1. #1561
    So I have 4 set full normal (helm is 2/2 upgraded) and I had the opportunity to take Hood of the Crimson Wake (Dark Animus' helm) which I'm pretty sure is my BiS. I am currently using a TF Ji-kun chest as my offpiece and cannot get chest token to regain 4 set. Should I have taken the hood? I passed to another warlock who was being carried for our farm fights.

  2. #1562
    Pretty sure that you only break 4pc if you can get the off-pieces as TF. So unless the helm was TF, you didn't really need it, and even then you'd probably only use it if you had the other off-pieces you need in TF as well.

  3. #1563
    I think the best possible itemisation is going something like, Gloves+chest as tier, legs from jin'rohk, shoulders from durumu and head from dark animus since in most fights you're embercapped almost constantly and mastery comes far ahead so you want to max out that stat. or that's how i have been going. The 4 set bonus is quite awfull for destro so to speak.
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  4. #1564
    sadly that would also more or less force you into being destro permanently, since you'll be badly geared for afflic, and sorta crappy geared for demo(need atleast haste enough for the 8097 haste breakpoint, so cant stack mastery too much), but i do agree our setbonuses are quite awful all around, only the 2pc seem mandatory in general.

  5. #1565
    That might be to true to until certain itemlevels, since there is only a few fights where affliction might be abit better or one is needed on affli. Like on our 25man raiding team i need to be affli only on tortos to slow turtles and then i can be destro on rest fights. Well i was for few resets affli also on primordius to kill adds with our tactic. But with higher gear levels you can easily just reforge to 9778haste which was the agony tick and keep rest as mastery. And before that 6637 should be enough when needed to be temporarily on affliction. Dunno about demo hastecaps so can't say anything to that matter.
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  6. #1566
    I'm not sure if this question has been asked/answered, but there is alot of post to read though and not enough time in the day to go through them all.... So real quick: Once you have 4 piece, is it better to use Glyph of Sac. and stack Mastery?

  7. #1567
    Quote Originally Posted by Serrafin View Post
    I'm not sure if this question has been asked/answered, but there is alot of post to read though and not enough time in the day to go through them all.... So real quick: Once you have 4 piece, is it better to use Glyph of Sac. and stack Mastery?
    1) Most people only use 2 piece and get TF off pieces.
    2) Sac is best when used on fights where > 50% of your dmg comes from Chaos Bolts and Shadowburns (pretty sure thats the rule of thumb I have seen quoted)
    3) Haste + GoSup is best single target (up to something stupid like 20k haste). Mastery is only better once you throw adds into the mix.

  8. #1568
    How're peeps handling the spec with the meta gem? I feel like I'm dipping into GCD hell with 5705 haste alone. Sims loves exclaiming haste >> all so can't seem to take that for anything of value. Granted I also only have the VP trinket and Lei Shen TF trinket at this point (wru trinket drops?!), so that VP trinket may be the issue.

  9. #1569
    I have tried to keep haste at max 5000 rating since after that it becomes annoying with incinerates cast times, otherwise it's decent so far....dunno with high haste amounts that how painfull or good it can be. going with stats like ;hitcap>mastery>haste(up to 5k)>rest to crit. Specially now when i got the 600ilv cloak all the ratings are quite high anyways. The metagem is nice on aoe fights like Durumu hc where you can spam inci's to the icewalls :P
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  10. #1570
    Quote Originally Posted by Moggie View Post
    How're peeps handling the spec with the meta gem? I feel like I'm dipping into GCD hell with 5705 haste alone. Sims loves exclaiming haste >> all so can't seem to take that for anything of value. Granted I also only have the VP trinket and Lei Shen TF trinket at this point (wru trinket drops?!), so that VP trinket may be the issue.
    Why do people feel like haste can't possibly be good past the point where Incinerate (of all things) goes under the GCD?

    Haste still benefits (but not limited to):
    Rain of Fire
    Chaos Bolt
    Immolate
    Pet energy regen
    Pet attack speed
    RPPM

    Not to mention that the only time you ever really drop below 1 sec Incinerate cast times is during temporary haste buffs. The rest of the time Haste is still beneficial for everything.


    My research into Haste for single target leads me to believe that with 2 RPPM trinkets Haste is the most valuable all the way up to 20k haste rating and above.

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 03:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by richardi View Post
    I have tried to keep haste at max 5000 rating since after that it becomes annoying with incinerates cast times, otherwise it's decent so far....dunno with high haste amounts that how painfull or good it can be. going with stats like ;hitcap>mastery>haste(up to 5k)>rest to crit. Specially now when i got the 600ilv cloak all the ratings are quite high anyways. The metagem is nice on aoe fights like Durumu hc where you can spam inci's to the icewalls :P
    You'll do more wall damage by multidotting walls with FnB-Immo + RoFs, unless your walls die within 10 seconds like ours did last kill because picked up an Ele Shaman.

