1. #1861
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    My interpretation:

    Question -- Cast Rain of Fire while moving ? Statement -- No, don't cast Rain of Fire while moving.

    I'm not sure what he means by primal meta
    RoF over Fel Flame? Not unless you have a crap ton of Haste which really only comes about when you have Lust + a temp haste proc. (And that's something you'd be doing normally anyway, regardless of moving or not)

  2. #1862
    Assuming the mob stands in rof the entire time and we aren't shooting for even close to 100% uptime in a single target scenario why does having lots of haste make it more valuable? My understanding is the only thing haste does is shorten the duration of the spell.

  3. #1863
    Pretty sure it has breakpoints like a DoT, i.e. you gain extra ticks at certain intervals. You could probably think about the exact values, but given that you'd still need Lust + proc either way, I think just going by that makes the decision-making process simpler and the spell easier to use.

  4. #1864
    Ok to clarify -

    I have a problem with brusalk writing that rain of fire is still worth casting on 1 target in high haste situations because imo it actually is not

    Reasoning for the above is that you are stacking mastery and crit next tier which dont support the rain of fire playstyle anywhere near aswell as haste does.

    I also have a problem with brusalk writing that the burning meta is better than the sinister one because even though they are very close i still fail to see how the meta has all of a sudden lost so much value just because of a rain of fire change to single target.

    People will take what he says here pretty much as gospel so you have to be careful about the information you put out. If i get numbers to back the 2 above points then sure but until then that just sounds like opinion being spread as fact.

    To clarify before my question, i dont believe it worth to cast rain of fire at all if you have int procs / dark soul running at all, so my question is this - Is it worth casting rain of fire over the weakest possible fel flame you can have (I guess this actually doesnt matter if you are stationary or moving so you can scrap that part)
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  5. #1865
    Opinion and basic logic are two entirely different things.

    A large part of the value of the legendary meta came from the opener where you could get super-hasted RoFs out and drastically increase your ember gen at pull, therefore allowing more damage during dark soul. If you observe the graph of dps for the legendary meta and compare it to burning, it actually does a small amount less over the course of the latter half of the fight, the only actual dps gain you receive is in the opener where it causes a very large spike over burning.

    Rain of Fire was a dps gain when we stacked pure mastery in t14 over incinerate in certain cases. Simply put, it scales better with haste buffs (bloodlust/meta), it has a roughly equivelent DPET and Ember/ET, and the added benefit of being INSTANT!...meaning you can throw it out for damage between chaos bolts to prevent mana capping. Though that reason is largely gone now with fel flame being so good as a supplement to RoF for that role, the haste factor still remains. Incinerate gcd caps at something stupid like 3.8k haste with backraft up. Fel flame is automatically gcd capped. If any haste buff is active RoF is an easy choice. That being said, still waiting to find out exactly what he meant by 'specific situations.''

  6. #1866
    How is it confusing? RoF was the bulk of destro's single target haste scaling. So either you can use it when an incinerate would gcd cap IF your haste happens to be that high or you would just use FF/incinerate if your haste isn't above the gcd. Since haste is so wasted on destro atm its not unreasonable to expect the burning meta to overtake it. 3% crit damage bonus does scale with destro whereas the haste is often wasted....the fact that's a reality is a dev problem but nothing we can do but adapt to the reality. Obviously if its a close choice between the two and you ever play any other spec you would want to keep your legendary meta....do we really have to explain this part?

    If people take things as blanket gospel that the author stipulates are still in flux/testing then its on them for being stupid. Life lesson in that one.

  7. #1867
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    TL;DR: 5.3 -> 5.4 Changes

    Current Theorycrafting Results. Please note that this is subject to change in the very near future as I experiment more!

    These results are based off of what we can expect gear wise at the beginning of the tier. These aren't T16H results.

    Single Target:
    • RoF is still worth casting on one target under high-haste situations, such as Sinister Primal/Haste Procs + Hero.
    • Burning Primal is now better (slightly) than Sinister Primal
    • The optimal rotation involves only using Incinerate under Backdraft or Hero/Haste Procs. Fill with Fel Flame otherwise.
    • GoSup/Serv/Sac are all roughly even
    • Mastery >= Crit >> Haste. This is the best reforging setup I've found.
    • Specific pet values are incoming, but I have not finished these yet.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Can't wait to hear the shitstorm on this one.
    So what is the avg % dmg increase of using fel flame over inc?

