1. #3661
    very useful information for garrosh will have to try not using the havoc glyph, but what is best to use instead

  2. #3662
    Siphon Life, Eternal Resolve and Soulstone?

  3. #3663
    Mechagnome chaddd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    If you are personally seeing a huge loss in damage going from Crit to Haste, it's likely an issue with how you're playing, rather than a downside with Haste vs Crit. With a high haste build you need to make sure that you are making good use of Backdraft and not wasting GCDs thinking, both of which will come with more experience playing with a high haste build.
    When you talk about using backdraft correctly [using muscle memory over thinking?] what exactly do you mean? The decision tree being:

    -I hit conflag and have 3 stacks of backdraft
    -Trinket X procs and I need to cast a Chaos Bolt
    -I need to decide to cast a CB or incin then CB to drop the backdrafts to 2 before the CB?

    At this point in the game, will I always be casting the CB on a bindings/BBOY proc, even if I have 3 stacks of backdraft?

    With my high haste build, when I get a high int/crit proc, I have been trying to do CB -> Immolate -> CB. Is that correct? Should I do that no matter what my backdrafts look like?
    The light that burns twice as bright burns for half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly.

  4. #3664
    It is mostly a matter of how much embers you have, how long till Dark Soul and PBoI are ready.
    In some situations it is better to cast directly the Chaos Bolt, if you have enough embers and PBoI CD is long. In other situations, like short time until you predict a burst phase or are ember starved, better cast the Incinerate and then the CB.

    This situation has a widespread amount of possiblilties, that influence the descission making, but remember, doing something is still better than doing nothing.

  5. #3665
    Brewmaster Liquidsteel's Avatar
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    Don't cast chaos bolt under backdraft unless your procs will expire before you can get off both your spells.

    E.g. KTT has 4 seconds left. Cast incinerate then chaos bolt.

    If KTT had 2 seconds left, then forget the incinerate and consume backdraft to squeeze out that chaos bolt.

    Ideally however, in situation 2 you would have planned ahead and used conflagrate after chaos bolt.

  6. #3666
    Quote Originally Posted by chaddd View Post
    When you talk about using backdraft correctly [using muscle memory over thinking?] what exactly do you mean? The decision tree being:

    -I hit conflag and have 3 stacks of backdraft
    -Trinket X procs and I need to cast a Chaos Bolt
    -I need to decide to cast a CB or incin then CB to drop the backdrafts to 2 before the CB?

    At this point in the game, will I always be casting the CB on a bindings/BBOY proc, even if I have 3 stacks of backdraft?

    With my high haste build, when I get a high int/crit proc, I have been trying to do CB -> Immolate -> CB. Is that correct? Should I do that no matter what my backdrafts look like?
    I was more referring to not using conflag at all while you have a haste proc up, unless you are about to hit 2 charges. There's a lot of leeway associated with a 2-charge spell. I prefer the approach where I stay on 0-1 letting me postpone backdrafting for quite a while, as opposed to other people's line of thought where they float a charge so they can backdraft when they want. With a high haste build I personally feel like it's better to float 0 rather than 1 so you can avoid having backdraft up w/ temp haste procs.


    As for your specific situation, you can typically avoid having 3 stacks for when you'd need to Chaos Bolt as most procs last shorter than a 2-recharge of conflag. If you do have 3xBackdraft for some reason, then you need to decide if, by casting one incinerate to get to 2xBackdraft, you'll lose a Chaos Bolt cast during the proc you would have otherwise gotten in. (Note that this gets even more complicated if you're going to float an ember for a future proc, which is what I'm referring to in the above.) (Side note: Welcome to the hidden complexity of optimizing Destro that it seems 99% of people tend to ignore when talking about how Destro is easy)

    Typically, you only want to be Immolating under a 4pc proc, and there's no real reason to stagger CB unless the second CB will have much less power than the first, and also hit the boss during the time the first GoSac DoT is still on the target.

  7. #3667
    Does any one know at what haste our Incinerates drop below gcd during BL?


    Sorry if it's in here, I just can't find it.
    Last edited by Grizelda; 2014-05-20 at 11:41 PM.

  8. #3668
    I do just fine with little above haste cap 10437... Aim to that if you are playing M>H>C destruction... After cap, just get more crit over haste..

