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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    The differences between pets at this point is so small that any discussion on using one pet over the other is talking about maybe 1% of theoretical max DPS in T14H gear (using the simulationcraft.org numbers you mentioned): (124714-123363)/124714 = Using Fel Imp over Observer % DPS loss = 1.08328 %

    A 1% theoretical difference between using the Fel Imp and using a Felhunter is probably less noticeable than rotational or mechanical mistakes that you make in a fight. (Not to say that it doesn't matter, but that the difference is so small, the added utility is most likely worth it if you can help out in the encounter by using one pet over the other)

    Brusalk,

    Thanks for the answer!

    I did many simulation with my gear (+/-495) and all the time simcraft show me Crit>Haste>Mastery in single target figths with GoSup. If I force Haste==Mastery>Crit, I got a little dps loss (< 3%). I will do Throne of Thunder today with Haste==Mastery>Crit to test like you suggested, because I think it will be better to attack 2 or more targets. Later, I will give my feedback to you!

    Thanks again!
    Last edited by Aruotnof; 2013-03-08 at 12:22 AM.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Aruotnof View Post
    Brusalk,

    Thanks for the answer!

    I did many simulation with my gear (+/-495) and all the time simcraft show me Crit>Haste>Mastery in single target figths with GoSup. If I force Haste==Mastery>Crit, I got a little dps loss (< 3%). I will do Throne of Thunder today with Haste==Mastery>Crit to test like you suggested, because I think it will be better to attack 2 or more targets. Later I will give my feedback to you!

    Thanks again!
    You're not the only one getting this result in non-T15H gear. It's possible that the T15H gear has specific stats levels that yield the results that I got, which are not the "normal" results that would be expected. Over the next few days I'm incredibly, incredibly busy with school and the new patch, but on Tuesday I'm aiming to do more detailed gear/simming of Destro and stat weights. (Perhaps including reforge plots, but I haven't decided yet)

  3. #43
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    I was quite disappointed tonight on Iron Qon. I tried GoSac Mast, GoSup Mast, GoSup Haste/crit... I was always in the three last spots of my raid, not sure how this was possible after last night's awesomeness. I switched to Affli and gained like 40k DPS, ok... o_O weird
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  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    I was quite disappointed tonight on Iron Qon. I tried GoSac Mast, GoSup Mast, GoSup Haste/crit... I was always in the three last spots of my raid, not sure how this was possible after last night's awesomeness. I switched to Affli and gained like 40k DPS, ok... o_O weird
    Thats very odd, we just pulled that fight, but both warlocks in our raid are playing as afflic.
    Cyner#1996

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    I was quite disappointed tonight on Iron Qon. I tried GoSac Mast, GoSup Mast, GoSup Haste/crit... I was always in the three last spots of my raid, not sure how this was possible after last night's awesomeness. I switched to Affli and gained like 40k DPS, ok... o_O weird
    What DPS were you pulling? I was top on every attempt and on our kill and I was using GoSup obs with Haste > Crit > Mastery

  6. #46
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    What DPS were you pulling? I was top on every attempt and on our kill and I was using GoSup obs with Haste > Crit > Mastery
    After the first mount I was at around 130k as Destro and 170k as Aff. Perhaps there would have been less gap after 10ish min
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  7. #47
    Hello. Tonight was our second night in ToT and I decided to go destruction for Primordius and Dark Anima. I noticed that I was getting some really good numbers (/reports/kjmp2nl8k3naj3wu/) - WoL numbers. But the thing is that since I just changed from my affliction spec, I was gemmed/reforged for affliction which for me is around 6637 haste and the rest into mastery - so I played with GoSac. I was wondering if I would be able to pull more numbers with GoSup - basically, my question is whether GoSac is still better on cleave fights, or if GoSup is the way to go on all fights (or there being a very small DPS difference)? If that is the case, I would be able to go with the Haste - Crit - Mastery reforge all the way and stick with Destro (my favorite spec by far).

    Thanks in advance.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuud View Post
    Hello. Tonight was our second night in ToT and I decided to go destruction for Primordius and Dark Anima. I noticed that I was getting some really good numbers (/reports/kjmp2nl8k3naj3wu/) - WoL numbers. But the thing is that since I just changed from my affliction spec, I was gemmed/reforged for affliction which for me is around 6637 haste and the rest into mastery - so I played with GoSac. I was wondering if I would be able to pull more numbers with GoSup - basically, my question is whether GoSac is still better on cleave fights, or if GoSup is the way to go on all fights (or there being a very small DPS difference)? If that is the case, I would be able to go with the Haste - Crit - Mastery reforge all the way and stick with Destro (my favorite spec by far).

