1. #2481
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodianni View Post
    I can't understand how Haste would be good for Destro. I mean, once you hit 1s GCD on Incinerate with Backcraft, isn't any extra haste pretty much useless?
    Well, not totally useless since you still have non-Backdrafted Incinerates and Chaos Bolt that is obviously well over GCD, but you have to consider what you're giving up to get those cast times lower.

  2. #2482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zumzumzum View Post
    You mean like every instant ?
    Very funny, but you are missing the point. A poster said something about precasting Incinerate(?) and RoF. Brusalk asked how do you precast 2 spells. I was just pointing out what that poster meant.
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  3. #2483
    Just a quick question. Destro with legendary meta, What should I doing with the proc?

  4. #2484
    Quote Originally Posted by spinalz View Post
    Just a quick question. Destro with legendary meta, What should I doing with the proc?
    Before I switched to regular meta, this is what I did:

    refresh Immolate if it had no other/better buffs on it; use non-backdrafted incinerates if at all possible (watch timer so you're not sitting on 2 charges of Conflag, but try to use entire gem proc on regular Incinerates if possible -- bleed a Chaos Bolt if you would otherwise cap on embers during this...)

    Basically just rotation as normal, but knowing you don't want to use Backdraft stacks simultaneously with LMG procs ... unless you've managed to get rid of enough haste where you're still not under the GCD.
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  5. #2485
    I was having a similar issue but I think the Binding trinket messes with the stat weights on AMR. I posted a question like this on the AMR forums :

    It seems the Purified Bindings of Immerseus is causing haste to be better than crit, despite haste having a lower weight.

    Actually this seems to make sense. Purified Bindings of Immerseus gives you 7.54% more haste (so your new haste = your old haste * 107.54%), but only increases critical effect by 7.54% instead of giving you 7.54% more crit. So your critical chance stays the same, the difference being that instead of your crits hitting for 200% damage, they hit for 207.54% damage. This devalues crit when compared to mastery and haste.

    Someone with more knowledge on exactly how the trinket is working should probably clarify this a bit though.




    Quote Originally Posted by Rhodianni View Post
    I want to give Destro a real shot in the upcoming weeks, but I'm a bit confused on how exactly my character should be gem and reforge.

    From what I understand, Crit is better for Single Target, Mastery for multi-target and Haste is equally good for both ST and MT. Looking at SoO encounters, it makes sense to prioritize Mastery over Crit. The Legendary Meta Gem proc, Backdraft, Bloodlust and in my case Haste trinket drags down the value of Haste, because Incinerate can very quickly be at <1s cast time, and at that point, any extra Haste becomes useless since you can't cast faster than the 1s GCD.

    With this in mind, I went to MrRobot to see what they thought about it. One of the profiles follows the "Mastery >= Crit > Haste", with Mastery = 4.6, Crit = 5.5 and Haste = 4.2. Those weights seemed quite reasonable, so I followed them. Those weights put me at 15585 Mastery, 3689 Crit and 5971 Haste.

    I then jumped back to the game and made the minor changes that MrRobot suggested and started hitting the dummy with self buffs only. I quickly noticed that even without 5% haste, any time I had a Backdraft + Trinket or Backdraft + Metagem, my Incinerate would be at <1s. Thats no good right?

    I took a better look at my reforges, and noticed that MrRobot reforged 2k Crit in to mostly Haste and some Mastery. From what I understand about Destro, that must be wrong.

    So I downloaded SimCraft to get my own stat weights. On 1 Target, Patchwerk 450 seconds I got "Crit ~= Mastery ~= Haste" at Crit = 3.67, Mastery = 3.59 and Haste = 3.45. For 2 Targets, Patchwerk 450 seconds I get "Mastery ~= Crit > Haste", with Mastery = 5.22, Crit = 5.18 and Haste = 4.83.

    The problem is, according to MrRobot, the stat weights that they use and the 1 Target and 2 Target weights that I got from SimCraft are all the "same". The weights don't change enough to be worth for me to change a single reforge or gem.

    Here are the reforge plots that I got from the 1 Target sim


    2 Target Sim



    I'm new to using SimCraft and used the guide on it by Evrelia to get me started, and from what I understand, it seems that at -1500 Haste +1500 Mastery I get a 1k DPS increase.

    As I was writing this I realized that the reason for the Haste to Mastery to be nonexistent on my gear is because every piece that I have already has Mastery on it, the ones that do not ( Ring, Cloak ) are behaving as expected. So even though -1500 Haste +1500 Mastery is a DPS increase, it's just impossible for me to get to it.

    With the Haste vs Mastery out of the way, I went to figure out why the hell am I being told to reforge out of Crit for Haste.

