabsy View Post
    What do you think the BiS trinkets are for destro this patch? I assume it's going to be Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance & Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen but wasn't too sure, especially since some trinkets are bugged atm :/ you should update your original trinket values chart

    How would you value the VP trinket? I was debating buying it to replace my Light of Cosmos or Relic of Yu'lon (never had any luck with Sha dropping his trinket)
    I definitely think that Unerring is going to be BiS just because of the ember generation gained by having a full immolate always crit.

    As for Cha-ye VS Wushoolay's, I'm not sure and I haven't really done any looking into the trinkets.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-06 at 06:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Algekevin View Post
    Brusaaaaaaaaaaalk! So glad this is released and thanks for it! A couple of things I noticed however is that FnB is now a 10 yard range(assuming the 15 yard range was written before the nerf), and Int/Expertise is an orange gem so would be for yellow sockets(unless mastery/haste are better for that), not blue.

    Other than that, would it be viable to basically be using affliction stats/gear(gemming mastery, going for 6637 haste breakpoint then stacking mastery, hit capping) since haste == mastery using GoSup Observer for single target and cleave? Or would it be a noticeable dps increase to gem for int still?
    Thanks for noticing those!

    I can't say it'd be noticeable, but it will have an effect over the long term. I'd say it depends on how often you're planning on going affliction. If you're 50/50'ing it you need to make the decision on which spec you want to take a hit with.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-06 at 06:49 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Xorn View Post
    So, I wanted to know: what is the best strategy for dealing with a Lei Shen trinket proc. Since Demo is big on double casting Doom for the proc, I thought perhaps Destro might do the same with Immolate. So I did an experiment on a dummy. My haste right now is 3982, and casting two back to back Immolates gave me 8 total ticks before it expired. Now, that's 8 ember bits, since all would crit. Now, knowing that 100% crit does NOT double CB damage, it seems to me that this is a FAR more effective strategy than casting 1 CB. What we lose in damage is more than made up for by the Immolate damage and the near extra CB

    But, wait, there's more. Since Immolate is only a 1.38 second cast (for me anyway) I thought, why not add something else to the window? So I cast a fel flame, which, although hitting a cap on the duration, did provide a 9th tick on the dot, giving us 9 ember bits, and the 2 from the FF crit brings us to 11.

    So then I got to thinking: why reapply the dot when I can FF it back to full? So I figure that the average player could probably squeeze 3 FF casts into the trinket window. Depending on how much time Immolate had left when I started the FF casts, it gained an additional 8-10 (!) ticks, which translates to 14-16 extra ember bits.

    To me, this seems to be the best choice of action when using that trinket, as it provides decent FF and Immolate damage, as well as 1.5 extra CB on average. Now, the question becomes: what if I had more haste? What if I reached the next tick? What if this was during BL? What if the Meta gem had procced? What if all of the above? I could see this easily generating 20+ ember bits in such a scenario.

    However, I'm not great with Simcraft. So... if someone else is... perhaps they could look into this for us? =D

    Just looking at immolate with 0 haste, it has a duration of 15 seconds (5 ticks) and a pandemic max duration of 21 seconds (7 ticks).

    Fel flame increases the duration of immolate by 6 seconds (or in other words it gives 2 ticks):

    3 fel flames would give 18 seconds on your dot, which means you'd hit max duration if you still had 1 tick left.

    So basically the difference between casting 3x Fel Flame over 1 Immolate is:
    • 2 less GCDs (2 incinerates)
    • 1 less 100% crit tick, therefore 1 less emberbit.

    My gut feeling and thoughts is that 3x Fel Flame would be a better use of the proc than casting an immolate. I'll look into this more.

  9. #29
    Yeah Destru Guide thx man ! <3
    Really thx for this cool Guide, what do you think which item lvl you need when GoSac is again better then GoSup?
    On manaflask affli Guide they say you need a item lvl 525 is that for Destru the same?
    How big is the dps difference between GoSac and GoSup, if we would play it with perfect second stats?

    Have i said thats a great Guide?
    Greets
    Last edited by Kuwolski; 2013-03-07 at 08:09 AM.