  8. #1868
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    I also have a problem with brusalk writing that the burning meta is better than the sinister one because even though they are very close i still fail to see how the meta has all of a sudden lost so much value just because of a rain of fire change to single target.
    It lost that much value do to one of simc recent updates that isn't present in the latest 530-7 official release. If you'll compare that version to one compiled by yourself upto the newest revision you'll notice that it's uptime went from 24.61%(530-7) down to 12.71% after http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...detail?r=17498 revision as im guessing, being compiling to the newest one so not sure, but that means it lost around 5k dps of worth for destro due to that, not some awesome burning primal scaling. 24.30% down to 14.94% for demo, too, which makes it a ~1.5% gain over burning for demo instead of the previous ~3.5%. Not sure if the numbers/uptimes we have now are correct, though.

    I have no idea why would rof be better used when haste procs happen aswell, its dpet/ebpet doesn't change, as it doesn't gain ticks/gcd can't get below 1sec. Makes no sense other than "trying to squeeze another cb/sb before some procs run out" but thats more int+haste procs situation then haste alone, imo.
    Last edited by whi; 2013-09-08 at 05:31 PM.

  9. #1869
    Quote Originally Posted by gahddo View Post
    Rain of Fire was a dps gain when we stacked pure mastery in t14 over incinerate in certain cases. Simply put, it scales better with haste buffs (bloodlust/meta), it has a roughly equivelent DPET and Ember/ET, and the added benefit of being INSTANT!
    First of all, Rain of fire does less damage than incinerate when you dont have EXTREMELY high haste ratings - you arent going to have these in t16 and the difference is beyond minor when it does overtake, from a damage pov you will 'never' cast rain of fire.

    Second - Part of the reason it was cast is because it was more bang for the buck in 1 gcd, because you wont be under the GCD quite so often with incinerate this actually isint that much of an issue because incin scales well with crit and mastery (which you will be stacking)

    Third - Its ember regen is now roughly cut in half you will 'very rarely' get the same amount of embers you would from a crit incinerate and some of the time get what you would from incinerate hitting, to add to this a lot of the time you will get 0

    Fourth - Going oom is actually an issue when you start using rain of fire for ember regen because if you get unlucky you will cast it a few times get very little back and then screw your dps because of this (rarely happens but i have seen it)

    Fifth - No targetting circle

    The Meta gems - Im still going to hold out judgement before actually properly calling people wrong for deciding the burning is actually better, but like i said they are close for sure.
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  10. #1870
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    I would have guessed before that 5.4 destruction likely wasn't even worth playing, but this is even worse than I thought. The team that does the classes clearly hasn't given destruction more than a sideways glance.

  11. #1871
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    Third - Its ember regen is now roughly cut in half you will 'very rarely' get the same amount of embers you would from a crit incinerate and some of the time get what you would from incinerate hitting, to add to this a lot of the time you will get 0
    Not sure why you say that, it gives 2 emberbits per cast on average.
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  12. #1872
    I think a safe first night/week TLDR for destro is something like:
    *Grimoires are now about the same
    *Mast > crit >>> haste
    *LMG and Burning are close enough you can keep LMG if you ever play another spec or even might.
    *RoF isn't used rotationally but if you are GCD capping and/or need to move vs a stationary target its a viable option to use sparingly.
    *Get good at havoc/shadowburn cleave sniping since that is the only way the spec will ever look non horrible
    *Stack mast and crit and don't be afraid to use FF when backdraft isn't up.

    I think everything else at this point is probably just starting an argument. That said, its just disgraceful how the devs have left the spec and it should be almost comical how they justify it when live data starts rolling in. Then again they may just go /ostrich till 5.5 or 6.0 when they will have this grand revelation that everyone and their goat has known for months since 5.4 ptr started.

