1. #2201
    There is no haste cap on RoF. The dots will just tick faster and faster.

    There is a haste cap on other spells, like Incinerate. Can't cast faster then the GCD.

    Some spells, haste does nothing for. Shadowburn, for example. Which you will use a whole lot more if there are multiple adds. So haste doesn't help

  2. #2202
    Quote Originally Posted by theshiningnova View Post
    Can someone please quantify some of the statements?

    "You're getting Haste as being good because it's using RoF which is what gives Haste value"
    Why? How does haste benefit RoF any more than other spells? On single target, RoF still does more DPCT than incinerate when immolate is on, does comparable ember gen so if you have plenty of mana in reserve, why not?

    Ppl also say haste drops off in value the more targets there are. Why?
    Haste reduces the duration of RoF which means you get more embers in less time. The amount of embers and damage you get from more haste is largely due to RoF having a lesser channel time. The amount of damage and ember generation you gain from straight casting 5.4 style is less than in 5.3-style where RoF gave Haste a lot of value.

    When running a low haste build (as is ideal) you won't have any mana in reserve to use on RoF unless it's unavoidable movement where RoF is better than Fel Flame. In my testing with a super-low Haste build, I found that the DPCT of RoF was about the same as Incinerate.


    Haste drops off in value the more targets there are, not because it's losing value, but because it's not gaining in value anywhere near as quickly as Crit, and especially Mastery does. It's a relative drop-off and not an absolute one.

  3. #2203

    How is burning primal better than sinister primal?

    Am I missing something?
    I have seen several people post that the burning primal is better than sinister primal for destruction.
    How is this possible?

    Moved your thread to the Destruction sticky. Next time please use this thread if your question is strictly Destruction related. :-)

    - Alarinth
    Last edited by Alarinth; 2013-09-24 at 09:08 PM.

  4. #2204
    High Overlord TheBGreene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grilelan View Post
    Am I missing something?
    I have seen several people post that the burning primal is better than sinister primal for destruction.
    How is this possible?
    The haste proc is garbage for Destro, haste is the last prioritized stat for destro. Static Int with a crit mutiplier is very good for destro...3% increased crit damage, your cb always crits so you get an extra 3% on each one iirc.

    That is why it is much better.
    Last edited by TheBGreene; 2013-09-24 at 06:56 PM.

  5. #2205
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    Haste is fucking terrible in terms of destro oh and the crit multiple? That shit goes with Chaos bolt which is one of your prime sources of damage lol

  6. #2206
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    There is no haste cap on RoF. The dots will just tick faster and faster.

    There is a haste cap on other spells, like Incinerate. Can't cast faster then the GCD.

    Some spells, haste does nothing for. Shadowburn, for example. Which you will use a whole lot more if there are multiple adds. So haste doesn't help
    Thanks for the answers. however, as I understand it. Haste will not change the DPCT once it reduces your GCD down to 1 second. Surely RoF will tick faster and give you the ember faster but it'll still take 1 second of cast time and you are not likely going to have enough mana to keep RoF spamming to realize the benefit from the faster RoF ticks(As in you are limited by your mana on how much dmg you can do and how much ember you get out of it). As such, I don't see how haste will benefit RoF more than any other spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk
    Haste drops off in value the more targets there are, not because it's losing value, but because it's not gaining in value anywhere near as quickly as Crit, and especially Mastery does. It's a relative drop-off and not an absolute one.
    I think that's exactly what I'm trying to understand. Why is mastery and crit gaining more in value compared to haste. Is there an explanation behind the numbers that you might have?

  7. #2207
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    Quote Originally Posted by theshiningnova View Post
    I think that's exactly what I'm trying to understand. Why is mastery and crit gaining more in value compared to haste. Is there an explanation behind the numbers that you might have?
    Your AoE damage comes from immolate, incinerate, conflag modified by fnb and rain of fire.
    Incinerate will profit from haste until a very very low amount of haste, you'll easily hit the gcd. After that point only rain of fire will profit from more haste.
    Whereas fnb benefits from more mastery. The more mastery the more you'll gain in %, for instance I have 15xxx mastery which results in a fnb modifier of 70.xx% on the other hand with about 8xxx mastery = 57.xx%

    And crit just gives you more sustainability in aoe situations due to a higher ember reg.

    hope i could help you.

    ---- update ----
    whuups thought you were talking about aoe situations, my bad.

  8. #2208
    Quote Originally Posted by theshiningnova View Post
    Thanks for the answers. however, as I understand it. Haste will not change the DPCT once it reduces your GCD down to 1 second. Surely RoF will tick faster and give you the ember faster but it'll still take 1 second of cast time and you are not likely going to have enough mana to keep RoF spamming to realize the benefit from the faster RoF ticks(As in you are limited by your mana on how much dmg you can do and how much ember you get out of it). As such, I don't see how haste will benefit RoF more than any other spells.



    I think that's exactly what I'm trying to understand. Why is mastery and crit gaining more in value compared to haste. Is there an explanation behind the numbers that you might have?
    It's just a difference in the damage you gain per stat point.

    Mastery increases our ember consuming spells by a certain percentage, as well as all of our abilities by a separate, certain percentage. It also correspondingly increases the effectiveness of our FnB'd spells by benefit of FnB consuming embers. In that respect FnB "double dips" in benefit from Mastery. (To borrow a term used a lot around here)

    Crit allows us to generate more embers per cast, similarly to how Haste lets us gain embers faster by casting quicker. The difference is that with our AoE being limited by Embers and not how fast we can cast them, Crit lets us AoE on less numbers of mobs, as each cast will gain more embers back than if you had less crit.