  10. #30
    Moderator Kerdoz's Avatar
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    Will take a deeper look into this and try destro later today! Thanks alot

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwolski View Post
    Yeah Destru Guide thx man ! <3
    Really thx for this cool Guide, what do you think which item lvl you need when GoSac is again better then GoSup?
    On manaflask affli Guide they say you need a item lvl 525 is that for Destru the same?
    How big is the dps difference between GoSac and GoSup, if we would play it with perfect second stats?

    Have i said thats a great Guide?
    Greets
    Single target gosac is absolutely terrible. Don't use it. It won't ever catch up to Sup/Serv on single target unless there's a boss mechanic that increases personal damage and no the pets, or your pet can't attack.

  12. #32
    Brusalk,

    I play in 10man raid like you! What is your first impression using destro (haste>mastery) in new raid compared with the others dps players?

    Are you respecting simcraft about pets choice and using observer? IMO, we have a small difference between pets! Maybe fel imp or shiv shines during fights where you need to change your target! What do you think about this?

    Thanks!

  13. #33
    Still unsure as the amount of haste vs mastery I should have. I do understand that they're very close but I'm reaching about ~7.5k haste but could have much more if I wanted to. Not sure if it's worth actually pushing more haste so I could reach that haste plateau for immolate (roughly 10k I believe).

    However with that much haste, I know my incinerates are going to be reaching <1sec cast time, especially if I use the VP trinket. I'm going assume the maximum haste I want is enough so that my incinerates never go under 1sec, otherwise I won't be gaining anymore dps from my incinerates with extra haste.

    Obviously one thing I could do is sim all of this, but sims have been a bit buggy for me so I don't really want to rely on it TOO much.

    Also I'm still unsure as to why a lot of people aren't agreeing on which pet to use. In another thread someone swore that fel imp was giving them noticeably higher dps, but mostly I've been reading observer being better.

  14. #34
    Imp will almost never be a better choice in a raid environment (long story short: all the actual tests showing Imp on top are on dummies which inflates the figures for Imps).

    As for Observer vs Shivarra, the former is apparently 200 dps better than the latter at most. My anecdotal testings in raid have shown the opposite but only because of particular conditions: for starters, the Shivarra has semi-ranged attacks which helps for target swaps ; secondly, my raid lacks the attack speed buff which benefits the Observer more than the Shivarra.
    Interested in light analysis, ramblings and other
    shenanigans about rogues? Check Badstabbers.

  15. #35
    Field Marshal Undercroft's Avatar
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    I've only used imp so far since i wanted the dispel to help out on p1 of horridon. I'll likely be using shivvy/eyeball on the other fights, probably with prevalence of shivvy for add swap fights (yay semi-ranged).

    As for stats i've actually gone for some demo reforges since i swap specs pretty evenly and the destro stats seem pretty level anyways.
    Imperial Vizier Zor'lok at 20% or lower? Check.
    Shadowpriest currently under mind control? Check.
    Havoc off cooldown and three burning embers ready? Check.
    Hilarious friendly kill performed by the Warlock? Check.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Just looking at immolate with 0 haste, it has a duration of 15 seconds (5 ticks) and a pandemic max duration of 21 seconds (7 ticks).

    Fel flame increases the duration of immolate by 6 seconds (or in other words it gives 2 ticks):

    3 fel flames would give 18 seconds on your dot, which means you'd hit max duration if you still had 1 tick left.

    So basically the difference between casting 3x Fel Flame over 1 Immolate is:
    • 2 less GCDs (2 incinerates)
    • 1 less 100% crit tick, therefore 1 less emberbit.

    My gut feeling and thoughts is that 3x Fel Flame would be a better use of the proc than casting an immolate. I'll look into this more.
    Oh, I completely agree, I was just explaining the process that led to my conclusion. Also, you don't really lose a tick of 100% crit Immolate if Immolate has 3+ seconds left on it, in fact sometimes you gain an additional tick (beyond the Pandemic normal) if Immolate ticks while you are casting your second or third Fel Flame.

    The main question I have here is how haste factors into this, and whether having the trinket would would warrant a different gear setup than not having it. For example, not being entirely Haste focused, but going for a specific break point, something we have previously not been concerned with.

