1. #1721
    Im not sure your understanding of stat weights are correct.

    If you go to the website (or use reforgelite) and do this

    Int -5
    Mastery - 2.7
    Haste - 2.4
    Crit -2.3

    or

    Int - 1
    Mastery - 0.7
    Haste - 0.3
    Crit - 0.2

    It will still reforge your gear the same, you just set the highest number to whatever stat you want, in saying this it really is just down to preference, get your haste / crit where you want it and dump everything you can into mastery, Its almost impossible to give you the exact numbers of the stat weights for this encounter (to my knowledge anyway) because it can be played differently from group to group or even pull to pull.

    Also if your on 210k dps then there is no issue.
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  2. #1722
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    Im not sure your understanding of stat weights are correct.

    If you go to the website (or use reforgelite) and do this

    Int -5
    Mastery - 2.7
    Haste - 2.4
    Crit -2.3

    or

    Int - 1
    Mastery - 0.7
    Haste - 0.3
    Crit - 0.2

    It will still reforge your gear the same, you just set the highest number to whatever stat you want, in saying this it really is just down to preference, get your haste / crit where you want it and dump everything you can into mastery, Its almost impossible to give you the exact numbers of the stat weights for this encounter (to my knowledge anyway) because it can be played differently from group to group or even pull to pull.

    Also if your on 210k dps then there is no issue.
    I'm pretty sure that what you said here is incorrect, and that there are cases where those two setups will result in different reforges. That said, I can't prove it right now, but I will when I get a chance (or respond saying that I couldn't disprove it)

  3. #1723
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    I'm pretty sure that what you said here is incorrect, and that there are cases where those two setups will result in different reforges. That said, I can't prove it right now, but I will when I get a chance (or respond saying that I couldn't disprove it)
    you are correct, the stats aren't scaled the same in both examples. This is what would result in the same:

    Int -5
    Mastery - 2.7
    Haste - 2.4
    Crit -2.3

    or

    Int - 1
    Mastery - 0.54
    Haste - 0.48
    Crit - 0.46
    Last edited by rables; 2013-07-09 at 11:08 PM.

  4. #1724
    I meant that the reforge would still value Mastery - Haste - Crit in both examples, i guess that wasnt very clear.

    He was asking for specific reforges which you cannot give him for that fight and to just go with general reforge values where askmrrobot will prioritise the stats you want

    In the case i gave it would value Mastery - Haste - Crit (for both)

    You could ofc change the value for crit and haste if you wanted to switch them around.

    They were intentionally not multiples of each other.
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  5. #1725
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    I meant that the reforge would still value Mastery - Haste - Crit in both examples, i guess that wasnt very clear.

    He was asking for specific reforges which you cannot give him for that fight and to just go with general reforge values where askmrrobot will prioritise the stats you want

    In the case i gave it would value Mastery - Haste - Crit (for both)

    You could ofc change the value for crit and haste if you wanted to switch them around.

    They were intentionally not multiples of each other.
    You don't fully understand the significance of the numbers.

    Reforge tools try and find the most valuable combination of stats. It does this (roughly) by calculating the sum (for every stat on a piece of gear) of (stat_value)*(stat_amount).

    There's cases where you have multiple options of what to reforge into/out of where you can get a higher value by going with a lower stat_value because you're reforging into a greater stat_amount.


    It doesn't take those numbers and do a simple, "okay, reforge everything into mastery, then haste, then crit."

  6. #1726
    I do understand that, i was showing an incredibly simple example as to how to use the stat weights, seen as we didnt even have the stat weights for his character and he was asking for something even more specific which was stat weights for the fight (you have no way of knowing this to my knowledge) i said just go with any value which will force mastery highest (which it does in both examples) and then put whichever one you prefer next as your second highest and the one you want to have lowest with the lowest number.

    But this wasnt a discussion about my knowledge of stat weights
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    Warlock armory - http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%AD/advanced

  7. #1727
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    I do understand that, i was showing an incredibly simple example as to how to use the stat weights, seen as we didnt even have the stat weights for his character and he was asking for something even more specific which was stat weights for the fight (you have no way of knowing this to my knowledge) i said just go with any value which will force mastery highest (which it does in both examples) and then put whichever one you prefer next as your second highest and the one you want to have lowest with the lowest number.

