1. #1421
    They should remove FnB and replace it with RoF, ie. make RoF cost 1 ember and have single-target spells hit every target within the RoF. For single-target, Chaos Bolt should place a stacking crit chance debuff on the target, effectively increasing ember generation, but have it be short duration so you have to make decision to save CBs for procs or use more often to keep the stacks up.

  2. #1422
    doubt that would be a good idea unless Rof did 5-6 times more dmg than it does now, it would be a rather huge aoe nerf for destro, not to mention all the other things that FnB does like aoe CoE and while id like a stacking crit buff, i think it would be a bit much since crit also increases the dmg chaos bolt but it could easily be something similar like a debuff on the target that gives you a static chance to generate an extra ember on all our attacks, something similar to our 4pc t15 setbonus just not as limited.

  3. #1423
    Since RoF lasts ~7 seconds, you can fit several single-target spells in while it lasts for AoE damage and ember generation (to make up for no longer getting embers from RoF). All spells currently usable with FnB should be usable with RoF, including CoE. I don't see how that is an AoE nerf. You can even place multiple RoFs to cover a large area and spread your single-target to all of them. Crit chance debuff shouldn't increase the damage bonus that CB gets from crit, only the actual chance to crit, so CB is not affected at all because it always crits anyway.
    Last edited by Kuroto; 2013-05-13 at 11:08 PM.

  4. #1424
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuroto View Post
    They should remove FnB and replace it with RoF, ie. make RoF cost 1 ember and have single-target spells hit every target within the RoF. For single-target, Chaos Bolt should place a stacking crit chance debuff on the target, effectively increasing ember generation, but have it be short duration so you have to make decision to save CBs for procs or use more often to keep the stacks up.
    Debuffs aren't intended to be used that way. It'd have to be a player buff that increases crit chance. In addition it would give a ramp-up time that would be unacceptable for Destro. Destro as it is already has one of the weakest opening burst of any spec.


    The RoF idea is a decent idea, but that's way too big a change for a 5.2 like patch. That's expansion level redesign.

  5. #1425
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Debuffs aren't intended to be used that way. It'd have to be a player buff that increases crit chance. In addition it would give a ramp-up time that would be unacceptable for Destro. Destro as it is already has one of the weakest opening burst of any spec.

    The RoF idea is a decent idea, but that's way too big a change for a 5.2 like patch. That's expansion level redesign.
    Several other specs have similar mechanics, so I doubt debuffs aren't intended to be used this way, ie. applying a debuff on the target that alters the way all your other abilities affect the target. See for example: Find Weakness. I don't think a player buff would be balanced because it would affect AoE as well.

    I understand that these changes will alter how the spec is played, but I think the current design is not very elegant; FnB is subject to lag and RoF is unintuitive for single-target. This would make AoE very intuitive, but you still have to think about what single-target spells to spread, and a crit debuff would increase ember gen and make single-target/2-target cleave more compelling at the same time.
    Last edited by Kuroto; 2013-05-13 at 11:49 PM.

  6. #1426
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuroto View Post
    Several other specs have similar mechanics, so I doubt debuffs aren't intended to be used this way, ie. applying a debuff on the target that alters the way all your other abilities affect the target. See for example: Find Weakness. I don't think a player buff would be balanced because it would affect AoE as well.

    I understand that these changes will alter how the spec is played, but I think the current design is not very elegant; FnB is subject to lag and RoF is unintuitive for single-target. This would make AoE very intuitive, but you still have to think about what single-target spells to spread, and a crit debuff would increase ember gen and make single-target/2-target cleave more compelling at the same time.
    There's a BIG difference between modifying the enemy targets' stats (E.G. Find Weakness reducing enemy armor) and modifying the stats of the caster if the caster casts on the enemy with the debuff. Debuffs are usually for doing something negative to the enemy, not for buffing the player directly.

    FnB is subject to lag in 5.2, yes. However, come 5.3 their new solution already solves what you were trying to fix.

  7. #1427
    "20% more likely to suffer a critical strike from that particular player" does not differ significantly from "takes 20% more damage from that particular player" (Sanguinary Vein).

  8. #1428
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Debuffs aren't intended to be used that way. It'd have to be a player buff that increases crit chance. In addition it would give a ramp-up time that would be unacceptable for Destro. Destro as it is already has one of the weakest opening burst of any spec.


    The RoF idea is a decent idea, but that's way too big a change for a 5.2 like patch. That's expansion level redesign.
    the only way it would work would be if destro, like afflic, would generate embers outside combat, and have 4 full burning embers at the start of combat, to give them the burst they would loose from this change, and blizz would never do that, coz it would make destro too powerful in bgs and arena.

  9. #1429
    Pandaren Monk
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Södermalm
    Posts
    1,920
    Hi.
    Was gonna help a guildie and show the wonders of sims, stat weights and reforge tools.
    But the stat weights is not same as the guide suggest and never seen secondary stats being this extremely close, just wanna verify its correct before i recommend it to him :P
    This is what i got(Lightmovement, 25k iterations, no adds, version 520-10):

    Int > Hit > Crit > Haste ~= Mastery
    With: Int 4.97. Crit 2.44. Haste 2.34. Mastery 2.31.

