1. #2341
    I thought that FnB used modified versions of your original spells, not their own brand new versions ... ?

    Tooltip for FnB does say it makes them do a certain % of normal damage ... if Sac increases the base damage, then, hrm ...

  2. #2342
    Blademaster Lethl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucidprodigy View Post
    I'm not entirely sure using Int/Mastery is the most viable option. Up until people had tier 15 gear, this was generally good advice. In short: items have larger chunks of secondary stats now, compared to what you can get on a gem. The assumption here is that you have the flexibility on your gear to reforge into those valuable secondary stats. This is often the case now with huge chunks of stats on single items – you can make up for 2 or even 3 expertise/mastery with one reforge. Correct me if I am wrong though please!
    As far as haste goes, and don't quote me on this. I've been getting great Simc numbers using 9778 haste break point without sacrificing too much mastery and it has been working out. I am not sure though if it's just my gear level and if it works better with higher gear levels or even increasing your haste break point.

    Edit: it might be because I have Purified Bindings of Immerseus.
    Well, i agree. I had the issue with beeing 14.50% hit cap, or 15.50%. Wich was way to high hit cap, or to low on hit cap. And i wanted somewhere between 14.95%-15.05%. And only way i could sort it, was using expertise/mastery gems in red socket. Tier 16 dosnt come with hit, and neither blue sockets, all is red socket, except legs, wich are both yellow. So you might want to balance them with expertise/mastery gems because of the items having such huge stats when you are reforging. But i trust brusalk when it comes to his testing. And he found it to be mastery/critical.

    About haste, ive never tested it myself, but i belive haste was so good in 5.3 was because of how ROF worked.
    But now With 5% haste buff from SP, backdraft and hero, im at 1.0 sec cast incinerate, with 2500 haste. Any more haste than that i would hit GCD cap, its just painfull to play with an incinerate at 0,6 as i had in 5.3. In the end, i just reforged out of all haste, because i hated that playstyle, spamming ROF like a mad man and those fast incinerate.

    Now I am running with gosac, wich makes haste even worse if im not completly wrong. But then again, im just running Normals, and i dont need to get that last extra dps. And i kinda like the high HP from GoSac and SL

  3. #2343
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    Whaaat
    Maybe FnB throws real Incinerates affected by GoSac, so they put an additional modifier on FnB to offset the bonus from GoSac when you have it, and they made a mistake or forgot to modify it after GoSac was nerfed.
    I don't think that's intended anyway.
    I just went on ignoring Incinerate if there wasn't a ridiculous amount of targets up on Galakras for a rank 3 lol. Destro feels so weird now that RoF ember generation is nerfed. I remember going out of FnB and casting normal Incinerates as fillers on big packs to go to my main filler -> Chaos Bolt/Shadowburn . Weird stuff but amazing results.

  4. #2344
    What stat weights are you using in AMR. Trying to get down to your haste % and having a hard time doing it. Can't post armory yet.


    Thanks.

  5. #2345
    Regarding a lot of this discussion about FNB Incinerate and all, and possibly relating to the surprising increase in Destro damage after the recent updates, I'm working on something that might explain some of it.

    It seems that normal no-sac incinerate is doing 15% more damage than we'd expect based on the formula for the spell on wowhead (spell=29722).
    And then Sacrifice incinerate is still getting the 15% from sacrifice, so it's doing about 32.25% (1.15^2) of damage based on the formula. However, I'm still a bit confused as to why this is all taken into consideration in the tooltip in game. The tooltip for regular incinerate (not FNB) seems to be correct about the actual damage it is. Things clearly get wonky when you start looking at FNB.

    I'm still trying to figure some stuff out, so I'll probably report back soon.

  6. #2346
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    So I got the cleave trinket is this thing decent for destro? Lols

  7. #2347
    The Crystal? Just be choosy on what fight you use it on. Take it right off on a single target fight.

    It can be beast and it can be as if you don't even have a second trinket in.
    Last edited by Grizelda; 2013-09-30 at 04:00 AM.

  8. #2348
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    The Crystal? Just be choosy on what fight you use it on. Take it right out on a single target fight.

