1. #2501
    I know i'm kind of posting out of response compared to what you guys are discussing, but is destruction a viable spec now? haven't really played it since start of cata, and how does it compare dps wise to affliction? because I know it's sure as hell more fun :P

  2. #2502
    The Patient Furtylol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    The Lonely Mountain
    Posts
    335
    Quote Originally Posted by onehittomany View Post
    I know i'm kind of posting out of response compared to what you guys are discussing, but is destruction a viable spec now? haven't really played it since start of cata, and how does it compare dps wise to affliction? because I know it's sure as hell more fun :P
    Yes

    10char

  3. #2503
    Quote Originally Posted by tret View Post
    so i had a thought. Its always been at 3.5 embers if you have no procs you blow an ember. With the tier 16 4 set bonus, would we want to push it to 4 embers, to activate the set bonus to dump embers with the 15% crit chance? Could lose some emberbits, but each time (or every other time) you filled that last ember it would have the proc immediately for an immo and CB or such, instead of hitting 3 embers, pushing to 3.5 and maybe missing the window. From what i understand you don't want to fire of a CB everytime you get the proc, cause then you'll simply be using them as soon you get embers, and be short on embers when you get the high int procs. Lets say you push to 4, get the 15% crit, fire off CB to dump, then trinkets proc, you've still got 4, instead of trying to get to 3.5 and missing the proc, or just burning at 3, so you'd be at 2 embers when trinkets proc. Its just a thought. Wasn't sure whats the best way to tackle it, and can't test it since i don't have the 4 set yet.

    Basically, we know we have to dump some CB with no procs...is it worth it to push 4 embers, so atleast a few we dump will have a small proc?
    I think it depends on your crit chance. Logic as follows:

    It depends on how many embers you waste while doing so. For example, lets say you're at 3.9 embers, you cast an incinerate and it has 0.5s travel time, and you cast a 2.5s chaos bolt in that time. You fill up your ember with 2s left in the cast, and in that time you get an immolate tick. You potentially waste embers for 15% more damage on your CB. You only want to fill up if the 15% buff to CB damage is worth losing out on a partial CB later on.

    So incinerate generates 0.1*(1+crit chance)*1.15 embers. Incinerate always generates 0.1 embers, with a crit chance percentage of doubling that, and a 15% chance of doubling that. However, since you're at 3.9, you will use 0.1 of those embers.

    Immolate ticks generate 0.1(crit chance) embers because it only generates embers on a crit.

    So the way to think about it is if the 15% bonus chaos bolt damage is worth losing out on the embers, which is a partial chaos bolt later in the fight.
    For it to be worth it, 15% chaos bolt damage > 0.115(1+crit)[incinerate embers]+(0.1)(crit chance)[immolate embers]

    0.15 Chaos Bolt > 0.115(1+crit)[Incinerate ember generation]+0.1(crit)[Immolate ember generation]-0.1[the ember that would be used to cap to 4.0, triggering the 4pc]
    0.15 Chaos Bolt > 0.015+0.215(crit)
    0.135 Chaos Bolt > 0.215(crit)

    That means your crit chance needs to be at least 62.5% for it to be, on average, better to generate embers and cast CB early than to let your 4pc fill up.

    Couple issues with my math: I don't know how 15% ember generation bonus on incinerate interacts with crit, I assumed it produces 4 embers optimally, but it could produce 3 which would be [0.1(1+crit chance)+0.1(.15)] instead. That changes it to 67.5% crit, which isn't much of a big deal honestly. I assumed the ICD of the 4pc would be up, which it actually may not in which case you don't want to save. I also assume the future chaos bolt will not be under a trinket, which is not neccesarily true; a trinket could proc as you fill it up again resulting in much higher damage.

    That said, I don't think its a good idea. Intuitively, if you generate more than 0.15 embers you are wasting damage capping chaos bolts. The reality of the situation is that the damage increase from doing so is small. You have to keep track to make sure that you immediately cast a chaos bolt at 3.9 embers, and the damage gain just isn't worth it. You will at most gain 0.15 unbuffed chaos bolt damage if you do so(which for my ~550 lock is around 600k), so 90k bonus but if you mess up you potentially lose a lot more damage. It also could potentially mean a lot more damage if a trinket is going to proc soon, as you could, in the worst cast scenario, waste 0.3 embers(immo crit, incin crits and bonus gain) of a buffed chaos bolt later on which could be upwards of 300k damage. The tradeoff between best case and worst case doesn't seem to justify the micromanagement of embers on such a minute level when error could screw you far more.

  4. #2504
    Quote Originally Posted by Sadinar View Post
    I think it depends on your crit chance. Logic as follows:

    It depends on how many embers you waste while doing so. For example, lets say you're at 3.9 embers, you cast an incinerate and it has 0.5s travel time, and you cast a 2.5s chaos bolt in that time. You fill up your ember with 2s left in the cast, and in that time you get an immolate tick. You potentially waste embers for 15% more damage on your CB. You only want to fill up if the 15% buff to CB damage is worth losing out on a partial CB later on.