    Is the general advice still to socket pure intellect unless socket bonus dictates otherwise ?
    Is there a destro spreadsheet or prefered calculator ?
    Here is his armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lfric/advanced

    Thanks!
    Edit. I play warrior, so any input is appreciated <3
    Last edited by santa666; 2013-05-14 at 03:18 PM.

  10. #1430
    Hi guyz,

    Im here coz im a little bit lost.
    I simmed my char last night in differents ways and the result was disturbing...

    Linkiã - eu.battle.net/wow/fr/character/conseil-des-ombres/Linki%C3%A3/advanced

    On patchwerk, 10k iterations.

    1 target :
    - GoSup (135k dps) => haste (2.33) > crit (2.25) > mastery (1.95)
    - GoSac (130k dps) => crit (2.45) > mastery (2.34) > haste (2.25)

    2 targets :
    - GoSup (187k dps) => haste (3.22) > mastery (3.04) > crit (2.77)
    - GoSac (186k dps) => mastery (3.49) > haste (3.00) > crit (2.78)

    3 targets :
    - GoSup (206k dps) => haste (3.37) > mastery (3.18) > crit (3.07)
    - GoSac (205k dps) => mastery (3.66) > haste (3.10) = crit (3.10)

    4 targets :
    - GoSup (211k dps) => mastery (5.18) > haste (4.92) > crit (4.67)
    - GoSac (193k dps) => mastery (5.48) > haste (4.64) > crit (4.48)

    So it appears that GoSup always offer me the hightest dps possible. (Maybe except on primordius but not sure)

    My first question is 'why' ?
    And the second one is 'on how many target you sim your char to get a global stat weight usable on each boss of ToT'.
    (Actually i change my GoSup/GoSac before each boss but i dont reforge my stuff)

    Thx for any advise !

    Oh and btw, sorry for my english, im belgian

  11. #1431
    Quote Originally Posted by Link3r View Post
    Hi guyz,

    Im here coz im a little bit lost.
    I simmed my char last night in differents ways and the result was disturbing...

    Linkiã - eu.battle.net/wow/fr/character/conseil-des-ombres/Linki%C3%A3/advanced

    On patchwerk, 10k iterations.

    1 target :
    - GoSup (135k dps) => haste (2.33) > crit (2.25) > mastery (1.95)
    - GoSac (130k dps) => crit (2.45) > mastery (2.34) > haste (2.25)

    2 targets :
    - GoSup (187k dps) => haste (3.22) > mastery (3.04) > crit (2.77)
    - GoSac (186k dps) => mastery (3.49) > haste (3.00) > crit (2.78)

    3 targets :
    - GoSup (206k dps) => haste (3.37) > mastery (3.18) > crit (3.07)
    - GoSac (205k dps) => mastery (3.66) > haste (3.10) = crit (3.10)

    4 targets :
    - GoSup (211k dps) => mastery (5.18) > haste (4.92) > crit (4.67)
    - GoSac (193k dps) => mastery (5.48) > haste (4.64) > crit (4.48)

    So it appears that GoSup always offer me the hightest dps possible. (Maybe except on primordius but not sure)

    My first question is 'why' ?
    And the second one is 'on how many target you sim your char to get a global stat weight usable on each boss of ToT'.
    (Actually i change my GoSup/GoSac before each boss but i dont reforge my stuff)

    Thx for any advise !

    Oh and btw, sorry for my english, im belgian
    A good rule of thumb is to only use sac when chaos bolt + shadowburn damage will make up 50%+ of your total damage on a fight, whether that's because there are infinite embers (primordius) or big periodic damage buffs (Jinrokh, although Sup is still usually better there).

    The stat weights for AOE fights and for single target are completely opposite, so you're not going to have one 'universal reforge' if you want to be optimal for all fights. Given the fight makeup of ToT, I recommend stacking as much mastery as possible if you don't want to reforge for every fight. You'll be slightly worse on single target (3-5% worse) but optimizing the single target stat weight is such a larger disadvantage on AOE fights that it's the best overall compromise (in my experience).

  12. #1432
    Keyboard Turner
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Adrano, Catania, Italy
    Posts
    8
    Hello guys, a few days ago I posted on the forum to get clarification on Destruction Warlock.
    I'm trying to increase as best as possible my DPS.
    From what I understand, at the time, the best stat is Mastery, since the majority of the fight on ToT generates many embers.
    So I'm looking for the items that have stats like Mastery / Haste.
    is that right? Or do you think it is better to look for items with mastery / crit?

    This is my character EU: Amphetamìne

    Thanks in advance. Thanks to your suggestions I have greatly increased my DPS.

  13. #1433
    I'm a little afraid to complain about RoF. The only fix I see them doing is nerfing it it into an undesirable form.

    I like the visual effect. I like it as an ember generator. I like it to proc trinks. Brings more value to haste. I see the targeting circle as a bonus. Not really all THAT hard to place.

