1. #3501
    So, I just coined heroic warforged BBoY yesterday and I already had heroic toxic totem. I'm not quite sure which one to use for destruction. Simcraft shows slightly better results with BBoY (about 2k), but I don't know, how Simcraft treats BBoY. Does it assume that I can always optimally use the procc, which would be lining up chaos bolts with my remaining embers in a way that leads to the last chaos bolt being cast with 10 stacks of the procc? Or does it use the procc in a rather stupid way and just fire off chaos bolts when the procc occurs?

    What can be done in actual bossfights lies somewhere inbetween. While you can always make intelligent use of the procc and line up your chaos bolts somewhat good towards the higher stacks of the procc, you obviously can't guarantee to always get that 9-10 stack chaos bolt.

    During progression I had to stick with a lfr BBoY for a very long time, until I got my heroic totem. While I kind of mastered the use of the BBoY-procc for destruction, my dps went up tremendously when I looted the trinket. Aside from the very big jump from flex bboy to hc ktt in terms of stats and procc power, I thought the main reason would be that the heroic trinket seems to procc a lot more often than the flex version.
    So.. how does simcraft handle BBoY? If it goes utopia-mode, I wouldn't consider those 2k theoretical dps to be worth it.

  2. #3502
    HWF Toxic Totem > HWF BBoY > HC Toxic Totem

    RNG around movement is such that HWF BBoY can be (quite a bit) better in any given situation, but if you are talking about overall, consistent results, a toxic totem will be better than a black blood at equivalent ilvl.

    As the ilvl of your BBoY is higher than your KTT, I would personally go with the BBoY and live with it's occasional frustrations, as I do think it would perform slightly better in the long run.

    All that said, the difference won't be large either way on average, so it's sort of up to your preference/comfort

  3. #3503
    Wyand, I would sim not just patchwork but light movement and helter skelter modes. I'm going to guess that KTT will come out ahead since getting that CB off at 10 stacks is big but missing it really sucks. I might favor KTT for progression/consistency and BB for trying to rank the same way KJC vs AD is a tradeoff. If you are running gosac w' destro KTT scales well. Look at your version of simC's APL for any code relating to use of CB and trinket procs....been awhile since I looked (and several versions) but IIRC it does use CB's during trinket procs by default. Both work, both are probably pretty close, its just easier to get hosed by RNG with BB. However for aff/demo BB > KTT so if you want a single gearset consider that as well.

  4. #3504
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyand1337 View Post
    So, I just coined heroic warforged BBoY yesterday and I already had heroic toxic totem. I'm not quite sure which one to use for destruction. Simcraft shows slightly better results with BBoY (about 2k), but I don't know, how Simcraft treats BBoY. Does it assume that I can always optimally use the procc, which would be lining up chaos bolts with my remaining embers in a way that leads to the last chaos bolt being cast with 10 stacks of the procc? Or does it use the procc in a rather stupid way and just fire off chaos bolts when the procc occurs?

    What can be done in actual bossfights lies somewhere inbetween. While you can always make intelligent use of the procc and line up your chaos bolts somewhat good towards the higher stacks of the procc, you obviously can't guarantee to always get that 9-10 stack chaos bolt.

    During progression I had to stick with a lfr BBoY for a very long time, until I got my heroic totem. While I kind of mastered the use of the BBoY-procc for destruction, my dps went up tremendously when I looted the trinket. Aside from the very big jump from flex bboy to hc ktt in terms of stats and procc power, I thought the main reason would be that the heroic trinket seems to procc a lot more often than the flex version.
    So.. how does simcraft handle BBoY? If it goes utopia-mode, I wouldn't consider those 2k theoretical dps to be worth it.
    I've been saying this since it was first being debated, but I feel that in practice HC KTT is better than BBoY due to having to move. However, this has already been iterated upon by Turturin/Werst so I won't say much more than that.

  5. #3505
    I coined that hwf bboy on the first kill and have been using it since (I had hwf KTT also).

    I find the bboy makes my rotation a little more fun and the status of using a trinket that most people don't have access to is nice also.