    Meanwhile Haste is sitting by the sideline where it lets us cast spells faster. For single target this is a boon as it means more Embers, and thus more ember consuming spells. On AoE, this isn't as much of a concern as per-cast damage is more important as every spell is now effectively an Ember Consumer.


    Going back to the RoF discussion, Haste benefits spells equally (as in more haste means more casts per unit time). However, Haste has no benefit once it can no longer make a spell do more stuff per unit time. For Destruction, this point is really, really low due to Backdraft and our low base cast time filler of Incinerate. Event a few thousand Haste rating can get us to the point of GCD capping on Incinerates with Backdraft or other Haste from other sources.

    DoTs and Channels intrinsically have a much longer period of time from which they can benefit from Haste. In the case of most DoTs and Channels this is effectively an infinite amount of Haste as they will increase in duration after a certain amount of Haste means that they can get an extra tick in while under their base duration. (This is referred to as a Haste breakpoint, or in other words the point at which you get enough Haste to increase the duration of a DoT back up to it's maximum. This breakpoint usually is worth more damage per rating as you approach it as (in general) it will let you get more casts in between refreshing, meaning less GCDs spent keeping 100% uptime on the DoT.) RoF is an exception in being a channelled AoE. Normally it'd function like a DoT, and in most respect it does. However, it can not hit a breakpoint where it gains duration, so it just goes lower and lower in duration.

    Anyway, as RoF requires a large amount of Haste to even be anywhere near GCD capping, while providing the same damage as an Incinerate and used to provide more Embers per Cast, it effectively "gave" Haste a lot of value as it gave us a spell in our core rotation which benefited from Haste to effectively no limit. The more Haste you had, the more RoFs you cast, and it somewhat fed off of itself.

    Fast forward to 5.4 where RoF generates the same embers as an Incinerate (usually), roughly the same damage as a Fel Flame, but costs a ton more mana than an Incinerate. Now this spell is not in our rotation, leaving only two spells for us to cast that Haste has benefit for past the point where it no longer benefits Incinerate (our main filler); Chaos Bolt, and Immolate. Immolate is a low-power DoT and is largely inconsequential except for it's ember generation properties. Haste isn't as effective for Immolate simply because Immolate isn't worth enough. Chaos Bolt is a cast which is limited by it's cost. Getting more Haste doesn't mean more casts per minute (except that more Haste means more ember generation which means more Chaos Bolts, but that's not what I'm referring to.).

    In 5.4, with RoF gone, we don't benefit from Haste as much as we used to because the core component of our rotation which Haste benefited is no longer routinely used.

    All of that together is what people mean (and I mean) in that RoF gives Haste value to Destruction.

    HTH

  9. #2209
    Quote Originally Posted by Akakishin View Post
    that much of mastery isn't something you avoid for all 3 specs.

    about meta gem true. it was already worthless for destru. the only reason you could want it before 5.4 was for RoF. now its nothing but loss of 3% priceless crit.
    so it's worth it to break my 2 piece for the additional mastery as destro?

  10. #2210
    Does the 30% buff to immolate, affect stat priority at all?

  11. #2211
    Quote Originally Posted by OokingDooker View Post
    Does the 30% buff to immolate, affect stat priority at all?
    From what I understood from Brusalk post above, I don't think it does. Mastery and Crit are just way better than Haste, and that wont change any time soon.

  12. #2212
    So is there no change planned for the LMG for destro? It feels like a slap in the face that my favorite spec actually gets worse using a legendary reward that benefits everyone else...

  13. #2213
    i long for the day when haste becomes valuable for destro again coz having afflic as main spec and destro as offspec(thanks for the demo nerf stupid blizz making it a nobrainer) will require some extensive reforging everytime i switch to destro to get rid of some of all my haste, blizz really need to address destro's haste scaling problems that backdraft is causing, could be easily fixed tbh if blizz would bother doing something.

  14. #2214
    Plus, look at it this way...If you are Shadowburn sniping and Havoc cleaving lot's of adds (which would probably be the case it you are going Destro) how much does haste help that?

    Not at all.

    The only time I wish I had more haste is when I can't fit that last Chaosbolt in under a proc.

  15. #2215
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    Plus, look at it this way...If you are Shadowburn sniping and Havoc cleaving lot's of adds (which would probably be the case it you are going Destro) how much does haste help that?

    Not at all.

    The only time I wish I had more haste is when I can't fit that last Chaosbolt in under a proc.
    well technically it does help as it reduces the gcd.

  16. #2216
    How much haste do you need to get SB to it's lowest GCD?

    I would assume stacking mastery/crit is better in that situation, but I haven't simmed it.

    I actually wondered if lowering Destros GCD would help with GCD capping. Would probably still need to adjust ratio of Backdrafted Incins vs. non-Backdrafted Incins.
    Last edited by Grizelda; 2013-09-24 at 10:10 PM.

  17. #2217
    afaik you need around 50% haste to get SB's gcd to 1 sec.

    IMO the main problem with destro's problem with haste scaling stems from backdraft as it makes it very easy for incinerate to get under the gcd wasting a lot of dps, which is why some ppl are advocating a glyph that would allow backdraft to give you an equivalent amount of mastery or crit instead.

  18. #2218
    Afaik Destro has a standard one second GCD through Chaotic Energy, which cannot be reduced any further.

  19. #2219
    Quote Originally Posted by luckydevours View Post
    Afaik Destro has a standard one second GCD through Chaotic Energy, which cannot be reduced any further.
    ^^ is correct

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  20. #2220
    Warchief Packers01's Avatar
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    I have been looking for a best trinkets list for dest, does anyone have a link for it?

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