1. #1841
    As an FYI to everyone, I will be updating this guide and by end of day on Saturday I hope to have it updated with my theorycrafting. I'll at the very least do a 5.2/3 -> 5.4 summary post here and append it to the bottom of the guide, if I don't get the whole post updated in time.

    Just so you guys can add it to your calendars

  2. #1842
    Thanks Brusalk! Though I suppose that writing "RIP Destro, we hardly knew ye" isn't too much work, is it...

  3. #1843
    Welp.

    All I can say is that don't be surprised if all of this stuff changes a few days into the patch when Blizzard figures out they screwed up big time.

    -.-

  4. #1844
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Welp.

    All I can say is that don't be surprised if all of this stuff changes a few days into the patch when Blizzard figures out they screwed up big time.

    -.-
    The scariest thing was GC's twitter post earlier this week, or maybe it was last week. Where he essentially asked, "Wait you guys actually want more embers?" I don't think at any point in the 5.4 ptr they were actually attempting to fix the ember issues, they were just trying to balance the patchwerk numbers in a way they liked, as well as figure out what they actually wanted to do with KJC and turning AV into AD.
    What are you willing to sacrifice?

  5. #1845
    GC seems about as out of touch with the realistic state of destro as senior members of the Vatican could instruct us on "twerking"...

    His apathy if not ignorance to what is holding the spec back and what is propping its niche up continue to cause issues in the class that will not be fixed by minor buffs as long as those mechanics remain unchanged. There seems to be a very strong undercurrent of "aff being fine IS justification for destro sucking" which should never be okay.

    I'm waiting for several months of bullship about how destro really is good and just nobody plays it which is why it appears low. That seems to be a party line for when they just don't care or are too wrapped up in other projects to turn out a better quality of product.

  6. #1846
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    GC seems about as out of touch with the realistic state of destro as senior members of the Vatican could instruct us on "twerking"...

    His apathy if not ignorance to what is holding the spec back and what is propping its niche up continue to cause issues in the class that will not be fixed by minor buffs as long as those mechanics remain unchanged. There seems to be a very strong undercurrent of "aff being fine IS justification for destro sucking" which should never be okay.

    I'm waiting for several months of bullship about how destro really is good and just nobody plays it which is why it appears low. That seems to be a party line for when they just don't care or are too wrapped up in other projects to turn out a better quality of product.
    Bolded for truth

    This is the exact response my guildies gave me when I was expressing how much of a mess destruction was in. "Shut up shiz, just pick one OP spec and play it, my god" was our ret's opinion on the matter!

    I just want destruction to be competitive with the other specs on single target so I can pick it because it's good not because I like it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, how much does destruction rely on the new 4 set? Is it mandatory, or can the spec function well enough without it.

    Asking because I'm on the loot council, and was planning on only grabbing two set for affliction main spec.

  7. #1847
    What baffles me is how they didn't even TRY to make things work. They took away RoF from the ST rotation, which is fine, then even went and *said* they were going to reimburse us for the embers... then did *nothing*. No experiments on the PTR, no ideas, no discussion. Just silence for months, and then a 15% buff to CB damage a week before the patch. WTF, seriously. And that's just the embers, and none of the other issues of Destro, like Backdraft scaling.

    Or maybe we're just pampered and privileged as warlocks, being used to having three viable, closely competitive specs while rogues and hunters derp around with spec imbalances ever since... ever...

  8. #1848
    TL;DR: 5.3 -> 5.4 Changes

    Current Theorycrafting Results. Please note that this is subject to change in the very near future as I experiment more!

    These results are based off of what we can expect gear wise at the beginning of the tier. These aren't T16H results.

    Single Target:
    • RoF is still worth casting on one target under high-haste situations, such as Sinister Primal/Haste Procs + Hero.
    • Burning Primal is now better (slightly) than Sinister Primal
    • The optimal rotation involves only using Incinerate under Backdraft or Hero/Haste Procs. Fill with Fel Flame otherwise.
    • GoSup/Serv/Sac are all roughly even
    • Mastery >= Crit >> Haste. This is the best reforging setup I've found.
    • Specific pet values are incoming, but I have not finished these yet.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Can't wait to hear the shitstorm on this one.

  9. #1849
    Burning Primal > Sinister? .....heads will roll ....Fel flame filler... need i say more. Very sad panda....But Keep up the good work!.