  13. #1873
    Quote Originally Posted by Hatelocker View Post
    Assuming the mob stands in rof the entire time and we aren't shooting for even close to 100% uptime in a single target scenario why does having lots of haste make it more valuable? My understanding is the only thing haste does is shorten the duration of the spell.
    You're correct, however it generates, on average 2 emberbits per cast which is more than Incinerate. It also does essentially the same damage over it's duration. The only thing prohibiting it's use is it's mana cost. While under Haste effects you get increased mana generation. The normal rotation with Fel Flame is mana neutral-ish, so introducing RoF all the time is a big loss due to going OOM. With Haste effects the increased mana regen offsets the cost and it's worth it to cast.

    I'm working on improving the RoF logic in simc to see if I can get an optimal config, but I know that RoF during Bloodlust is a very, very slight gain, and with more Haste it gets better.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Basically what I'm finding is that with low haste, cast Fel Flame. Cast Incinerate under Haste effects. If you'd normally cast Incinerate and it'd be under the GCD or very close to it, cast RoF instead if the target will be in the RoF for the full duration.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, I'm also finding that RoF is only worth it for Sup/Serv. For GoSac it's not worth it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Micke View Post
    So what is the avg % dmg increase of using fel flame over inc?
    3-4%. It's significant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    Ok to clarify -

    I have a problem with brusalk writing that rain of fire is still worth casting on 1 target in high haste situations because imo it actually is not
    Do you have data to back this statement up, or is this just your opinion? I can provide all the data in the world but that will take a bunch of time to formally write up and I'd rather continue with other theorycrafting to try and get this all done before Tuesday.

    Reasoning for the above is that you are stacking mastery and crit next tier which dont support the rain of fire playstyle anywhere near aswell as haste does.
    Yes, we're stacking the crap out of Mastery and Crit. How does that exclude RoF when you have a ton of Haste? I'm not saying use it all the time, just when you have temporary Haste buffs which can cause reduced benefit for Incinerate/Fel Flame.

    I also have a problem with brusalk writing that the burning meta is better than the sinister one because even though they are very close i still fail to see how the meta has all of a sudden lost so much value just because of a rain of fire change to single target.
    Rain of Fire was the largest portion of our Haste scaling. The benefit of Haste to casting our normal rotation and maintaining mana is nowhere near as beneficial point-for-point as getting increased damage and/or ember generation from Mastery and Crit.

    People will take what he says here pretty much as gospel so you have to be careful about the information you put out. If i get numbers to back the 2 above points then sure but until then that just sounds like opinion being spread as fact.
    I understand that, which is why I've basically not slept since I finished work on Friday so I could be thorough in my analysis. (Beyond unavoidable passing out at my computer)

    To clarify before my question, i dont believe it worth to cast rain of fire at all if you have int procs / dark soul running at all, so my question is this - Is it worth casting rain of fire over the weakest possible fel flame you can have (I guess this actually doesnt matter if you are stationary or moving so you can scrap that part)
    I'm not saying use RoF above all else, just when you have a ton of Haste and you would otherwise have wasted that Haste by casting a Fel Flame or a GCD capped Incinerate.

  14. #1874
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post

    Basically what I'm finding is that with low haste, cast Fel Flame. Cast Incinerate under Haste effects. If you'd normally cast Incinerate and it'd be under the GCD or very close to it, cast RoF instead if the target will be in the RoF for the full duration.

    Yes, we're stacking the crap out of Mastery and Crit. How does that exclude RoF when you have a ton of Haste? I'm not saying use it all the time, just when you have temporary Haste buffs which can cause reduced benefit for Incinerate/Fel Flame.

    I'm not saying use RoF above all else, just when you have a ton of Haste and you would otherwise have wasted that Haste by casting a Fel Flame or a GCD capped Incinerate.
    These 3 quotes are exactly my point.

    I personally dont believe even under haste effects that you will end up casting rain of fire over incinerate unless it is global capping and you would need to have poorly optimised gear for this to be the case.

    The following is assuming using incin when you have backdraft and fel flame when you do not.

    Incin vs Rain of fire (no LMG) - I dont believe that its worth it ever to use rain of fire

    Incin vs Rain of fire (LMG) - Worth it for a miniscule gain if you have all the haste procs and only if incinerate actually goes under the GCD

    Fel Flame vs Rain of fire (no LMG) - I dont think that its worth it but you could definetly make the arguement for it depending on your haste value

    Fel Flame vs Rain of fire (LMG) - I was originally asking this, is it worth it during the proc . . . probably.