    So incinerate generates 0.1*(1+crit chance)*1.15 embers. Incinerate always generates 0.1 embers, with a crit chance percentage of doubling that, and a 15% chance of doubling that. However, since you're at 3.9, you will use 0.1 of those embers.

    Immolate ticks generate 0.1(crit chance) embers because it only generates embers on a crit.

    So the way to think about it is if the 15% bonus chaos bolt damage is worth losing out on the embers, which is a partial chaos bolt later in the fight.
    For it to be worth it, 15% chaos bolt damage > 0.115(1+crit)[incinerate embers]+(0.1)(crit chance)[immolate embers]

    0.15 Chaos Bolt > 0.115(1+crit)[Incinerate ember generation]+0.1(crit)[Immolate ember generation]-0.1[the ember that would be used to cap to 4.0, triggering the 4pc]
    0.15 Chaos Bolt > 0.015+0.215(crit)
    0.135 Chaos Bolt > 0.215(crit)

    That means your crit chance needs to be at least 62.5% for it to be, on average, better to generate embers and cast CB early than to let your 4pc fill up.

    Couple issues with my math: I don't know how 15% ember generation bonus on incinerate interacts with crit, I assumed it produces 4 embers optimally, but it could produce 3 which would be [0.1(1+crit chance)+0.1(.15)] instead. That changes it to 67.5% crit, which isn't much of a big deal honestly. I assumed the ICD of the 4pc would be up, which it actually may not in which case you don't want to save. I also assume the future chaos bolt will not be under a trinket, which is not neccesarily true; a trinket could proc as you fill it up again resulting in much higher damage.

    That said, I don't think its a good idea. Intuitively, if you generate more than 0.15 embers you are wasting damage capping chaos bolts. The reality of the situation is that the damage increase from doing so is small. You have to keep track to make sure that you immediately cast a chaos bolt at 3.9 embers, and the damage gain just isn't worth it. You will at most gain 0.15 unbuffed chaos bolt damage if you do so(which for my ~550 lock is around 600k), so 90k bonus but if you mess up you potentially lose a lot more damage. It also could potentially mean a lot more damage if a trinket is going to proc soon, as you could, in the worst cast scenario, waste 0.3 embers(immo crit, incin crits and bonus gain) of a buffed chaos bolt later on which could be upwards of 300k damage. The tradeoff between best case and worst case doesn't seem to justify the micromanagement of embers on such a minute level when error could screw you far more.
    yea, i wasn't sure if it would be worth it or not, losing out on embers, which would reduce the chaos bolts you could potentially cast throughout the fight. Also, you're assuming 3.9..just the same, it could be 3.6, with everything you're saying would line up perfectly, but again, rng is rng. Just wasn't sure what the trade off was. if it was worth trying to cast the CB that you "dump" under a 15% buff vs playing it safe and casting with no buff.

  5. #2505
    Quote Originally Posted by Aethilus View Post
    As an update, I decided to put in the money necessary to switch all of my stats and try a mastery/crit build and then sim to get my stat weights that aren't thrown off by having too much haste, and they are still weighing haste higher than anything else. This sim was done with only 2334 haste (lowest I could get).



    As you can see it is still valuing haste higher than any other stat. Would love to find out why this is happening. As of this post, My armory is exactly the gear gems and reforges that I had when I did the sim.
    Just wanted to let you all know that I have some time this afternoon and I'm going to be doing some hardcore theorycrafting to figure everything out.

  6. #2506
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Posts
    1,039
    I think it must have something to do with bindings because before I picked up the trinket I was Mastery > Crit > Haste (haste lower by quite a margin) and since I picked up the heroic version it has jumped to something as above (Haste > Mastery > Crit).

    FWIW I'm using regular burning primal as opposed to sinister primal which aethilus is using.

    OT: I am in love with this spec right now! Highest chaos bolt today was 2.61M on thok on the opener
    Last edited by Liquidsteel; 2013-10-06 at 10:28 PM.



    Youtube and Kill Videos
    Halcyon @ EU Al'Akir is recruiting. Contact me for details.

  7. #2507
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    hardcore theorycrafting
    The best kind of theorycrafting ಠ_ಠ

  8. #2508
    Trying out destro for the first time in awhile this week. For garrosh normal is glyph of havoc worth taking? Or MF?

  9. #2509
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Posts
    1,039
    Quote Originally Posted by missbrooklyn25 View Post
    Trying out destro for the first time in awhile this week. For garrosh normal is glyph of havoc worth taking? Or MF?
    KJC is invaluable. Loads of movement, especially in transitions.

    Don't take havoc glyph because there's always something to havoc.



    Youtube and Kill Videos
    Halcyon @ EU Al'Akir is recruiting. Contact me for details.

  10. #2510
    Hey guys! I have a question about SoO trinkets... Is Kardris' Toxic Totem really good for Destruction? Im using atm Binding normal 2/2 and Wushoolay Hc 2/2, but i just got KTT, so now im wondering if it is really better than the Wushoolay.