    Edit: Can we expect that whats likely to happen is...1-2 weeks into 5.4 they realize they made a mistake? I surely hope so, unless you feel there's some really great fights that destro can excel at ?
    Last edited by Rasukan; 2013-09-08 at 01:36 AM.
    "The plague of your kind will be purged from this world... And on that inevitable day, your wretched, stagnant soul will finally be mine"
    Armory

  10. #1850
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasukan View Post
    Burning Primal > Sinister? .....heads will roll ....Fel flame filler... need i say more. Very sad panda....But Keep up the good work!.


    Edit: Can we expect that whats likely to happen is...1-2 weeks into 5.4 they realize they made a mistake? I surely hope so, unless you feel there's some really great fights that destro can excel at ?
    My hunch is they'll nerf Fel Flame and call it a day.

  11. #1851
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    My hunch is they'll nerf Fel Flame and call it a day.
    Wow that's bleak
    "The plague of your kind will be purged from this world... And on that inevitable day, your wretched, stagnant soul will finally be mine"
    Armory

  12. #1852
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    My hunch is they'll nerf Fel Flame and call it a day.
    That's what makes me sad, Incinerate should be buffed by 10% instead of nerfing FF, a RoF buff of 15% more dmg if hit 2 or more targets would be good too.

    Actually, Destro IMO needs so many changes that I can even know where to beggining the QQ.

    But we both know that all this buffs never gonna happen.
    Chequer@Azralon
    T13: 8/8H - 35% nerfed
    T14: 6/6H - 4/6H - 4/4N
    T15: 11/13H
    T16: 14/14H - pre 4/4 nerf
    T17: Still Progressing @ Endgame-Azralon

  13. #1853
    Quote Originally Posted by Werst View Post
    GC seems about as out of touch with the realistic state of destro as senior members of the Vatican could instruct us on "twerking"...

    His apathy if not ignorance to what is holding the spec back and what is propping its niche up continue to cause issues in the class that will not be fixed by minor buffs as long as those mechanics remain unchanged. There seems to be a very strong undercurrent of "aff being fine IS justification for destro sucking" which should never be okay.

    I'm waiting for several months of bullship about how destro really is good and just nobody plays it which is why it appears low. That seems to be a party line for when they just don't care or are too wrapped up in other projects to turn out a better quality of product.
    I find this statement way too accurate about GC. Our whole class is broken... Well sorta. But As long as 2/3 or even 1/3 is working Blizz says that Everything is fine. people just dont play that spec enough because some Top ranked X Class player said it was bad.

    I was starting to enjoy destro Lock but looks like im going back to Demo! Which i enjoy too. because its like BM hunter but with DOTS and FURY and DEMONS and Green STUFF SHOOTING EVERYWHERE!

  14. #1854
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    TL;DR: 5.3 -> 5.4 Changes

    Current Theorycrafting Results. Please note that this is subject to change in the very near future as I experiment more!

    These results are based off of what we can expect gear wise at the beginning of the tier. These aren't T16H results.

    Single Target:
    • RoF is still worth casting on one target under high-haste situations, such as Sinister Primal/Haste Procs + Hero.
    • Burning Primal is now better (slightly) than Sinister Primal
    • The optimal rotation involves only using Incinerate under Backdraft or Hero/Haste Procs. Fill with Fel Flame otherwise.
    • GoSup/Serv/Sac are all roughly even
    • Mastery >= Crit >> Haste. This is the best reforging setup I've found.
    • Specific pet values are incoming, but I have not finished these yet.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Can't wait to hear the shitstorm on this one.
    Brusalk

    Rain of fire on 1 target, we will stack crit and mastery next tier it gets barely anything from crit (cause we 'never' use it for damage) and it gets nothing from mastery, both of these make incinerate and fel flame quite a bit stronger.

    Burning > sinister, they are very close for sure but you cant rule out the fact that the sinister can be extremely potent for immolate and also getting chaos bolt off under trinket procs.

    Can you give me some numbers to back those 2 statements up.

    People will take what you say here as gospel so make sure your info is actually backed up with more than an opinion.

    What i would ask is this, is it worth casting rain of fire on 1 target while moving in place of a fel flame.
    Heroic SoO progress 14/14
    Warlock armory - http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%AD/advanced

  15. #1855
    its just sad tho, burning primal diamond now slightly better than LMG, RoF still worth casting during high haste segments and incinerate only optimal to use during backdraft or high haste with fel flame as a filler otherwise, essentially what they tried to fix, they actually didnt fix and ended up making the spec worse. im inclined to believe like many of us here that blizz didnt even try to fix destro at all and that their approach to destro is that the other 2 specs are fine, so destro has a low priority especially when they start out by saying they will compensate for the removal of RoF and its ember generation and we havent seen any compensation close to revert the RoF ember generation, thing is that the ppl that want to play destro, should be able to do so without feeling like they are nerfing the raid while hitting like a wet noodle, not saying it should be OP as hell but atleast competative, im not particularly fond of destro but i prefer it over demo any day, i just want our class to be good playing any spec we want and shouldnt be forced into a spec that ppl might not like. oh well, it should be easy to rank as destro next patch, so few ppl will play it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    What i would ask is this, is it worth casting rain of fire on 1 target while moving in place of a fel flame.
    well logically speaking based on what brusalk wrote, yes if you have haste procs going, other wise not.
    Last edited by almara2512; 2013-09-08 at 03:23 AM.