    1 Target Sim



    2 Target Sim



    It seems that at the +1600 Crit -1600 Haste, I get a 1k~ DPS increase for both ST and MT, not to mention being GCD capped less often. I have exactly 1675 Haste reforged from Crit, so by undoing the reforge on those items should see a increase on my DPS.

    I guess on the process of writing this down I answered myself. Mastery >= Crit > Haste. It's worth reforging out of Haste for more Mastery, but it's impossible. It's worth reforging out of Haste for more Crit, it's possible.

    I guess my final question are: why the hell is MrRobot ( and I assume ReforgeLite too ) - supported by SimCraft Statweights - telling me to reforge out of Crit for more Haste? Are there any flaws on the path that I took to reach my conclusions?

    Sorry about the long rant, just want to get this thing right.
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  6. #2486
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Before I switched to regular meta, this is what I did:

    refresh Immolate if it had no other/better buffs on it; use non-backdrafted incinerates if at all possible (watch timer so you're not sitting on 2 charges of Conflag, but try to use entire gem proc on regular Incinerates if possible -- bleed a Chaos Bolt if you would otherwise cap on embers during this...)

    Basically just rotation as normal, but knowing you don't want to use Backdraft stacks simultaneously with LMG procs ... unless you've managed to get rid of enough haste where you're still not under the GCD.
    Isn't it also a dps gain to use RoF in this situation as well? I'm not 100% on this one, but I could have sworn that even in single target with an extreme haste buff it's a gain to use over incinerate.

  7. #2487
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimsock View Post
    I was having a similar issue but I think the Binding trinket messes with the stat weights on AMR. I posted a question like this on the AMR forums :

    It seems the Purified Bindings of Immerseus is causing haste to be better than crit, despite haste having a lower weight.

    Actually this seems to make sense. Purified Bindings of Immerseus gives you 7.54% more haste (so your new haste = your old haste * 107.54%), but only increases critical effect by 7.54% instead of giving you 7.54% more crit. So your critical chance stays the same, the difference being that instead of your crits hitting for 200% damage, they hit for 207.54% damage. This devalues crit when compared to mastery and haste.

    Someone with more knowledge on exactly how the trinket is working should probably clarify this a bit though.
    so it means that 7.54% bonus is already accounted in weight from simcraft and ask mr. robot multiplies it by another 7.54%

  8. #2488
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    Basically just rotation as normal, but knowing you don't want to use Backdraft stacks simultaneously with LMG procs ... unless you've managed to get rid of enough haste where you're still not under the GCD.
    In other words what you really mean is don't use Conflagrate if you don't have to.

  9. #2489
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    I'm kinda new warlock and I was wondering what do you guys think about Kadris' Toxic Totem.


  10. #2490
    There was a brief discussion last page discussing unusual stat weights showing up in sims for destro. This is still happening to me even after removing the line using rain of fire (which said it was only to be used in situations with more than 1 target, so I don't think it was being used anyway set on patchwerk and 1 enemy).

    It's worth noting that I'm a novice with simcraft so I'm still using my current gear/gems (for affliction) aside from swapping normal mode Breath of the Hydra for Yu'lon's bite (I don't know how to change the profile other doing it all in game and logging out to update armory). I switched that because I felt like there weren't enough periodic sources in destro, and crit was supposed to be more powerful.

    My armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...hilus/advanced

    Simulation screenshots:

    Destruction, aff reforges/gear, supremacy.



    Destruction, aff reforges/gear, sacrifice.



    Would love some help sorting this out, is it even possible that it is overvaluing haste because I already have a lot? Again, I'm using affliction gear, gems, and reforges because I don't know how to update them without making all of those switches in game then updating armory.
    Last edited by Aethilus; 2013-10-05 at 09:35 AM.
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  11. #2491
    Quote Originally Posted by Erathus View Post
    I'm kinda new warlock and I was wondering what do you guys think about Kadris' Toxic Totem.
    According to the list published by Gaddoh (about 10 days ago?) it's a very good trinket for destro with only purified bindings & black blood of yshaarj being better.

  12. #2492
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xorn View Post
    Isn't it also a dps gain to use RoF in this situation as well? I'm not 100% on this one, but I could have sworn that even in single target with an extreme haste buff it's a gain to use over incinerate.
    I was also curious about this. If Lust, LMG and Beserking it up, surely Rain of fire is worth casting over a 0.6 sec incinerate, anyone can confirm?
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  13. #2493
    Pretty sure Brusalk mentioned that already; with Lust + another haste proc, cast RoF.

  14. #2494
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    In other words what you really mean is don't use Conflagrate if you don't have to.
    Stop relaying the same amount of information as me while using fewer words. It's not ladylike.
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  15. #2495
    Quote Originally Posted by Aethilus View Post
    There was a brief discussion last page discussing unusual stat weights showing up in sims for destro. This is still happening to me even after removing the line using rain of fire (which said it was only to be used in situations with more than 1 target, so I don't think it was being used anyway set on patchwerk and 1 enemy).