    Thanks in advance.
    100% 2 target cleave with GoSup/GoSac is still better than 100% 2 target cleave with GoSac.

    The only time (and I'm not entirely sure this is the case) that we'll ever use GoSac is when a pet is bad for an encounter, or if we spend the vast majority of our time using ember consumers (CB/SB). Just having cleave be present is no longer a reason to use GoSac.

    GoSac on single target is far and away worse than any pet you choose to roll with, as they decided to balance GoSac as destro around 2 target damage, rather than 1, which left 1 target damage with GoSac extremely bad.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinj View Post
    I started out today with an affliction reforge (high haste/high mastery) and decided after the raid to go destro - I ran a sim with that affliction reforge (think it was 6700 haste and 7200 mastery or something to that extent) and it returned something like this: crit: 2.20, haste: 2.0, mastery: 1.7. Following that, I ran some reforge plots (started with 5000-500 and narrowed it in to 500-50 (amount:step amount) and basically ended up with the same results. At no point did mastery appear to be the preferable choice.

    One thing I did notice, however, was that when I maxed out crit or kept a balance of crit/haste while keeping mastery as low as possible, that the value of mastery did increase somewhat. Right now, for instance, I'm sitting at 2350 mastery and my scale factors are crit: 2.01, haste: 2.10, mastery:2.05. However, that is in no way representative, as any increase/reforging towards mastery would immediately show it to be worse than crit and/or haste.

    This is reflected in these charts as well (i've run this with more iterations that showed the same - i just didnt keep the results, so this will have to suffice):
    *SNIP*

    In the top chart, which is a crit->mastery/mastery->crit reforge-plot we can see that reforging crit to mastery would be a dps loss. If we had to optimise that reforge, i'd have to (acc to the reforge-plot) take out even more mastery. Which I can't, however, since i'm already at my lowest point.

    In the middle chart the exact same as above is the case. Reforging haste to mastery would be a dps loss.

    I think the reason why the official simcraft (http://simulationcraft.org/520/Warlock.html) says the priority is haste>mastery>crit is because:

    1) better gear - crit becomes noticably worse at higher ilvls - it doesn't scale as linearly as other stats


    2) mastery is over-valued in the sim for the same reasons as in my case: Check the profile for the official Warlock-sim and you'll see:
    Gear Summary
    # gear_strength=80
    # gear_agility=80
    # gear_stamina=26255
    # gear_intellect=21704
    # gear_spirit=80
    # gear_spell_power=10078
    # gear_hit_rating=5099
    # gear_crit_rating=8606
    # gear_haste_rating=8872
    # gear_mastery_rating=3822

    Mastery here is very very low compared to haste/crit, which reflects my findings very well as well (when crit/haste got high, the value of mastery increased, but only at that particular level). I'm almost willing to bet that if you reforged that official warlock-sim to follow the scale factors it suggests with that particular reforge/stat allocation, that it'd sim lower.

    Guess my point is that you can't trust scale factors blindly.

    Anyway, I might be wrong

    Great guide btw
    I'm just here with more more data. I did another round of reforge plots after I managed to shave off some extra mastery. Like I mentioned above, I believe the scale factors (solely for single target, at least) posted in the OP as well as in simcraft are misleading; something my earlier post (quoted here) touched upon as well.

    In short, reforge plots show that mastery is actually the worst single-target stat. However, SimulationCraft will show mastery to be a decent stat if we solely look at the scale factors - particularly when the character that's being profiled has high haste and crit along with relatively low amounts of mastery (which is the case with my sim + the official SimulationCraft T15HC Warlock profile):



    Exactly why it does that, I don't know. All I know is that if we were to act according to the scale factors only (as for instance in my sim) then that'd lead to a DPS loss as evidenced by the reforge plots.

    I believe we should trust reforge plots over scale factors alone since scale factors are only a snapshot of the value of stats at one particular stat distribution; reforge plots, on the other hand, show how stats behave over far greater stat range, and isn't that what we're ultimately using SimulationCraft for? For deciding which stats are worth the most, not necessarily now, but when that juicy upgrade drops?

    I see two courses of action available to us if we want to get to the bottom of this:

    1) Abandon looking solely at scale factors, which would mean we disregard the scale factors suggested by the OP/the official simcraft T15HC Warlock sim

    This is maybe a bit drastic - Without having actually tested it myself I can't say with 100% certainty that the T15HC-warlock profile won't show that the stat priority is idd what it claims to be in the scale factors. All I'm saying is that at this point, and with reference to the image I've posted in this thread, we cannot with confidence claim that mastery>=haste>crit. On the contrary; which leads me to 2)

    2) Run reforge plots for the official T15HC Warlock profile and see if the behaviour from my sim can be reproduced (that is, if the scale factors are actually misleading).