  16. #1856
    Because its still a choice on single target, to make the question a bit clearer - Is it worth casting rain of fire while moving in place of a fel flame.

    I believe it probably is if you do not have int procs / crit procs / dark soul up.

    Actually its a bit bad of me to ask brusalk for numbers and not give some reasoning so think like this.

    If rain of fire was to give you 2 emberbits on single target it would break even with fel flame / incin assuming it crits (under int procs / 4 set / 2 set / dark soul it is most of the time), on single target ive rarely found rain of fire to actually give 2 embers per cast and extremely rarely its given 3 but it makes your ember regen unpredictable and annoying.

    Because of the above the only time while standing still i can imagine it to be worth casting rain of fire (assuming purely single target) is when you have no procs of anything and you get the procs up while the spell is going, this imo is not worth playing for and the potential damage gain from it is literally miniscule.

    Edit - Until proven otherwise aswell i would assume that the primal meta is better than the burning one because the proc chance on it is faaaaaaaaaaaaar to low, but it can be extremely good when it does proc.
    Last edited by AjayxD; 2013-09-08 at 03:25 AM.
    Heroic SoO progress 14/14
    Warlock armory - http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...C3%AD/advanced

  17. #1857
    I've been telling people that fel flame is technically slightly better than shadowbolt for demo under low haste until gcd cap next patch..didn't think to check for destro -.-.

  18. #1858
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    TL;DR: 5.3 -> 5.4 Changes

    Current Theorycrafting Results. Please note that this is subject to change in the very near future as I experiment more!

    These results are based off of what we can expect gear wise at the beginning of the tier. These aren't T16H results.

    Single Target:
    • RoF is still worth casting on one target under high-haste situations, such as Sinister Primal/Haste Procs + Hero.
    • Burning Primal is now better (slightly) than Sinister Primal
    • The optimal rotation involves only using Incinerate under Backdraft or Hero/Haste Procs. Fill with Fel Flame otherwise.
    • GoSup/Serv/Sac are all roughly even
    • Mastery >= Crit >> Haste. This is the best reforging setup I've found.
    • Specific pet values are incoming, but I have not finished these yet.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Can't wait to hear the shitstorm on this one.
    Crap. Now I'm gonna have to switch back to affl just like at the beginning of Cata after raiding in WotLK as Destro =)

  19. #1859
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    Because its still a choice on single target, to make the question a bit clearer - Is it worth casting rain of fire while moving in place of a fel flame.

    I believe it probably is if you do not have int procs / crit procs / dark soul up.

    Actually its a bit bad of me to ask brusalk for numbers and not give some reasoning so think like this.

    If rain of fire was to give you 2 emberbits on single target it would break even with fel flame / incin assuming it crits (under int procs / 4 set / 2 set / dark soul it is most of the time), on single target ive rarely found rain of fire to actually give 2 embers per cast and extremely rarely its given 3 but it makes your ember regen unpredictable and annoying.

    Because of the above the only time while standing still i can imagine it to be worth casting rain of fire (assuming purely single target) is when you have no procs of anything and you get the procs up while the spell is going, this imo is not worth playing for and the potential damage gain from it is literally miniscule.

    Edit - Until proven otherwise aswell i would assume that the primal meta is better than the burning one because the proc chance on it is faaaaaaaaaaaaar to low, but it can be extremely good when it does proc.
    Can you clarify what you're stating and what you're asking? I must've read your posts at least 20 times and I'm still not sure exactly what your stance is. I'm probably just really tired from theorycrafting hardcore since work yesterday.

  20. #1860
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    Can you clarify what you're stating and what you're asking? I must've read your posts at least 20 times and I'm still not sure exactly what your stance is. I'm probably just really tired from theorycrafting hardcore since work yesterday.
    My interpretation:

    Question -- Cast Rain of Fire while moving ? Statement -- No, don't cast Rain of Fire while moving.

    I'm not sure what he means by primal meta
    --
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Toy Train Set has been temporarily disabled.

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