    It's worth noting that I'm a novice with simcraft so I'm still using my current gear/gems (for affliction) aside from swapping normal mode Breath of the Hydra for Yu'lon's bite (I don't know how to change the profile other doing it all in game and logging out to update armory). I switched that because I felt like there weren't enough periodic sources in destro, and crit was supposed to be more powerful.

    My armory: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...hilus/advanced

    Simulation screenshots:

    Destruction, aff reforges/gear, supremacy.



    Destruction, aff reforges/gear, sacrifice.



    Would love some help sorting this out, is it even possible that it is overvaluing haste because I already have a lot? Again, I'm using affliction gear, gems, and reforges because I don't know how to update them without making all of those switches in game then updating armory.
    Think of Haste VS Mastery this way:

    Having Haste makes having more Haste worth more. Having more Mastery/Crit ups the value of Mastery and Crit.

    If you were to imagine a graph of more Haste on the left, and more Mastery to the right, plotted for absolute DPS you'd get something roughly like this (fear my awesome ascii skills):

    Code:
                         |
                         |
    |                    |
    |                    |
              ...
    |____________________|
    Haste vs Mastery

  16. #2496
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Think of Haste VS Mastery this way:

    Having Haste makes having more Haste worth more. Having more Mastery/Crit ups the value of Mastery and Crit.

    If you were to imagine a graph of more Haste on the left, and more Mastery to the right, plotted for absolute DPS you'd get something roughly like this (fear my awesome ascii skills):

    Code:
                         |
                         |
    |                    |
    |                    |
              ...
    |_____________|
    Haste vs Mastery
    Thanks, I figured that must be the reason, but wasn't entirely sure.
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  17. #2497
    Quote Originally Posted by Xorn View Post
    While I mostly agree with this post, I will disagree with the assertion that casting CB within the duration of the 4 set proc is a good idea under most circumstances. Since it only procs when an ember fills, casting CB on every proc would under normal circumstances result in a 0 sum ember level. This is not the correct way to play destro. 15% crit chance is not that great of a damage increase to CB, especially compared to high end Int procs and DS.

    The only times I would ever advise casting CB under the 4 set are:
    -IF the gained embers from a SB execute proc the bonus
    -if you just filled up your 4th ember
    -if DS or any strong proc is also up

    It's not a strong proc for CB on its own, and using it every time you gain it will certainly result in not having enough embers for better procs.

    Instead, I'd recommend using Conflag (if you have one) during the proc in an attempt to fish for a 2 set proc, and then Immolate.
    so i had a thought. Its always been at 3.5 embers if you have no procs you blow an ember. With the tier 16 4 set bonus, would we want to push it to 4 embers, to activate the set bonus to dump embers with the 15% crit chance? Could lose some emberbits, but each time (or every other time) you filled that last ember it would have the proc immediately for an immo and CB or such, instead of hitting 3 embers, pushing to 3.5 and maybe missing the window. From what i understand you don't want to fire of a CB everytime you get the proc, cause then you'll simply be using them as soon you get embers, and be short on embers when you get the high int procs. Lets say you push to 4, get the 15% crit, fire off CB to dump, then trinkets proc, you've still got 4, instead of trying to get to 3.5 and missing the proc, or just burning at 3, so you'd be at 2 embers when trinkets proc. Its just a thought. Wasn't sure whats the best way to tackle it, and can't test it since i don't have the 4 set yet.

    Basically, we know we have to dump some CB with no procs...is it worth it to push 4 embers, so atleast a few we dump will have a small proc?

  18. #2498
    As an update, I decided to put in the money necessary to switch all of my stats and try a mastery/crit build and then sim to get my stat weights that aren't thrown off by having too much haste, and they are still weighing haste higher than anything else. This sim was done with only 2334 haste (lowest I could get).



    As you can see it is still valuing haste higher than any other stat. Would love to find out why this is happening. As of this post, My armory is exactly the gear gems and reforges that I had when I did the sim.
    You're just jealous because the voices are talking to me!

  19. #2499
    Quote Originally Posted by Aethilus View Post
    As an update, I decided to put in the money necessary to switch all of my stats and try a mastery/crit build and then sim to get my stat weights that aren't thrown off by having too much haste, and they are still weighing haste higher than anything else. This sim was done with only 2334 haste (lowest I could get).



    As you can see it is still valuing haste higher than any other stat. Would love to find out why this is happening. As of this post, My armory is exactly the gear gems and reforges that I had when I did the sim.
    I'm having a similar issue. It's been confusing me all day.


  20. #2500
    Speaking of strange scale factors



    That's KTT+Bindings, Mastery>Haste>>Crit build

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