    EDIT:

    Running those simulations now - will return with results soon.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 08:39 AM ----------

    Alright, so here are the results. One preliminary comment, though:

    - Even though I (literally) copy-pasted the entire profile from the SimulationCraft-site my results still differ from the one posted at Simulationcraft.org. At first I thought it was because they used a special APL, but that can't be it since I copy-pasted the APL as well. I'm kinda stumped. Regardless, that shouldn't invalidate my results.

    Now on to the results:


    At first, these results surprised me a bit. Let's start with a breakdown and see why:

    Haste
    Haste seems to be the go-to stat, trumping all the other stats in every possible scenario. Haste, in other words, is better than crit (see the top chart) and mastery (see the bottom chart), it would appear.

    I'm really confused as to why the top chart from the T15HC profile differs so much from mine. You'd expect the pattern to be somewhat similar, yet the charts are very dissimilar.

    Crit
    while still being a good stat, has lost of its force with increased ilvl. This doesn't surprise me personally: I think it's common knowledge that an increase from 1% to 2% crit is a bigger dps increase than 50%-51% (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Crit simply doesn't scale as linearly as we'd like it to

    Mastery
    I'm not sure what to make of these results when it comes to mastery. While haste clearly wins over mastery in the bottom chart, in the middle chart it seems like it'd be better to take some of the crit and put it into mastery (something like 1000-1100; we'd need a more fine-grained reforge plot to be able to tell precisely, but i'm not sure it'd be worth it, since we're only talking about 130-150 dps). Despite this, and exactly because it's only 130-150 dps we're talking about, I think it'd be safe to say that crit is still better than mastery for pure single target.

    But this middle chart puzzles me greatly - what exactly happens when the curve breaks? in my chart, the value of crit in favour of mastery is steadily increasing; now it suddenly breaks. Bit confused - sure, crit doesn't scale linearly, but this is way too drastic for it to have something to do with that, imo.

    Scale factors
    Hehe, see...this is where it gets interesting.

    Haste > mastery > crit

    See, if we were to decide which stat is better solely by looking at these scale factors I sincerely think we'd be doing ourselves a disservice. Crit as the worst stat? Not according to the reforge plots: Mastery is only better on a small peak on the curve on Crit-Mastery reforge plot. If mastery indeed was better than crit, we'd get a reforge plot for crit-mastery with a steady decline/increase (not a statistician so don't know the term for it, sorry - but like it'd look like this: \ . At least, that's how I read that chart.


    Conclusion:
    It would seem (to me at least) that I was right in believing the scale factors were somewhat misleading. However, the T15HC Warlock sim also showed that mastery, at those item levels, isn't as bad as it is in our current gear. But to say that people in our gear should be aiming for a stat priority like the one a T15HC geared warlock, would be misleading, in my opinion.

    Anyway, I hope you can use this information.
    Last edited by Sinj; 2013-03-08 at 07:51 AM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinj View Post
    Anyway, I hope you can use this information.
    Thank you very much for the work! On Tuesday I'll do some more work of my own and see if I corroborate your results!


    Tonight we killed Lei-shen and seeing as it's a fight that a lot of people haven't seen yet and it's the end boss I recorded our kill of it for funsies and in case anyone wanted to take a look at the fight from a Destro PoV:



    I was using the Imp because his 3-target dispel is quite useful for the stun from the torus-lightning ring mechanic.

  11. #51
    finally what i have been looking for these past days. been playing my lock and knowing that its broken since i could not find any valuable source to reforge based on 5.2 changes

    so thank you Brusalk and the rest of the ppl that pinched in to give their own experience.

    unfortunately, since destro output became after this patch at the bottom of the lock specialization, its been hard to find ppl with good guides such as this and simcraft and whatnot interested in us, the dying warlock breed!!! but as i always believed, its not the spec but the enjoyment on the way to play that makes a class fun or not. add to that the green fire (hopefully will get it soon) and i find myself sticking to destro even more.

    anyways, to my issue, and since i hate/fail at math and numbers, i cant seem to work myself well on simcraft as you guys do so im turning my issue to you if u could help.

    488 ilevel destro lock with GoSUP (observer).

    and my question is, after reaching the 5100 hit, shall i stick on gettin 4717 haste then crit mastery? in other words should desto locks in 5.2 at my ilevel get to the haste threshold of 4717? and if yes, on wowreforge.com, what r the weights i need to put in to get my optimal performance.

    i thank you a lot for reading/replying to me and keep up the good work,

    cheers

    PS: i wish Evrelia does a destruction video guide as he always does for affliction

  12. #52
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    This encounter is really beautiful, I loved it on the PTR Gz
    Just a question : why didn't you AoE, adds aren't really a threat ?
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  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    This encounter is really beautiful, I loved it on the PTR Gz
    Just a question : why didn't you AoE, adds aren't really a threat ?
    I tried to convince them to just stack up and AoE for those spawns, but I guess the argument is that we needed single target damage and the adds weren't killing anyone.

    (Not that I mind terribly because it gives me a large amount of extra embers by being able to RoF boss + melee embers, and slowly pick off the adds with shadowburns while spamming chaos bolts :P)

  14. #54
    I´m having some doubts stats wise. I always played goSac and focused on mastery. I´m trying playing with fel imp now. Why do u guys say to go haste now? What about all those bonus that mastery still give to our main spells?

    I´m a destro PvP lock btw

  15. #55
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    (Not that I mind terribly because it gives me a large amount of extra embers by being able to RoF boss + melee embers, and slowly pick off the adds with shadowburns while spamming chaos bolts :P)
    Yeah its not like we don't like having targets lying around
    I will give Destro another try tonight on Iron Qon (my guild already sucked on the PTR on this one).

    I see you have the special trinket Brusalk, have you got some testing going on ?
    Last edited by Zumzumzum; 2013-03-08 at 07:41 PM.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Thank you very much for the work! On Tuesday I'll do some more work of my own and see if I corroborate your results!


    Tonight we killed Lei-shen and seeing as it's a fight that a lot of people haven't seen yet and it's the end boss I recorded our kill of it for funsies and in case anyone wanted to take a look at the fight from a Destro PoV:



    I was using the Imp because his 3-target dispel is quite useful for the stun from the torus-lightning ring mechanic.
    Maybe I'm just an idiot, but where on your UI does it show how many burning embers you have?

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    Maybe I'm just an idiot, but where on your UI does it show how many burning embers you have?
    Above my portrait and below EventHorizon (the red/purple/black think bar)

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 03:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dumaw View Post
    I´m having some doubts stats wise. I always played goSac and focused on mastery. I´m trying playing with fel imp now. Why do u guys say to go haste now? What about all those bonus that mastery still give to our main spells?

    I´m a destro PvP lock btw
    If you're pvp, PvE wisdom doesn't really hold true so I can't really help you there.

  18. #58
    [/QUOTE] If you're pvp, PvE wisdom doesn't really hold true so I can't really help you there. [/QUOTE]

    im PVE and i wrote up my issue, pls help me Brusalk ^^

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Druzader View Post
    finally what i have been looking for these past days. been playing my lock and knowing that its broken since i could not find any valuable source to reforge based on 5.2 changes

    so thank you Brusalk and the rest of the ppl that pinched in to give their own experience.

    unfortunately, since destro output became after this patch at the bottom of the lock specialization, its been hard to find ppl with good guides such as this and simcraft and whatnot interested in us, the dying warlock breed!!! but as i always believed, its not the spec but the enjoyment on the way to play that makes a class fun or not. add to that the green fire (hopefully will get it soon) and i find myself sticking to destro even more.

    anyways, to my issue, and since i hate/fail at math and numbers, i cant seem to work myself well on simcraft as you guys do so im turning my issue to you if u could help.

    488 ilevel destro lock with GoSUP (observer).

    and my question is, after reaching the 5100 hit, shall i stick on gettin 4717 haste then crit mastery? in other words should desto locks in 5.2 at my ilevel get to the haste threshold of 4717? and if yes, on wowreforge.com, what r the weights i need to put in to get my optimal performance.

    i thank you a lot for reading/replying to me and keep up the good work,

    cheers

    PS: i wish Evrelia does a destruction video guide as he always does for affliction
    there is no haste threshold of 4717 for destro in 5.0,5.1, or 5.2

  20. #60
    If you're pvp, PvE wisdom doesn't really hold true so I can't really help you there. [/QUOTE]

    im PVE and i wrote up my issue, pls help me Brusalk ^^[/QUOTE]

    Secondary Stats are in an odd place for Destro atm. I thought it was one way, but as it turns out that may be very specific to the simc profile I used to generate the results. As of right now I can't tell you which one is better, and I probably can't until late Tuesday as I have like 15 end of term projects to turn in, so I can't get to work on analyzing the stats further until then.

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