    It can be beast and it can be as if you don't even have a second trinket in.
    Yep the one from Malkorok second trinket was a breathe of the hydra - Destro is my OS though so not much of a concern.

  9. #2349
    So a little bit more in the way of rudimentary conclusions.

    tldr; Incinerate damage you see ingame is inconsistent with this formula we see on Wowhead: Deals 1563 to 1727 (+ 154% of Spell power) Fire damage to an enemy. And there's a correction made for this inconsistency which makes Sac FNB do 2.25% damage less than No Sac FNB.

    Start with this: Incinerate: Deals 1563 to 1727 (+ 154% of Spell power) Fire damage to an enemy.
    This is the the formula for Incinerate on Wowhead. To make things easy, call the average value 100 (just the formula with 154% of your sp).

    Incinerate gets buffed directly by mastery, so the incinerate should hit for 100*(1+X), X being your mastery buffing incinerate.
    However, if you go do the calculations on your character right now (WITHOUT SAC) you'll see that your incinerate tooltip and actual damage is actually 100*(1+X)*1.15. There's an extra 15% there when you're not sacrifice spec. I'd say maybe they buffed incinerates formula/spell power coefficient, but I don't think that's an adequate explanation because this 15% is on top of even the mastery increase, whereas a change to formula/sp coef would not yield a flat 15% increase at all spellpower levels.

    When you buff sac, you get the extra 15%, so your tooltip and damage with incinerate look like this: 100*(1+X)*1.15*1.15. You can verify this yourself.

    Now, FNB we expect to just do the tooltip's damage decreased to the FNB coefficient (just the % on the FNB tooltip), which we'll just call FNB in formulas.

    From my tests, it looks as if FNB Incinerate while buffed with Sac are doing this damage: 100*(1+X)*1.15*FNB*.85. This .85 I think is to correct for this 15% increase to normal incinerate. Possibly making the 15% intentional and completely unannounced as far as I know. If you want to test this yourself cast lots of Sac FNB Incinerates, and compare the average value with 100*(1+X)*1.15*FNB, which is just the tooltip you see for incinerate right now times the FNB coefficient. So because (1.15*.85) = .97750, Sac FNB is getting hit by a 2.25% penalty because of this .85 correction factor for the 15% incinerate buff.

    Which would make this essentially correct:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    Whaaat
    Maybe FnB throws real Incinerates affected by GoSac, so they put an additional modifier on FnB to offset the bonus from GoSac when you have it, and they made a mistake or forgot to modify it after GoSac was nerfed.
    I don't think that's intended anyway.
    What I'm still confused by, however, is why No-Sac FNB Incinerates are doing more than we should expect (more than 100*(1+X)*1.15*FNB). So while Sac FNB Incinerates are doing 2.25% less than we should expect (100*(1+X)*1.15*FNB), No Sac FNB Incinerates are doing even more than we should expect. Making the difference between the two greater than 2.25%. At this point I think this gap increases as your Mastery Incinerate value (X) increases because this difference is extremely difficult to notice when you have no gear on (only 9% base mastery for incinerate) but becomes much more noticeable when you have lots of gear on (~30% mastery for incinerate).
    Last edited by known; 2013-09-30 at 04:50 AM.

  10. #2350
    High Overlord Melian's Avatar
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    Has anyone an answer to my question on page 116? Is Troll still the best race? Haste on use sounds quite weak for destruction...
    I don't trust my Simcraft results at all, because they tell me to go for haste (plotted the stats, not just the scalefactor).
    Krallnor <Lords of Heaven> - Eredar EU formerly known as Melian <Lords of Heaven> - Eredar EU
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  11. #2351
    Can somebody give me some ideas why I should use t16 2pc as destro?

    Conflagrate critical strikes have a 20% chance to increase the critical strike chance of Immolate and Incinerate by 10%.

    At least from my (and simc's) understanding, the uptime is very low and when it is up, it doesn't do much.. Sims out at less than 1 k dps, which is, quite frankly, a joke. Maybe it is modeled wrong and does also increase the crit chance for the immolate ticks? Any data would be highly appreciated.