    I just wanted to be sure before i reforge all that hit rating to reach hit cap again once i unequip Wushoolay...

    Btw, what are the Bis trinkets for Destro from SoO?



    " So much lost time... that you'll never get back!"....

  11. #2511
    Quote Originally Posted by Warrada View Post
    Hey guys! I have a question about SoO trinkets... Is Kardris' Toxic Totem really good for Destruction? Im using atm Binding normal 2/2 and Wushoolay Hc 2/2, but i just got KTT, so now im wondering if it is really better than the Wushoolay.

    I just wanted to be sure before i reforge all that hit rating to reach hit cap again once i unequip Wushoolay...

    Btw, what are the Bis trinkets for Destro from SoO?
    5.4 Trinket Lists Affliction Demonology Destruction Updated October 6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkuggz
    The trinket lists are based off HC gear from Siege of Orgrimmar, remember the values are based on having 1 trinket equipped and thus not 100% accurate. Some trinkets work together better than others and it’s just a rough guideline to compare trinkets. You can always try to simulate your trinket combinations to see the values in your gear set.

  12. #2512
    Ok i give in, any chance some of you could give some tips on whats best to use because ive followed these threads other threads, icy veins says one thing mr robot say another, check top players armory's yet there stat prio seems diff to what some others say.....confused.
    Ive used mr robot as a reference since patch but it feels like destruction has gone to complete shit to me, i ended up stacking mastery in the end;
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...or/Sogz/simple
    Not sure if its gear/gems/reforges..could even be the player, i certainly dont mind accepting that overnight i forgot how to play lock.
    Would love some advice from you other fellow locks to wtf im doing wrong though or any tips etc.

  13. #2513
    Quote Originally Posted by BatteredSausage View Post
    Ok i give in, any chance some of you could give some tips on whats best to use because ive followed these threads other threads, icy veins says one thing mr robot say another, check top players armory's yet there stat prio seems diff to what some others say.....confused.
    Ive used mr robot as a reference since patch but it feels like destruction has gone to complete shit to me, i ended up stacking mastery in the end;
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...or/Sogz/simple
    Not sure if its gear/gems/reforges..could even be the player, i certainly dont mind accepting that overnight i forgot how to play lock.
    Would love some advice from you other fellow locks to wtf im doing wrong though or any tips etc.
    I am by no means a top lock yet, but my understanding is Mastery > Crit > Haste. In my current gear setup, without legendary setup, I pull exactly what I sim as, and it seems to be the best I have found thus far.

    Sig made by Shyama. Click sig for current Warlock armory.

  14. #2514
    High Overlord Gorthan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Empires des Lumieres
    Posts
    178
    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidsteel View Post
    KJC is invaluable. Loads of movement, especially in transitions.

    Don't take havoc glyph because there's always something to havoc.
    Over MF? I'm not convinced. The only situation where i see KJC be better than MF is on the intimacy (is that the name?) phase with adds.

  15. #2515
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Posts
    1,039
    Why would you take mannoroths. Phase 1 is a joke so speccing into more add damage is just padding.

    I'm talking 10 man but there is quite a bit of movement from dodging desecrate, moving in and out of melee for mc and whirling corruption and moving from empowered whirling. I also deal with the engineer so theres that. A greater radius on mannoroths is wasted imo.



    Youtube and Kill Videos
    Halcyon @ EU Al'Akir is recruiting. Contact me for details.

  16. #2516
    High Overlord Gorthan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Empires des Lumieres
    Posts
    178
    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidsteel View Post
    Why would you take mannoroths. Phase 1 is a joke so speccing into more add damage is just padding.

    I'm talking 10 man but there is quite a bit of movement from dodging desecrate, moving in and out of melee for mc and whirling corruption and moving from empowered whirling. I also deal with the engineer so theres that. A greater radius on mannoroths is wasted imo.
    We struggled in killing adds due a low aoe dps so i took it for the increase damage. I'll give kjc a try and see if i can perform better.

  17. #2517
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Posts
    1,039
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorthan View Post
    We struggled in killing adds due a low aoe dps so i took it for the increase damage. I'll give kjc a try and see if i can perform better.
    Are you using the iron star to finish off the adds? Just need to get them down to half hp and have them knocked back into its path.



    Youtube and Kill Videos
    Halcyon @ EU Al'Akir is recruiting. Contact me for details.

  18. #2518
    MF? MF is really a rather crappy talent for destro, AD and KJC is the only viable choice for destro IMO and of those 2 choices, KJC is by far the better choice. for garrosh in particular, KJC is insanely good, as there are so many situations where you'll have to move, just take the phase when you get teleported into another realm, KJC is invalubale there.
    Last edited by almara2512; 2013-10-07 at 11:04 AM.

  19. #2519
    regarding the t16 4pc. simcraft agrees with your conclusions that you should *not* use it for casting a slightly buffedCB. Instead it should be preferable used for generating embers.

  20. #2520
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Just wanted to let you all know that I have some time this afternoon and I'm going to be doing some hardcore theorycrafting to figure everything out.
    /tap

    (10 chars)
    Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •