1. #1441
    But again, sac is perfectly viable on way more fights than just Primordius; and the rule of not doing irrelevant damage is still not contingent on that, it's just a general rule. Here's a list of what I do with sac, in my current progression:

    Jin'rokh: nothing, GoSup for this fight
    Horridon: LOTS of opportunities to RoF on adds (+boss) for extra embers, FnB for AoE on adds, Havocleave with SB/CB onto Horridon/relevant adds, leech embers with SB from adds
    Council: lots of opportunities to Havocleave (either CBs or Immo/Inci/Conf for more embers), leech embers with SB (on Loa Spirits)
    Tortos: FnB AoE on bats, Havocleave with SB to Tortos from bats/turtles, RoF on bats/turtles for lots and lots of embers
    Megaera: RoF both heads for more embers, Havocleave Immo/Inci/Conf for more embers
    Ji-Kun: pool embers for Primal Nutriment, Havocleave Hatchlings with SB/CB - not too big of an advantage, though, especially if you're not on nests
    Durumu: GoSup normal, GoSac for heroic (RoF/Havocleave on ice walls)
    Primordius: THE GoSac fight, infinite embers and pew pew pew
    Animus: depends on strategy; single target damage on Animus is important, but if you have trouble with the "trash" phase you can Havocleave/RoF at several points; probably too variable for a blanket assessment
    Iron Qon: GoSup normal; potentially GoSac for heroic due to Havocleaving when all mounts are up, though I have not tested this yet and might be wrong
    Twin Consorts: GoSup; some Havocleave during Tears of the Sun, but not enough
    Lei Shen: Havocleave with SB all through p2/3 from Ball Lightnings and random adds (these also p1), leech embers with SB from adds, FnB AoE on Ball Lightnings; can't talk about heroic, many seem to favor Demo
    Ra-Den: no info

    I find that GoSac is very viable on a lot of fights; that being said, there's also fights where GoSup is better (or going another spec altogether). Your mileage may also vary depending on what job you are assigned by your raid, what your raid composition/size is, and what fight you are progressing on currently. Always put the needs of the guild above your personal numbers!

  2. #1442
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But again, sac is perfectly viable on way more fights than just Primordius; and the rule of not doing irrelevant damage is still not contingent on that, it's just a general rule. Here's a list of what I do with sac, in my current progression:

    Jin'rokh: nothing, GoSup for this fight
    Destro is my OS, but I've done a ton more damage as Sac than as Sup on this. Save my embers and Dark Soul for the pool buff, watch dps skyrocket.

    Just my personal experience, but I was under the impression this is what one is "supposed" to do for Jin'rokh, for those massive Chaos Bolts and Shadowburns.

  3. #1443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetamìne View Post
    Hello guys, a few days ago I posted on the forum to get clarification on Destruction Warlock.
    I'm trying to increase as best as possible my DPS.
    From what I understand, at the time, the best stat is Mastery, since the majority of the fight on ToT generates many embers.
    So I'm looking for the items that have stats like Mastery / Haste.
    is that right? Or do you think it is better to look for items with mastery / crit?

    This is my character EU: Amphetamìne

    Thanks in advance. Thanks to your suggestions I have greatly increased my DPS.
    Guys please reply! Thanks! :P

  4. #1444
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Destro is my OS, but I've done a ton more damage as Sac than as Sup on this. Save my embers and Dark Soul for the pool buff, watch dps skyrocket.

    Just my personal experience, but I was under the impression this is what one is "supposed" to do for Jin'rokh, for those massive Chaos Bolts and Shadowburns.
    Keep in mind that your pet also benefits from pool damage, likely longer than you because you have to move for Ionization/Focused Lightning. You're still pooling embers, so it's all about the sac-% bonus vs. pet damage, and I'd wager that the pet wins in this scenario. It's also what I've heard from other people, but as always, you are right in questioning these assertions. It may very well be that I am mistaken, but so far I've both made the personal experience of GoSup being better and had it corroborated by other people. Keep in mind that personal experiences may be influenced by personal factors as well (raid composition, play style, current gear) and are not necessarily representative of a general tendency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetamìne View Post
    Guys please reply! Thanks! :P
    I would suggest you read the OP and the last few pages of the discussion first. Most if not all of your questions are covered there, with detailed explanations.