  11. #1571
    I've mused that even getting Incin below gcd with those temp buffs you can just use your Backdraft charges on Chaos Bolts ... and I think an extremely aware and reactive player will certainly be able to make the most of it, but for scrubs like me it's probably, in real terms, better to not get into those situations. All jokes aside I could probably figure out how to do it but it does seem a bit daunting and might not be worth the payoff, particularly as so many fights in ToT benefit from mastery for Destro (if you're not min/max-ing and reforging for every single fight, and are just going for a "most cases" build).

    I understand all the specs have specific situations that require such dynamic play changes, but I don't think any are as fundamentally altering as for Destro when Incin goes under gcd ... other specs it's more about changing timing of resource use, rather than altering how those resources are used. Not super ultra incredibly different, but the more levels of "if/then" there are, the more difficult it is to maximize efficiency with real human reaction.

    I'm sure addons and what not can make it extremely easier to handle (weak/power-auras, tell me when, etc) knowing when you should not Backdraft your incinerates, but there is still the complexity of "I've already Conflag'd and now my haste procs have come up, but I have no int procs" ... maybe I'm putting too much focus on hypothetical scenarios that surely do have some kind of answer than can be figured out (depending on other variables, it's really only a matter of "keep incinerating" or "chaos bolt until haste drops back down").

    Short version: It's an additional layer of complexity that some but not all will be able to handle efficiently.

  12. #1572
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Why do people feel like haste can't possibly be good past the point where Incinerate (of all things) goes under the GCD?

    Haste still benefits (but not limited to):
    Rain of Fire
    Chaos Bolt
    Immolate
    Pet energy regen
    Pet attack speed
    RPPM

    Not to mention that the only time you ever really drop below 1 sec Incinerate cast times is during temporary haste buffs. The rest of the time Haste is still beneficial for everything.


    My research into Haste for single target leads me to believe that with 2 RPPM trinkets Haste is the most valuable all the way up to 20k haste rating and above.[COLOR="red"]

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 03:28 PM ----------
    Um... All I asked was how're people handling the spec with the meta gem, not once did I declare that haste isn't good or w/e you went off about. And like I said, the issue I'm having may stem from the VP trinket giving 9700'ish haste + 30% meta gem. That's it!

  13. #1573
    Quote Originally Posted by Moggie View Post
    Um... All I asked was how're people handling the spec with the meta gem, not once did I declare that haste isn't good or w/e you went off about. And like I said, the issue I'm having may stem from the VP trinket giving 9700'ish haste + 30% meta gem. That's it!
    Sims loves exclaiming haste >> all so can't seem to take that for anything of value.
    I may have interpreted what you were saying incorrectly, but that to me implies that you don't agree with the sims results that Haste is king for single target.

    It was also in response to the next post after yours which explicitly referred to the same situations.


    Also, many of my posts (while I quote one person in particular) may be directed in a more general sense to answer questions/misconceptions that I see in a general sense.


    I apologize if I offended, but I didn't want that misconception to continue to be repeated over and over again.

  14. #1574
    Dreadlord Cebel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    I may have interpreted what you were saying incorrectly, but that to me implies that you don't agree with the sims results that Haste is king for single target.

    It was also in response to the next post after yours which explicitly referred to the same situations.


    Also, many of my posts (while I quote one person in particular) may be directed in a more general sense to answer questions/misconceptions that I see in a general sense.


    I apologize if I offended, but I didn't want that misconception to continue to be repeated over and over again.
    Dont be offended, hes simply referring to a discussion thats been taking place in the affliction thread ( originally posted by sparkuggz ), which talks about how haste is overvalued by simcraft, due to the fact that it is doing its calculations over 10,000 or more itterations of a fight, while in the real world we will never ever get close to that many kills, or even attempts on a boss. The reason for haste being so overvalued by simcraft is due to the RPPM trinkets/meta, however the difference in proc chance for a warlock at say 16000 haste, and 10,000 haste, is approximately .5% more. Current believe is, is to go for the highest breakpoint you can reach ( at least for affliction ), and then going for as much mastery as you can. For the most part this will be 9778 haste as affliction, and 8100 haste for demonology.

  15. #1575
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    Quote Originally Posted by pixul View Post
    Dont be offended, hes simply referring to a discussion thats been taking place in the affliction thread ( originally posted by sparkuggz ), which talks about how haste is overvalued by simcraft, due to the fact that it is doing its calculations over 10,000 or more itterations of a fight, while in the real world we will never ever get close to that many kills, or even attempts on a boss. The reason for haste being so overvalued by simcraft is due to the RPPM trinkets/meta, however the difference in proc chance for a warlock at say 16000 haste, and 10,000 haste, is approximately .5% more. Current believe is, is to go for the highest breakpoint you can reach ( at least for affliction ), and then going for as much mastery as you can. For the most part this will be 9778 haste as affliction, and 8100 haste for demonology.
    I don't get very well the state of going for the highest Breakpoint at affliction, because with constant 30% Haste buff with LMG or Dark Soul, there are so many breakpoints to reach, so looks like it's easier to full stack haste, because almost every new item you will reach a new breakpoint with LMG + Raid Buff, or LMG+DS+Raid buff or Bloodlust+LMG+Dark Soul+Raid buff.