    But this wasnt a discussion about my knowledge of stat weights
    I'm merely pointing out that your 2 examples won't always value haste/mastery/crit the same when reforging. The delta between the stat weights needs to be significant enough that 40% of the value of a stat on current gear has no effect on the result.

    In your second example that's not the case so it won't always value mastery as highly as you assume it does. (Hence bringing this up in the first place)

  8. #1728
    Ah, well I just decided to tell reforgelite to do it's thing. I guess I'll just refer to this guide for selection of gems. I miss ask mr robot spoon feeding me already thanks for the help tho!

  9. #1729
    Tonight I got my cha ye hc 2/2 upgreaded and Im wondering what stat priority should I go now, coz with my mastery/haste build it procs like mad, so should I go more crit instead of mastery or try to reforge all stats to equal or what ? looking for answer

    my char: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%BB/advanced

  10. #1730
    It shouldn't change your priorities at all. Haste is still the choice for single target and two-target cleave, and mastery for AoE.

  11. #1731
    Quote Originally Posted by Biomega View Post
    It shouldn't change your priorities at all. Haste is still the choice for single target and two-target cleave, and mastery for AoE.
    i personally dislike haste very much due to incinerates below gcd @ backdraft, so I try to mitigate it and have it more then 1sec gcd but meta gem pops and

  12. #1732
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...k%C3%AD/simple

    You can play like that and your damage is still fine, i refuse to play haste because i dont like the spells going under the GCD and i wont play a spec i like just to manage Rain of fire, my damage is never actually bad either tbh.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6...=14985&e=15251

    There is a pretty decent example, there is no fight in tot which is 100% single target which severely devalues haste. (Jin rock actually, but you could play no spec spamming shadowbolt with str gems and this would still die).
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  13. #1733
    Haste is mostly a theoretical benefit, in ToT practice you can do very well indeed with a full Mastery reforge. Personally I just go 8.1k Haste -> Mastery because of my Demo spec. I do agree that super-speed Incinerates are somewhat annoying WTB Glyph that makes Backdraft give no speed, but damage!

  14. #1734
    8.1k and 9778, which are doom and agony breakpoints, are both pretty managable levels of haste as destro imo. Dislike it or not, an increase is an increase.

  15. #1735
    Hey all, my character is Chãos EU Kazzak.
    Just looking to help or advise and add in my comments for this stats discussion.
    I have played destro for all of Mop I am 5/13 HC and have destro ranks including 17th on lei Shen and 15th on council.
    My stat prio is mastery crit haste. Going against what all of you are saying.
    I rock 15.6 k mastery 8.9k crit and 2.4 k haste choosing as little haste as possible. I rarely get beaten on metres and I never lose to demo locks.
    Without sounding rude. Are you all dumb? Haste? Really?
    You have the option to take mastery which increases damage of all spells mainly chaos bolts and crit which does much the same and you choose haste?
    With trinket procs I pull 800+k chaos bolts. On 10 man normal ji-kun I have flown to top nest grabbed damage buff put havoc on one egg, cast chaos bolt on the other and one shot both eggs for 1.5 million damage.. That's the fun of destro.
    The main reason for haste is to increase ticks on Rof and to increase ember generation.
    Ur damage comes from chaos bolts my friends. When in ToT do you ever feel like u are ember starved ? I have constant ember generation. You have meta gem u have enough haste. Cast havoc combined with your incinerates. Monnaroths fury RoF and just spam chaos bolt!

    350k on primordius. Rof adds and chaos bolt.
    343k tortos heroic. Rof adds and chaos bolt.
    245k Megaera heroic. Rof adds and chaos bolt.

    Seeing the theme? No need for haste, play smart use havoc well Rof as much as possible and line bolts with trinkets.
    They are your tools for dps.
    I can give advice for any fight. Some are suited more than others but I never miss haste.
    I would link armoury bit trying affli ATM so no poit but I have che-ye TF upgraded and wooshlay upgraded

    Sorry for long post, just feel that people have been misguided with reading rather than playing.
    Ignore tier sets. They aren't needed.
    My point is if you aren't swimming in embers you aren't playing right. No ammount of haste will help.

  16. #1736
    This is what we call anecdotal evidence. I'm happy for you that you are performing well, but so are the other people at the top of the meters, and many of them have put some time into theorycrafting more deeply than "Ur damage comes from chaos bolts".