  5. #1445
    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetamìne View Post
    Guys please reply! Thanks! :P
    In almost every case the best item for you is going to be the one with the highest ilevel. It's rare to be able to choose between perfect 2ndary stats.

  6. #1446
    Quote Originally Posted by Gremory1 View Post
    In almost every case the best item for you is going to be the one with the highest ilevel. It's rare to be able to choose between perfect 2ndary stats.
    This is pretty much the case with secondary stats shifting depending on fight type.

  7. #1447
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    Keep in mind that personal experiences may be influenced by personal factors as well (raid composition, play style, current gear) and are not necessarily representative of a general tendency.
    Oh, absolutely. I made sure to include "just my personal experience" in my post.

    My reasoning is that Dark Soul disproportionately affects Chaos Bolt compared to pet damage, when combined with the pool buff. The bonus for having a pet is spread out over the entire fight, pool buff or no pool buff. Ember-spenders, however, can be concentrated while you have the pool buff -- and amplified with potions, Dark Soul, Bloodwarp / Timelust.

    And it's impossible to account for all the variables, but I absolutely destroyed my Sup damage as Sac. Wasn't even close, well outside of RNG on crits / procs / Focused Lightning movement. But, yes, this might have a lot to do with my gemming/reforging (as Afflic is my MS, I go haste until 6637 then full mastery [I'm waiting to go full haste until I have a 2nd rppm trink and/or a helm to put my legendary gem in]), since I'm not really up-to-date on Destro stats (although just off the top of my head, I think most fights in ToT favor mastery since RoF cleaves for massive ember generation and Shadowburn cleaves are so easy to come by ... ?)

    But, yeah ... discussion is good

  8. #1448
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    I'd thought about that solution but that would be a huge buff to our AoE, and more specifically how many targets we are good at AoE at. Limiting the solution to a replacement spell for ST RoF means they don't have to do a huge rebalance of all of our abilities.
    Seeing as we're usually at 4 embers when AoEing, it's not really a buff. Our AoE (as you know) is feast or famine. The 4 ember cap would solve the problem.

  9. #1449
    Quote Originally Posted by jason1975 View Post
    Seeing as we're usually at 4 embers when AoEing, it's not really a buff. Our AoE (as you know) is feast or famine. The 4 ember cap would solve the problem.
    I was referring mostly to how it would reduce the number of targets for us to "feast". As much as I'd love to be a spec that is good at absolutely everything, we do need to be bad at something otherwise we'll be mediocre at everything. If we're good at everything (Single target, 2-cleave, >=3 AoE) then we have to be mediocre at all of it in order for us to be balanced against other classes/specs.

    I'd much rather be exceptional at 2-cleave and >= 5 AoE, and mediocre or bad at single target or <5 and >2 AoE.

  10. #1450

    Destruction Warlock stats (for the milionth time!)

    Hello guys,

    I'm a long time reader of these forums and ever since 5.2 hit live servers I was pondering about what stats to go for.

    I know the usual answer to this question is to run simcraft of my character, but I don't really trust simcraft. Firstly, there's almost no scenario in real raiding where you are doing pure patchwerk style and secondly I heard that the model tends to undervaluate mastery for destro.

    Anyway, I'm quite confused about what should I reforge - I'm torn between mastery and haste, I know mastery does great in AoE situations while haste is mainly for single target DPS (which as I said are quite rare). I should also note that I'm currently wearing two RPPM trinkets as I understood its proc rates are also improved with haste.

    I tried to find help by looking at other warlocks masteries (notably Zumzum and Brusalk) but while Zumzum goes nuts with mastery, Brusalk seems to aim for a more balanced setup. The question I ponder is why is that? Can Zumzum go full mastery and still do great numbers on all fight because he's part of a 25man guild and therefore there might be more opportunities to generate embers (more adds to hit and so on) or is it just a matter of preference and the differences between the stats are not that important?