    ===============

    @melian: this is your results for the very latest simc build

    looks reasonable.

  12. #2352
    Quote Originally Posted by Berthold View Post
    Can somebody give me some ideas why I should use t16 2pc as destro?

    Conflagrate critical strikes have a 20% chance to increase the critical strike chance of Immolate and Incinerate by 10%.

    At least from my (and simc's) understanding, the uptime is very low and when it is up, it doesn't do much.. Sims out at less than 1 k dps, which is, quite frankly, a joke. Maybe it is modeled wrong and does also increase the crit chance for the immolate ticks? Any data would be highly appreciated.

    ===============

    @melian: this is your results for the very latest simc build

    looks reasonable.
    I can imagine the 2 pc to help out some in AoE situation, where it will reduce the number of targets required to maintain your ember amount while spamming FnB incinerate. FnB conflag a pack, bound to crit somewhere -> increases crit chance of FnB immolate and incinerate -> more embers generated

  13. #2353
    Do Destruction Warlocks use Frenzied Crystal of Rage?
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

  14. #2354
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Do Destruction Warlocks use Frenzied Crystal of Rage?
    I could imagine using that on some aoe based fights like Galakras and Spoils. Maybe on garrosh depending on how to deal with adds with the raidgroup ( unnecessary aoe spam is fun). Other than that i wouldn't use it.
    For Pony!!!!
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  15. #2355
    Quote Originally Posted by Berthold View Post
    Can somebody give me some ideas why I should use t16 2pc as destro?
    Because the 4 piece is amazing. Screw using the 2 piece if you have better options, but as destro if you're not going for the 4 set bonus ASAP you're doing it wrong.

  16. #2356
    Quote Originally Posted by Berthold View Post
    Can somebody give me some ideas why I should use t16 2pc as destro?

    Conflagrate critical strikes have a 20% chance to increase the critical strike chance of Immolate and Incinerate by 10%.

    At least from my (and simc's) understanding, the uptime is very low and when it is up, it doesn't do much.. Sims out at less than 1 k dps, which is, quite frankly, a joke. Maybe it is modeled wrong and does also increase the crit chance for the immolate ticks? Any data would be highly appreciated.
    So I asked this question a while ago, and it doesn't seem viable on single target. Since no one seemed to know, I started to look into it myself. By playing around, it seems as if when you FnB conflag, EACH conflag has a chance to proc the set bonus. This makes it very viable in situations where you AoE, as FnB Conflag to FnB buffed immo can be a fair chunk of embers/damage. I'm not sure if thats superior to the DS bonus, but given the higher item levels it may very well be worth it in AoE situations. In single target though the buff just has really low uptime, in pure single target its a struggle to even get 5% uptime on it.

  17. #2357
    Quote Originally Posted by Xorn View Post
    Because the 4 piece is amazing. Screw using the 2 piece if you have better options, but as destro if you're not going for the 4 set bonus ASAP you're doing it wrong.
    What spells would be best to get off in that 5s window, a CB and an Immolate?

  18. #2358
    Quote Originally Posted by Tazgoth View Post
    What spells would be best to get off in that 5s window, a CB and an Immolate?
    Appliying an Immolate with increased Crit Chance is always a good idea.
    I did not have time for proper theorycrafting, but the Crit Chance of the applied Immolate is to a certain degree more important than the Spellpower. (talking about Proccs/Short Time Buffs)

    When other Proccs are active, it is beneficial to use a Chaos Bolt and reapply Immolate, maintaining the increased Ember generation. (Multitarget may vary, but I would prefer the increased Ember generation in these cases.)
    The order of those two spells may vary, but you want to maximize the Chaos Bolt.

  19. #2359
    Mechagnome
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    right now im using 522 + 8 cha-ye's and woosh trinkets. Would it be worth my wild to pick up the yulons bite to replace on of these for the crit proc?

  20. #2360
    Quote Originally Posted by UcanDoSht View Post
    Do Destruction Warlocks use Frenzied Crystal of Rage?
    No advice on this one?
    Most people do not realize the talent and skill it requires to be in a top guild. Many of you think its only about time invested, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

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