    Probably I overestimate the power of haste and the RPPM.

  16. #1576
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    So if i were to go full haste. Wouldnt it lower the damage from my chaos bolts, shadowburn, and other casts due to the lack of mastery? How do you decide where to break off form mastery? Simcraft isnt very good for me since it always states crit being my top secondary. Any advice would be appreciated!

  17. #1577
    Quote Originally Posted by xuros View Post
    So if i were to go full haste. Wouldnt it lower the damage from my chaos bolts, shadowburn, and other casts due to the lack of mastery? How do you decide where to break off form mastery? Simcraft isnt very good for me since it always states crit being my top secondary. Any advice would be appreciated!
    If it's stating crit as your top secondary, then it probably is (for single target).

    Haste increases the number of times you can cast a ember generator in a set period of time, which thusly increases the total number of ember consumer casts you get off. For single target this increase in total number of casts provides more damage than mastery.

    Similarly, crit increases the number of embers you get per cast of an ember generator. This has the same effect of increasing the total number of ember consumer casts you get off.


    As your damage shifts from consumers towards generators as you gain embers through means other than the generators (Through shadowburn returns or RoF hitting multiple targets), mastery's value increases as you're benefiting those consumers.

  18. #1578
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    If it's stating crit as your top secondary, then it probably is (for single target).

    Haste increases the number of times you can cast a ember generator in a set period of time, which thusly increases the total number of ember consumer casts you get off. For single target this increase in total number of casts provides more damage than mastery.

    Similarly, crit increases the number of embers you get per cast of an ember generator. This has the same effect of increasing the total number of ember consumer casts you get off.


    As your damage shifts from consumers towards generators as you gain embers through means other than the generators (Through shadowburn returns or RoF hitting multiple targets), mastery's value increases as you're benefiting those consumers.
    Yeah i understand how the stats work. No way i need crit as i swim in embers as is on most fights in ToT. Just trying to decide a cut off on mastery before switching to haste. Right now im 15% or so haste unbuffed and just short of 16% haste, 69% mastery, and 15% crit. I put out good numbers on our run. Me bieng ilvl 520 and much lower than the rest of my raid group and i still fight for the top of the meters with them. Now i find myself unsatisfied with not topping at all times and looking for new avenues to increase dps.

  19. #1579
    Quote Originally Posted by xuros View Post
    Yeah i understand how the stats work. No way i need crit as i swim in embers as is on most fights in ToT. Just trying to decide a cut off on mastery before switching to haste. Right now im 15% or so haste unbuffed and just short of 16% haste, 69% mastery, and 15% crit. I put out good numbers on our run. Me bieng ilvl 520 and much lower than the rest of my raid group and i still fight for the top of the meters with them. Now i find myself unsatisfied with not topping at all times and looking for new avenues to increase dps.
    Well, there is a huge difference between academically considering stats for theoretical single target, and actual encounters.

    Avoiding crit because you "swim in embers as in on most fights in ToT" isn't a good enough reason to avoid crit for single target. Are you unable to spend your embers quick enough so you are capping on single target fights? Are you using backdraft on Chaos Bolts to avoid capping? I highly doubt that that is the case.


    Now, in multi-target fights you're quickly getting out of the range of usefulness of Simcraft. Mastery quickly becomes the best stat once you're past 3-4 targets for the whole fight. Obviously, if you're lacking single target damage for a fight but have enough AoE then you'd help the raid most by going for single target damage.



    In general for Destruction there's no "I have x amount of haste, so now I want all crit" or, "I have this amount of crit, now I need to stack another stat". It's pretty much just stack the stat you need the most of for a fight's mechanics. Need ice wall damage on HC Durumu and boss damage isn't a problem? Stack mastery. Need boss damage on HC Durumu and ice walls aren't a problem? Stack haste or crit.



    That was a bit rambling, but if you are just going to discount Simcraft results as faulty because they don't agree with what you thought was going to be the result, why even use Simcraft?

  20. #1580
    I don't usually play destro, but my guild's next boss will be primordius hc. I understand that going with GoSac and mannoroth's fury and keep RoF everywhere to kill the adds is the way to go for warlocks on this fight, or so my guild wants me to go. The gearing strat for that specific fight is simply mastery > crit > haste? Any tips you could be so kind to share?

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