  9. #3669
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizelda View Post
    Does any one know at what haste our Incinerates drop below gcd during BL?


    Sorry if it's in here, I just can't find it.
    I asked couple of months ago and IIRC it's around 17k, maybe more. Brusalk can probably confirm.

  10. #3670
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scythax View Post
    Got a quick question in general about the choices between using builds that favor either haste or crit (after mastery). On sites like AMR, the general guide in this forum, as well as advice given by other prolific, experienced warlocks like Sparkuggz of Method EU, there's a prevalence for advising that people opt for haste builds over crit ones.

    This leads onto my question and uncertainty; Every time I've tried to switch up my build to favor haste over crit, my dps drops dramatically. Going from crit to haste I sometimes lose 50-70k depending on the fight, dummie or procs. I don't understand how this can be such a negative impact if so many well respected community advisers recommend it. Here's my armoury if it's relevant to understanding why this might be happening. I'm currently in my crit build because the haste was simply too detrimental.

    Armoury Link


    My second question leading on from this; If I'm having such better results from opting for crit, is that something that's totally fine to just keep using? Or is it genuinely worth sorting this issue out and changing to haste? To be perfectly honest, I enjoy crit. The casts are slower, but it's satisfying to feel like a train mounted howitzer. Some feedback on this angle would be appreciated as well.

    Thanks in advance, all. If this is better suited in another section of the forum, I apologize. But it felt out of place to be put in the sticky.

    PS: This is a relatively new character I'm still mastering. Only been in existance for a month and a half. I take all manner of advice seriously and for the betterment of my overall play.
    I am actually using a M > H > C build because I also use my affliction spec on some bosses (Protectors, Juggernaut, Thok) but we are now progressing on heroic Garrosh (10) and I was thiking about changing for M > C > H, because of the first transition and because I feel like this build has more room for personal mistakes (with backdraft, for example) and because I won't need my affliction spec anymore after Garrosh is dead.

    But I don't know if it's really worth it or not.

  11. #3671
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    I asked couple of months ago and IIRC it's around 17k, maybe more. Brusalk can probably confirm.
    Base 1.5 second cast time Incinerate needs 50% haste to go down to 1 second (same as GCD).

    Bloodlust is 30%, but haste effects stack multiplicatively, so realistically it's like: 1.5 = x*1.3. Therefore x = 1.1538 or 15.38% haste from gear to hit the GCD cap with Incinerate under bloodlust.

    To convert the percentage to overall rating, we simply use the level 90 conversion factor for haste of 425 haste rating per percent, in reverse: y = 425*15.38, and thus y = 6536 rating is needed to hit the GCD cap with Incinerate under a 30% haste buff.

  12. #3672
    The Patient
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    Hey Brusalk quick question, I read that you said to cast back to back CB with procs, even if the dot clips(when using Cb) unless the second one wont have procs, I just wanted to double check that with you. Now assuming I have a ton of procs up and 3+ embers, just keep casting it until procs run out?

  13. #3673
    Quote Originally Posted by nsgid View Post
    Hey Brusalk quick question, I read that you said to cast back to back CB with procs, even if the dot clips(when using Cb) unless the second one wont have procs, I just wanted to double check that with you. Now assuming I have a ton of procs up and 3+ embers, just keep casting it until procs run out?
    So, the only reason to ever not cast Chaos Bolts back to back is if the DoT from GoSac will be overwritten with a smaller one, AND if the ember that you would spend on the second one would otherwise be buffed enough to offset the loss.

    The DoT lasts 3 ticks, and refreshes just like other DoTs. Therefore, if the second Chaos Bolt hits shortly after the first one, then the DoT will be updated to the second ones damage value. This is a somewhat small loss (as you'll typically only lose one tick anyway), and the loss in damage from not casting the second one can easily outweigh the damage you gain from the DoT portion by not casting the second one. Therefore, if you're not going to cast back to back you need to know that the second ember you would've spent will be very close to the power of the original opportunity to cast it.

    In practice you should basically always cast back to back. The only time I don't is if I know I need to save the ember for an upcoming ICD trinket proc or damage taken phase such as PBoI, as thusly I don't lose damage by not casting the second Chaos Bolt, and I gain the damage I would've lost by overwriting the DoT.