  17. #37
    Keyboard Turner Chaosbeard's Avatar
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    Really enjoying new destro so far. I've only killed up to Horridon in my 25m(missed out Council kill), and it seemed to perform great. Fire and Brimstone with Mannaroth's Fury really made hitting *everything* super awesome.

    With a haste > mastery build is it more beneficial to cleave 3x Incinerate with Havoc or is Chaos Bolt still the 'go to' for havoc cleave?

  18. #38
    Your pet rankings are pretty different from the breakdown over at Simcraft.

    Is this because of the gear they ran their sims in? If so, I'm thinking I'd be better off running Felhunter until I top out in T15.

    Guess I will sim when I get home. >.>

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Aruotnof View Post
    Brusalk,

    I play in 10man raid like you! What is your first impression using destro (haste>mastery) in new raid compared with the others dps players?

    Are you respecting simcraft about pets choice and using observer? IMO, we have a small difference between pets! Maybe fel imp or shiv shines during fights where you need to change your target! What do you think about this?

    Thanks!
    On single target fights I use the observer. On target switch fights like Dark Animus I use the imp.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-07 at 02:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Xorn View Post
    Oh, I completely agree, I was just explaining the process that led to my conclusion. Also, you don't really lose a tick of 100% crit Immolate if Immolate has 3+ seconds left on it, in fact sometimes you gain an additional tick (beyond the Pandemic normal) if Immolate ticks while you are casting your second or third Fel Flame.

    The main question I have here is how haste factors into this, and whether having the trinket would would warrant a different gear setup than not having it. For example, not being entirely Haste focused, but going for a specific break point, something we have previously not been concerned with.
    Having Lei-shen will probably increase the value of going for a haste breakpoint for Immolate, but I'm unsure whether that being the case means that we should go for it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-07 at 02:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaosbeard View Post
    Really enjoying new destro so far. I've only killed up to Horridon in my 25m(missed out Council kill), and it seemed to perform great. Fire and Brimstone with Mannaroth's Fury really made hitting *everything* super awesome.

    With a haste > mastery build is it more beneficial to cleave 3x Incinerate with Havoc or is Chaos Bolt still the 'go to' for havoc cleave?
    Chaos Bolt is still better, but if the damage on the secondary target doesn't matter (Hydra boss: Merga?), then you should havoc incinerates to use the extra embers on the head that does matter.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-07 at 03:06 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulu View Post
    Your pet rankings are pretty different from the breakdown over at Simcraft.

    Is this because of the gear they ran their sims in? If so, I'm thinking I'd be better off running Felhunter until I top out in T15.

    Guess I will sim when I get home. >.>
    I should update that section with the DPS error reported by simcraft. For all intents and purposes (using the simulationcraft.org list you linked) Felhunter down to Voidwalker are exactly the same (the DPS Error bounds of those 3 pets intersect). The error for all the players in that list is about 100-120. So really those numbers are

    Felhunter: 124714 +- 110
    Succubus: 124558 +- 110
    ...
    Observer: 124438 +- 110


    which more accurately puts the list more like:

    Felhunter: 124614 - 124814
    Succubus: 124458 - 124658
    ...
    Observer: 124428 - 124628

    etc.

    I would feel completely at ease with suggesting that you use the following:
    Lots of target switching or an air phase: Imp
    Single Target or very little switching: The pet that offers the best utility for the fight


    The differences between pets at this point is so small that any discussion on using one pet over the other is talking about maybe 1% of theoretical max DPS in T14H gear (using the simulationcraft.org numbers you mentioned): (124714-123363)/124714 = Using Fel Imp over Observer % DPS loss = 1.08328 %

    A 1% theoretical difference between using the Fel Imp and using a Felhunter is probably less noticeable than rotational or mechanical mistakes that you make in a fight. (Not to say that it doesn't matter, but that the difference is so small, the added utility is most likely worth it if you can help out in the encounter by using one pet over the other)

  20. #40
    My group is having issues interrupting on the second door. Should I go service felhunt for the extra interrupt or observer or sac felhunt. Then, there's the question of... is it worth it? Is it better for me to be doing better DPS? Sac felhunt was serving me well last night, but sup imp or serv imp might be better DPS overall.

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