    This is the statement i disagree with because its faaar to vague.

    RoF is still worth casting on one target under high-haste situations, such as Sinister Primal/Haste Procs + Hero.

    High haste situations would basically mean you have poorly optimised gear and you are using the sinister meta (which you are advocating against) and / or under bloodlust.

    I would rephrase that to Rof is still worth casting if it boils down to casting it or fel flame while you have a sinister proc and / or under bloodlust while not having int procs up.

    If you wanna get really fancy incinerate even without backdraft is still better than fel flame while you have int procs, but you can ofc cast fel flame while moving and incinerate you cannot.

    I think its great that you try to make a generalised guide for people to come and get an idea of how to play / maximise the spec, but i feel you need to be careful with your generalisation.
    Last edited by AjayxD; 2013-09-08 at 10:40 PM.
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  15. #1875
    Quote Originally Posted by Brusalk View Post
    3-4%. It's significant.
    Mind posting the apl changes that give that kind of gain/profile you're using? I'm seeing ~1% gain with my own.

  16. #1876
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    These 3 quotes are exactly my point.

    I personally dont believe even under haste effects that you will end up casting rain of fire over incinerate unless it is global capping and you would need to have poorly optimised gear for this to be the case.

    Incin vs Rain of fire (no LMG) - I dont believe that its worth it ever to use rain of fire

    Incin vs Rain of fire (LMG) - Worth it for a miniscule gain if you have all the haste procs above for incin only if incinerate actually goes under the GCD

    Fel Flame vs Rain of fire (no LMG) - I dont think that its worth it but you could definetly make the arguement for it depending on your haste value

    Fel Flame vs Rain of fire (LMG) - I was originally asking this, is it worth it during the proc . . . probably.
    Okay, then we've been miscommunicating somewhere because that's exactly what I stated in my original post..

  17. #1877
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    Has anyone mathed out how much of a damage increase the 4 set is for destro? I know it's pretty significant, but is the spec decent enough without it?

    I'll only be using it as offspec for favourable fights or if I get bored on farm, and as a 10 man raider, getting 4 set when 6 of our members are on the same token is pretty much impossible (my two set from this tier was all coined).

    Basically, how does destro in t15 gear compare to t16, and ultimately, is it worth playing right off the bat? I know there are people who will play it regardless, but as the raid leader of my small guild I feel I should always play the most optimal spec available on progress.



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  18. #1878
    First thanks to Brusalk, Zinnin, Evrelia, Gaddoh & all Warlock theorycrafters & simcraft developers, these must be very stressy long days for you.

    I will most probably switch to Affliction from Destruction as main spec and play destro as second spec.
    Therefore I will probably stack stats as follow, haste 9778 > mastery > crit.
    I do not intend to reforge between fights.

    -> How much of a dps loss - approximately - would it be when I switch to destruction, instead of using 5.4 destro-optimal Mastery >= Crit >> Haste?

    -> If Fel flame > incinerate in most cases then KJC will never be used? The choice will be between AD (boss fight) and MF (aoe fights)
    Last edited by Silmarieni; 2013-09-09 at 02:33 PM.

  19. #1879
    Quote Originally Posted by Silmarieni View Post
    -> If Fel flame > incinerate in most cases then KJC will never be used? The choice will be between AD (boss fight) and MF (aoe fights)
    It is my understanding that manno will pretty much never be used since the only spell affected is rain of fire. Extra crit chance on fnb (immo embers) and the ability to time ds with Procs or other cool downs as needed will outweigh the bonus to rain of fire. Kjc appears to be next to useless for destro (if you can still get chaos bolts out in bteween movement) and demo because of the buff to fel flame, and ad is likely better as affliction on movement fights unless you are moving for the vast majority of the encounter.
    Last edited by Numidia; 2013-09-09 at 02:51 PM.

  20. #1880
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    Kil'jaden's Cunning no longer reduces movement speed, and will now allow the Warlock to cast Incinerate, Malefic Grasp, and Shadow Bolt while moving.
    kjc isn't affecting chaosbolt, so it seems pretty useless 'cause to the higher priority of fel flame over incinerates.

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