  6. #3506
    omfg Destro 2-piece is so weak ... had a (just under) 10-minute fight where it proc'd exactly one time. 1.7% uptime woooo. I realize "rng is rng", but, c'mon ... they should have given it higher proc chance with lower crit bonus. Maybe like double proc chance / half crit bonus. Or double proc chance / half duration at same bonus. Something.
    --
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
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  7. #3507
    Do you guys trust AskMrRobot for trinkets? We had a break today and was using its Find Best in Bags feature. It suggested to substitute a ring (Well that was ok) and change flex bindings to normal BBOY. I guess this is out of the question, right? :O

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...3%AAl/advanced
    Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.

  8. #3508
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    Do you guys trust AskMrRobot for trinkets? We had a break today and was using its Find Best in Bags feature. It suggested to substitute a ring (Well that was ok) and change flex bindings to normal BBOY. I guess this is out of the question, right? :O

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...3%AAl/advanced
    It be cray cray.

    Being more serious, use PBoI. In practice you'll find it difficult to get optimal use out of BBOY, in which case even flex PBoI will be better.

  9. #3509
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    It be cray cray.

    Being more serious, use PBoI. In practice you'll find it difficult to get optimal use out of BBOY, in which case even flex PBoI will be better.
    You mean for the proc only? I mean... I thought the stat % increase was the thing. I know how to game BBOY since I was using it for months before I get the hc KTT
    Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.

  10. #3510
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    You mean for the proc only? I mean... I thought the stat % increase was the thing. I know how to game BBOY since I was using it for months before I get the hc KTT
    Both are important parts of the value of each trinket. That said a huge portion of the benefit of BBOY is the proc and thus requires being able to consistently use it. Fight mechanics will often dictate movement at inopportune times. PBoI is extremely good for both it's passive haste/mastery/crit damage, as well as it's great proc that pretty much always lines up with DS.

    I didn't so much mean being able to game BBOY, but more practical usage of BBOY make it worse than it's theoretical value.

  11. #3511
    I dont see how people always say it's so easy to waste a bboy proc. you can equally waste a ktt proc in the same way, with movement. in fact, you can plan your movement strategy when you see the trinket is at 3-4 stacks.

    It's just a shallow argument imo.

  12. #3512
    Quote Originally Posted by adezero View Post
    I dont see how people always say it's so easy to waste a bboy proc. you can equally waste a ktt proc in the same way, with movement. in fact, you can plan your movement strategy when you see the trinket is at 3-4 stacks.

    It's just a shallow argument imo.
    The advantage of KTT over BBOY is that KTT is equal power regardless of when you cast during the proc. They average out to be the same intellect gain, however you can theoretically get more out of a BBOY proc by optimally casting Chaos Bolts in the higher stacks where it's above the average.

    With KTT you have 10 seconds to cast 2 Chaos Bolts of average power. Say this average is A. Thus out of 1 KTT proc you've gotten 2A int's worth of damage. This happens regardless of when you cast it during the proc.

    With BBOY between 1-4 seconds you'll be getting less than 1A int's worth of damage. At 5 you get 1As worth of damage. Between 6 and 10 you get more than 1 As worth of damage.

    Say you are in the situation where you have the ability to freely cast a Chaos Bolt between 1-7, but will get interrupted by a mechanic (such as Shredder) between 8-10. With KTT you just cast when the proc comes up, and you get 2As worth of damage. With BBOY you attempt and wait to start casting your 2 at 6 seconds. In the first case you get more than one As worth of damage, but less than 2As, and in the second bolt you get interrupted and don't get one off at all. That BBOY proc has now given you some damage S.T. 1A < gain < 2A as you've only gotten one off. In that case you would've been better off with KTT and you lost damage by having BBOY.

    Now say you have the case where you get interrupted between 0-3 but don't after that. KTT you again get 2As worth of damage. With BBOY you get > 2As worth of damage.


    The point and argument is that with KTT you are consistent and have a baseline damage higher than that of BBOY with forced unplannable movement. No one is arguing that BBOY isn't better in the cases where you can get all out of the proc that you can. It's just that with many, many mechanics knocking back or requiring movement the odds of BBOY's proc giving you less than 2As worth of damage is quite high.