  14. #3674
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    So, the only reason to ever not cast Chaos Bolts back to back is if the DoT from GoSac will be overwritten with a smaller one, AND if the ember that you would spend on the second one would otherwise be buffed enough to offset the loss.

    The DoT lasts 3 ticks, and refreshes just like other DoTs. Therefore, if the second Chaos Bolt hits shortly after the first one, then the DoT will be updated to the second ones damage value. This is a somewhat small loss (as you'll typically only lose one tick anyway), and the loss in damage from not casting the second one can easily outweigh the damage you gain from the DoT portion by not casting the second one. Therefore, if you're not going to cast back to back you need to know that the second ember you would've spent will be very close to the power of the original opportunity to cast it.

    In practice you should basically always cast back to back. The only time I don't is if I know I need to save the ember for an upcoming ICD trinket proc or damage taken phase such as PBoI, as thusly I don't lose damage by not casting the second Chaos Bolt, and I gain the damage I would've lost by overwriting the DoT.
    thank you for clarifying that for me Bru! Much appreciated <3

  15. #3675
    Just for the lolz... After upgrading the PBoI, the proc delay on pulls were sometimes so scandalous, that yesterday at Klaxxi hc it proced when Skeer's HP was at Shadowburn range....
    Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.

  16. #3676
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Base 1.5 second cast time Incinerate needs 50% haste to go down to 1 second (same as GCD).

    Bloodlust is 30%, but haste effects stack multiplicatively, so realistically it's like: 1.5 = x*1.3. Therefore x = 1.1538 or 15.38% haste from gear to hit the GCD cap with Incinerate under bloodlust.

    To convert the percentage to overall rating, we simply use the level 90 conversion factor for haste of 425 haste rating per percent, in reverse: y = 425*15.38, and thus y = 6536 rating is needed to hit the GCD cap with Incinerate under a 30% haste buff.
    Is there any reason to think that reforging to 6536 haste rating is optimal for Destro locks? Then you'd reforge M>=Crit after that (or maybe C>=M).

    I notice you reforge M>H>C with about 10k haste (at the time of this post).

  17. #3677
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugginz View Post
    Is there any reason to think that reforging to 6536 haste rating is optimal for Destro locks? Then you'd reforge M>=Crit after that (or maybe C>=M).

    I notice you reforge M>H>C with about 10k haste (at the time of this post).
    People feel like it feels bad and decide, contrary to what I've found, that haste caps based around Incinerate's cast time exist.

    I've found that all the way up to like 17k Haste, Haste remains equal-ish to Crit with Mastery ahead (All with GoSac).


    I think the misjudgment people have is they assume that crit remains consistent in value w/ more rating, meaning that since Haste looses some value, Crit must be better.
    In reality, both Haste and Crit lose value at about the same rate, due to different reasons. (Haste due to GCD capping issues, Crit due to the natural diminishing returns on crit rating -> total crit % gain.)

  18. #3678
    The Patient
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    Do you think it would be a good idea to kind of balance the two rather than favoring them? Right now I'm M>C>H but holy balls I can go cook me a cup of noodles in between chaos bolt casts. lol. And that 1.7 second incinerate cast is dreadful.

  19. #3679
    Quote Originally Posted by nsgid View Post
    Do you think it would be a good idea to kind of balance the two rather than favoring them? Right now I'm M>C>H but holy balls I can go cook me a cup of noodles in between chaos bolt casts. lol. And that 1.7 second incinerate cast is dreadful.
    No real difference.

    Basically, think of the two stats as stats which increase ember generation. Both stats (roughly) increase ember generation by the same amount per rating. Therefore, regardless of how much of one stat vs another you have, the sum total is the same.

    Obviously that's disregarding other damage benefits from each stat, but the core idea remains the same.

  20. #3680
    It's pretty amazing how they managed to get them so balanced, so that you can pick which suits your playstyle / preference. I was very happy when I switched back to regular meta gem and went M>H>C because it just felt like I could get the most out of my 4pc procs more consistently, but I've gotten a lot of gear since then and I'm considering switching it back to crit over haste just to see how it goes.

    Actually, I'm not sure if first I'd rather do that or give Afflic another go. Historically Aff is my favorite 'lock spec of all time but apparently I'm getting old and just can't keep up with all the soulswapping of superpowered dots. Maybe if I just try to play well instead of awesome I'll have fun with it again.
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