    An increase to its range would be nice. HoG type glyph would be nice (so you have the option).

    Could also add a FnB effect to it. Burn an ember and every mob in an area gets RoF targeted on them.

    It does have a rather short duration. Could extend it and increase mana cost. It might be cool to have Conflagrate extend its duration.

    Again, I'm afraid our complaints will just result in a nerf with no compensation.

  14. #1434
    Epic!
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    France, Illidan-EU
    Posts
    1,743
    Again, I'm afraid our complaints will just result in a nerf with no compensation.
    That was my initial fear, but they seem to be willing to compensate (in term of DPS, not gameplay) it properly in 5.4.

    Xelnath did say during MoP beta that the new gameplay for Destro was a base to grow upon later, RoF was kinda that. Guess we will have to wait for 6.0 to see improvements
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  15. #1435
    Quote Originally Posted by Link3r View Post
    Hi guyz,

    Im here coz im a little bit lost.
    I simmed my char last night in differents ways and the result was disturbing...

    Linkiã - eu.battle.net/wow/fr/character/conseil-des-ombres/Linki%C3%A3/advanced

    On patchwerk, 10k iterations.

    1 target :
    - GoSup (135k dps) => haste (2.33) > crit (2.25) > mastery (1.95)
    - GoSac (130k dps) => crit (2.45) > mastery (2.34) > haste (2.25)

    2 targets :
    - GoSup (187k dps) => haste (3.22) > mastery (3.04) > crit (2.77)
    - GoSac (186k dps) => mastery (3.49) > haste (3.00) > crit (2.78)

    3 targets :
    - GoSup (206k dps) => haste (3.37) > mastery (3.18) > crit (3.07)
    - GoSac (205k dps) => mastery (3.66) > haste (3.10) = crit (3.10)

    4 targets :
    - GoSup (211k dps) => mastery (5.18) > haste (4.92) > crit (4.67)
    - GoSac (193k dps) => mastery (5.48) > haste (4.64) > crit (4.48)

    So it appears that GoSup always offer me the hightest dps possible. (Maybe except on primordius but not sure)

    My first question is 'why' ?
    And the second one is 'on how many target you sim your char to get a global stat weight usable on each boss of ToT'.
    (Actually i change my GoSup/GoSac before each boss but i dont reforge my stuff)

    Thx for any advise !

    Oh and btw, sorry for my english, im belgian

    The best way is to simply do the fight as GoSup the first few times and then add on the 15% damage on your Sac eligible spells and compare with your pets damage. Personally I found in my case only primoridus worth it to go sac on

  16. #1436
    I doubt any fight except Primordius will be better for GoSac until you can either start cheesing fights like Horridon and Tortos by spamming RoF on the adds and dump all your embers on the boss or possibly when you have better gear (530+?).

  17. #1437
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    I doubt any fight except Primordius will be better for GoSac until you can either start cheesing fights like Horridon and Tortos by spamming RoF on the adds and dump all your embers on the boss or possibly when you have better gear (530+?).
    What do you mean "cheese" the fight? Using SB/RoF to generate additional embers is a core part of Destro's game play, it's not cheese, and it's not meter-padding. Even dropping RoF/Havoc on "irrelevant" mobs (such as non-targeted heads on Megaera, or constructs on Animus) actually increases our RELEVANT dps. Why would you not do it? What is "cheesy" about that? Isn't it the optimal way to play, rather?

  18. #1438
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    What do you mean "cheese" the fight? Using SB/RoF to generate additional embers is a core part of Destro's game play, it's not cheese, and it's not meter-padding. Even dropping RoF/Havoc on "irrelevant" mobs (such as non-targeted heads on Megaera, or constructs on Animus) actually increases our RELEVANT dps. Why would you not do it? What is "cheesy" about that? Isn't it the optimal way to play, rather?
    I meant strictly putting up Immo/RoF on adds and use all embers on CB/SB on the boss, instead of using FnB and only SB cleaving.

  19. #1439
    That too is way too vague. SB cleaving can easily be done on relevant mobs that aren't <20% themselves, leading to a DPS increase on them.

    What you are trying to say, I think, is "don't shift your DPS towards irrelevant targets", but that isn't Destro- or Warlock-specific, that is a general rule of raiding. It's like saying "don't just spam AoE on Protectors in ToES" - it's an obvious statement that should go without saying, it has little to do with class mechanics, even though some classes would have an easier time doing it than others.

    I think it would be better and more constructive to emphasize the positive aspects instead of the negative ones; don't say "don't FnB/Havocleave", say "use FnB on fight X for more relevant DPS", or "Havocleave adds Y on fight Z to gain more relevant DPS". That, I think, will be much clearer and less confusing to people new to the class and its mechanics. A blanket statement of "don't cleave" only confuses such people into not making use of what is arguably one of our most powerful tools.

  20. #1440
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    What you are trying to say, I think, is "don't shift your DPS towards irrelevant targets"
    -> to make Sac viable.

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