  13. #3513
    it's also 10 times better during execute when you can get 4 shadowburns off at 7-10 stacks regardless of movement needed

  14. #3514
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    Quote Originally Posted by adezero View Post
    it's also 10 times better during execute when you can get 4 shadowburns off at 7-10 stacks regardless of movement needed
    While this is true you'd be lucky to get two procs inside of the average execute phase, sometimes none at all. As has been stated many times already, BBoY is theoretically superior and if everything goes perfect for you in that attempt, well that's just fantastic. Odds are that's not going to happen though, and the delta between the two trinkets even in a perfect scenario is so small that there is hardly any reason to not use KTT.
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  15. #3515
    Quote Originally Posted by adezero View Post
    it's also 10 times better during execute when you can get 4 shadowburns off at 7-10 stacks regardless of movement needed
    I guess it's a matter of whether you're aiming for consistency (which is what I would do for progression) or ranks, honestly
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  16. #3516
    I try and use simc as just a reference and not a end all of what's going on and combine that with my own perspective and perceptions of various fight mechanics. With that said, last night I upgraded from (heroic Belt of Ominous Trembles) to (heroic wf Belt of Ominous trembles). After running several sims with various fight styles, my sim dps came out lower. The only reason I can come up with (which I don't necessarily fully believe so I came here for advice) is that due to using a Keen Vermilion before the upgrade I am now using an Artful Vermillion and as a result my hit has gone from 15.19% to 14.95%. Is the .05% hit that significant, I typically would not be as concerned however my group has hit a wall on 25m H Malkorok and want to push as much as possible.

    Thank you in advance.

    PS: Apologies on not linking the actual pieces, attempted to and received the error message that I'm too new to add links and such.

  17. #3517
    Also, let's not just overlook the passive effects of these trinkets. For destro the multistrike faaaaaar outweighs the extra haste/mastery.

  18. #3518
    Quote Originally Posted by Furtylol View Post
    While this is true you'd be lucky to get two procs inside of the average execute phase, sometimes none at all.
    I'm not disagreeing and it's only my opinion, but in the current raid environment there are many fights with a ton of adds. Lots of opportunities to use BBoY for cleaving Shadowburns in optimal fashion.

  19. #3519
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    I'm not disagreeing and it's only my opinion, but in the current raid environment there are many fights with a ton of adds. Lots of opportunities to use BBoY for cleaving Shadowburns in optimal fashion.
    In those situations you wouldn't really be saving shadowburns for high stacks though, so that's not really a fair comparison.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanattos View Post
    I try and use simc as just a reference and not a end all of what's going on and combine that with my own perspective and perceptions of various fight mechanics. With that said, last night I upgraded from (heroic Belt of Ominous Trembles) to (heroic wf Belt of Ominous trembles). After running several sims with various fight styles, my sim dps came out lower. The only reason I can come up with (which I don't necessarily fully believe so I came here for advice) is that due to using a Keen Vermilion before the upgrade I am now using an Artful Vermillion and as a result my hit has gone from 15.19% to 14.95%. Is the .05% hit that significant, I typically would not be as concerned however my group has hit a wall on 25m H Malkorok and want to push as much as possible.

    Thank you in advance.

    PS: Apologies on not linking the actual pieces, attempted to and received the error message that I'm too new to add links and such.
    It's pretty important. Personally I'd never run under 15% hit even if I had to go quite a bit over hit-cap, regardless of whether it's a theoretical DPS upgrade or not. There's too many situations in fights where that one unlucky miss would cause a wipe, and to me a very, very small overall damage upgrade isn't worth that chance. (This is talking about progression, of course, as you indicated in your post.)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xorn View Post
    Also, let's not just overlook the passive effects of these trinkets. For destro the multistrike faaaaaar outweighs the extra haste/mastery.
    Multistrike is about 4.5% overall damage gain IIRC for H non-WF. It's a pretty big boost yeah, good point.

  20. #3520
    Thank you sir, and very good point, I'll make the adjustments before tonight.

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