    Personally, I'm leaning towards the crazy mastery build, but I'm not sure it is a viable gearing strategy as I'm raiding with 10 man group and Zumzum's results might be an exception that confirms the rule.

    Currently, I'm gemmed and partly reforged for haste/mastery, I tried some experimenting on tonight's progress of HC Twins

    Anyway, any tips, insights and other ideas are very welcome and I'd be very happy if either Brusalk or Zumzum actually provided an insight into their thinking proces when gemming and reforging.

    Thanks guys.

  11. #1451
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivio View Post
    Hello guys,

    I'm a long time reader of these forums and ever since 5.2 hit live servers I was pondering about what stats to go for.

    I know the usual answer to this question is to run simcraft of my character, but I don't really trust simcraft. Firstly, there's almost no scenario in real raiding where you are doing pure patchwerk style and secondly I heard that the model tends to undervaluate mastery for destro.

    Anyway, I'm quite confused about what should I reforge - I'm torn between mastery and haste, I know mastery does great in AoE situations while haste is mainly for single target DPS (which as I said are quite rare). I should also note that I'm currently wearing two RPPM trinkets as I understood its proc rates are also improved with haste.

    I tried to find help by looking at other warlocks masteries (notably Zumzum and Brusalk) but while Zumzum goes nuts with mastery, Brusalk seems to aim for a more balanced setup. The question I ponder is why is that? Can Zumzum go full mastery and still do great numbers on all fight because he's part of a 25man guild and therefore there might be more opportunities to generate embers (more adds to hit and so on) or is it just a matter of preference and the differences between the stats are not that important?

    Personally, I'm leaning towards the crazy mastery build, but I'm not sure it is a viable gearing strategy as I'm raiding with 10 man group and Zumzum's results might be an exception that confirms the rule.

    Currently, I'm gemmed and partly reforged for haste/mastery, I tried some experimenting on tonight's progress of HC Twins

    Anyway, any tips, insights and other ideas are very welcome and I'd be very happy if either Brusalk or Zumzum actually provided an insight into their thinking proces when gemming and reforging.

    Thanks guys.
    Glad you were able to get your post back. Sadly this is probably best posted/merged with the sticky up top (unless a mod finds value in this being in a separate topic)

    OT:

    I would probably stack mastery in general even on 10. It's probably true that there's less ember generation in 10 vs 25 which makes Mastery a bit less valuable (but not much!).

    The reason why I'm more balanced between them is mainly because we happened to have a few Heroic Thunderforged pieces drop that no one wanted so I took em. The stats switch so much on fight type/talents that I've pretty much decided to get my hands on the highest ilevel pieces I can.

  12. #1452
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Glad you were able to get your post back. Sadly this is probably best posted/merged with the sticky up top (unless a mod finds value in this being in a separate topic)
    Nope I don't think this is worth it's own topic. Any answer that might be concluded here or discussion that is had would be beneficial to all the Destro locks. I like keeping the discussion in 1 place so people that are interested in Destro only have 1 topic to follow and keep up with, not an entire forum full of different threads.
    Your soul shall be mine! ||| Forum rules ||| New England Patriots

  13. #1453
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    But again, sac is perfectly viable on way more fights than just Primordius; and the rule of not doing irrelevant damage is still not contingent on that, it's just a general rule. Here's a list of what I do with sac, in my current progression
    many of the things you bring up have nothing to do with gosac. RoF and FnB are not affected by it. so basically any fight with many targets where you are spamming a lot of FnB, shouldn't gosup pull ahead? and gosac becoming a stronger option whenever you can hit RoF on a lot of targets and use CB/SB as your main "fillers". primordius obviously being a prime example of a gosac fight and horridon/tortos being more of a personal/strategy choice.

  14. #1454
    OK, so, I just got UVLS lfr version (you can read the hijinks of my dummy tests in the afflic thread), and after doing some searching I haven't been able to find an answer to a question I have...

    I know the optimal use for UVLS as Destro is to immolate/fel flame then RoF, rather than on trying to get a Chaos Bolt out of it ... however, what I was looking for but unable to find is: just how much does UVLS affect Chaos Bolt ?

    I know that crit above 100% is wonky ... so,yeah, I dunno. Taking off Wush, weapon and cloak (jade spirit / lightweave) leaves me below even hitcap for the level 90 dummy, and I haven't made my way out to a lower-level dummy yet, so I thought I'd ask here in case any of y'all had any info ...

    I figure this info might be useful somewhere. Like if a fight has temp damage modifiers, like the pool on Jin'rokh, if a Chaos Bolt might be better than a full-crit Immo.

  15. #1455
    As I understand it the relationship between UVLS proc and auto crit spells is it buffs them by the amount of bonus crit you would have below the 100% "cap". IE if you have 20% crit base and get a UVLS chaosbolt off it gains 80% wheras if you got a darksoul UVLS chaosbolt off it would only buff 50%. Same deal for soulfire... This makes UVLS better as a ember generator than an ember spender buff. Thus why destro uses it on immo/FF/RoF to get lots of embers so it can CB/SBurn more.

    TLDR it will buff CB but not as much as most people think.

  16. #1456
    You have to be aware of a few things, when using the UVLS as destro:
    • Chaos Bolt damage is calculated, when the cast is finished, but it cannot get any benefit from crit above 100%. (because you cannot have an event with a probaility above p=1)
      Basically the damage itself is calculated by
      Thus the UVLS procc increases the Chaos bolt damage by:
      (As always, no guarantee for correctness of my math)
    • You need to be aware of the fact, that the trinket has only a 4 seconds procc. Now factor in latency and human reaction time, and the timeframe to push out a Chaos Bolt is very short. (especially, when using a low Haste, high Mastey build)
    • Incinerate generates emberbits with each crit tick.
      In most cases it is more benificial to apply than to cast a Chaos bolt, because of shorter cast time and more embers generated. (This implies the fact, that you do not overcap embers)
      Also be aware of haste proccs, as they can modify greatly the Immolate ticks. But in most cases the 100% crit Immolate is more benificial than a faster ticking Immolate.
    • Fel Flame recalculates the damage of Immolate upon Impact. There are some times, when a Fel flame was cast in the last moment of the procc, but upon impact the procc wasn't active anymore. Therefore the 100% crit Immolate is lost.
    • Rain of Fire updates dynamically with your stats. Therefore there is absolutely no need to cast a Rain of Fire at the end of the trinket proc. the cast would not receive the full benifit. (If you have the Int stacking trinket from the third boss, you can try casting Rain of Fire on a target dummy to see this effect.)

    I hope those few thoughts might help you a little bit.


    edit: As I saw the post above, that was written, while I did this, be aware, when using percentages.
    Last edited by Killem; 2013-05-15 at 10:58 AM.

  17. #1457
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    A good option is to finish your current cast, then FF into FF into Conflag (if available). 6 direct emberbits + up to 8 (?) more emberbits with a full crit Immolate.
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  18. #1458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    many of the things you bring up have nothing to do with gosac. RoF and FnB are not affected by it. so basically any fight with many targets where you are spamming a lot of FnB, shouldn't gosup pull ahead?
    If you REALLY wanna get into it, Shivarra pulls ahead, as long as you don't piss everyone off too much knocking adds back. 3+ targets = win.
    After being Medieve the Uberpally for many years, finally shelved in favor of Belledanna, the Uberlock!!! (patent pending)
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  19. #1459
    haha, that brings a lot of micromanagement though. I feel it's already rather hectic during periods when there's a lot of add cleaving with FnB. especially utilizing havoc/SB to its fullest. if you don't just put the shivarra on assist, but I highly doubt that is worth it.

    also, have you compared that to sac whiplash?

  20. #1460
    The Patient
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    I have not, mostly because it's a pain in the nuts to get 3 target dummys together.
    After being Medieve the Uberpally for many years, finally shelved in favor of Belledanna, the Uberlock!!! (patent pending)
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