    You should have mentioned that your Lei Shen and Council ranks are not in fact on HC. Keep in mind that normal meters hardly matter, simply because of the fact that there are so, so few normal mode guilds. All the skilled players are 13/13 HC by now, provided they are actually actively raiding. Not to mention that you can pad meters into oblivion in normal mode because you can brute-force and ignore half the mechanics if you so choose.

    While your general ideas certainly have merit, people do things like theorycraft and simulations for a REASON - that reason being that you can't simply look at things and go "oh, obviously crit and mastery are best, they increase all your damage!". That's just incredibly shallow, not to mention quite unhelpful when faced with tricky gearing decisions. I'd also like to point out that haste does in fact increase all your damage also, at least in vacuo.

    Taking a model that works for you in your specific circumstances (with most fights on normal no less) and then go "Are you all dumb?" is the perfect example of what not to do. The entire reason we are having a discussion here is to provide people with advice on how to improve, a collective effort, if you so will, to get better. By definition that cannot be achieved by taking personal experience as an absolute; you have to look at things in the abstract. That's where math comes in, and the whole model of theorycrafting that's based on it.

    And nobody is suggesting to follow anything blindly; quite the contrary! There has been emphasis put many times on the fact that as helpful as theorycrafting and simulation may be, it MUST ALWAYS be looked at in the context of actual, in-game application. That may shift certain details, but it rarely changes the base paradigms.

    So please, don't just go spouting about how you have it all figured out and the rest of the world is just stupid - that's not just rude and insulting, it's short-sighted and narrow-minded. And it doesn't help anyone one bit.
    Last edited by Biomega; 2013-07-11 at 09:56 AM.

  17. #1737
    Quote Originally Posted by glenton View Post
    Sorry for long post, just feel that people have been misguided with reading rather than playing.
    Ignore tier sets. They aren't needed.
    My point is if you aren't swimming in embers you aren't playing right. No ammount of haste will help.
    You can't just assume that something that works good for you is the general best. In fact, it's been stated several times in this topic that haste is best on single target where you don't have access to endless embers, which are just the ones you linked.

    If you're gonna play destro with 2k haste on eg iron qon, you're gonna parse lower than someone with a haste heavier build. Having your particular build is also gonna make it hard to get a properly geared offspec.

  18. #1738
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    Quote Originally Posted by glenton View Post
    Sorry for long post, just feel that people have been misguided with reading rather than playing.
    Ignore tier sets. They aren't needed.
    My point is if you aren't swimming in embers you aren't playing right. No ammount of haste will help.
    You also only pulled a pathetic 117k dps on Twins normal. And Iron Qon Normal you only did 131k.

    This highlights exactly what people have been talking about in this thread. You are playing your spec to the extreme of its niche and succeeding there, but also completely failing when the fight does not spoon feed you a massive amount of embers. Biomega summed it up perfectly. Your evidence is anecdotal, and actually reflects what people have been saying here - with massive amounts of ember regen you can just go full mastery and succeed.

    Please, get off your high horse because you manage to top the dps meter on a few fights and stop trying to lecture us. As a warlock you should be top on pretty much every single encounter, using different specs and reforges to achieve that goal and aid your raid group.

    Also your helm is missing a meta gem, might want to fix that.

  19. #1739
    I personally play with crit aswell instead of haste, although to be fair ive been gearing away from haste because i anticipate it wont be that useful in 5.4, the thing with haste is this, it isint actually a dps increase over crit unless you are extremely good with rain of fire uptime. I can be when i try but normally i cant be bothered now that everything is on farm so i prefer the slower pace to the spec.

    If you want theoretical maximum then you go haste > crit > mastery (sup)

    If you arent bothered about that couple of thousand dps (cause really the difference even with perfect rain of fire uptime is that small) then you can play crit.

    http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/...Kurosak%C3%AD/

    I recently server changed so some of my ranks are no longer there.

    TL;DR, you can play with either secondary (haste or crit) as your second behind mastery and it really wont have that much impact on your dps (sup is still best regardless)
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  20. #1740
    It's not just theoratically. Keeping RoF up isn't hard, and not be 'bothered' is a strange thing imo. Plus, it's much easier to switch between specs with a healthy amount of haste.

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