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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Except that Rejuv is about 50% more stronger then Riptide (alot more when you use glyph for Riptide), doesn't have a cd and costs less mana. It is also a Resto Druid's most used spell I believe.

    Who are the people that are using Glyph of Riptide? It's the most useless glyph cause it weakens your one instant spell into something slightly better then Earthliving procs and costs a fuck-ton of mana in the process.

    And with your theory of 6k spirit. You can't possibly support glyph of Riptide. It's sucks too much mana and you need really high spirit to maintain it.
    I never claimed I used Glyph of riptide...in fact if you even read my post I gave a nice long rant why I hated it

    Im just saying I know people that DO use it and I weep for them....hell even EJ recommends it which makes me sad

  2. #202
    There are situations where Glyph of Riptide is usable. For example, Heroic Tortos. The mechanics of that fight mean that overhealing drops into the sub-25% range, and makes having 5+ Riptides rolling highly desirable. On Blade Lord, if you can time it properly and get a large number of Riptides out before it phases at 20% and sucks you into tornadoes, it can be relatively useful too. Those are the only 2 situations so far this expansion where I have even wanted to touch it.

  3. #203
    Lets say your healing comp is pally, disc and shaman. Would riptide not be okay then? Chain heal is not he best and usually in 10 man healing rain is good for the melee but what about ranged?

  4. #204
    3 healing 10 man with a Disc and Pally would be the worst possible comp for using glyphed Riptide. With that many absorbs in the raid, the extra HoT blanketing will end up being a huge amount of overheal and wasted mana. That particular comp is also the one that will make the Resto Shaman look the most useless.

  5. #205
    Scarab Lord Puupi's Avatar
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    If you are healing with a paladin and disc, you should just spamheal the tanks then and keep them alive. Priest and paladin will take care of the rest.
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by suffeli View Post
    If you are healing with a paladin and disc, you should just spamheal the tanks then and keep them alive. Priest and paladin will take care of the rest.
    Except that both disc priest and paladins are more effective tank healers, with more longevity and better cooldowns for single target healing. Unfortunately, they are superior at both tank and raid healing.

  7. #207
    If you are healing with a paladin and disc, then you should go dps, cause your healing isn't needed. Except on Megaera.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  8. #208
    Maybe they should change ancestral vigor to absorb 10% of your health instead of increasing it, or make a glyph for it maybe thoughts?

  9. #209
    My suggestions for fixes is this

    1) Change mana tide....its quite obvious from reading this thread that there are a lot of Shamans feel so useless that they must stack spirit because they think it helps more at a great cost of thier own personal throughput. While I still disagree, its not as if I dont understand the argument. My suggestion is to change mana tide to increase all raid members spirit by 200% instead of basing it on the shaman's spirit. That way if your healers want more mana from mana tide, they need to carry more spirit and for the Shaman, he can take as much as he feels he needs. Sacrificing througput to be a mana battery is not a fun choice and it seems mana tide is the culprit. Especially in 25 mans.

    2) Change Glyph of riptide to reduce the initial heal by 60% instead of 90% or whatever number they need to see it get more use without making it feel mandatory.

    3) Our level 90 talents need some tweaking. Right now PE is by far and away the best choice as it provides the best throughtput gain while also being an effective dps cooldown if you choose also. My suggestion is to change Elemental blast so that it can be cast on friendly targetsas well for a healing amount equal to something in between healing wave and greater healing wave while retaining the buff snd cooldown.

    4) Unleashed fury should work with healing rain. Bring it up to a 50% buff

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    My suggestions for fixes is this

    1) Change mana tide....its quite obvious from reading this thread that there are a lot of Shamans feel so useless that they must stack spirit because they think it helps more at a great cost of thier own personal throughput. While I still disagree, its not as if I dont understand the argument. My suggestion is to change mana tide to increase all raid members spirit by 200% instead of basing it on the shaman's spirit. That way if your healers want more mana from mana tide, they need to carry more spirit and for the Shaman, he can take as much as he feels he needs. Sacrificing througput to be a mana battery is not a fun choice and it seems mana tide is the culprit. Especially in 25 mans.

    2) Change Glyph of riptide to reduce the initial heal by 60% instead of 90% or whatever number they need to see it get more use without making it feel mandatory.

    3) Our level 90 talents need some tweaking. Right now PE is by far and away the best choice as it provides the best throughtput gain while also being an effective dps cooldown if you choose also. My suggestion is to change Elemental blast so that it can be cast on friendly targetsas well for a healing amount equal to something in between healing wave and greater healing wave while retaining the buff snd cooldown.

    4) Unleashed fury should work with healing rain. Bring it up to a 50% buff
    1. Horrible thing to do and to want. Not every shaman is actually going the high spirit route anyways.
    Currently the blood legion ones are sitting at 18000 spirit while Luumis is still at 13000 area. It really just depends on your role in the fight.

    2. The riptide one I can agree to. Even though i have found some uses for the glyph in fights and some fights i dont. Blizzard did make the glyphs very changeable and so far i change them quite often.

    3. The problem with Elemental blast is they would have to change it completely to make it desirable for resto. Most of the time I would want a Healing buff for a longer amount of time that Elemental blast gives while not having to hope i get the buff I would really really need at that time. If anything they would need to make the buff it gives last longer and prbly give less to make it not op but something we would use.
    With further thought it seems doing this would make it a spell to cast before you use healing rain so therefore just being a like Unleashed.

    4. Plz do so.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    My suggestions for fixes is this

    1) Change mana tide....its quite obvious from reading this thread that there are a lot of Shamans feel so useless that they must stack spirit because they think it helps more at a great cost of thier own personal throughput. While I still disagree, its not as if I dont understand the argument. My suggestion is to change mana tide to increase all raid members spirit by 200% instead of basing it on the shaman's spirit. That way if your healers want more mana from mana tide, they need to carry more spirit and for the Shaman, he can take as much as he feels he needs. Sacrificing througput to be a mana battery is not a fun choice and it seems mana tide is the culprit. Especially in 25 mans.

    2) Change Glyph of riptide to reduce the initial heal by 60% instead of 90% or whatever number they need to see it get more use without making it feel mandatory.

    3) Our level 90 talents need some tweaking. Right now PE is by far and away the best choice as it provides the best throughtput gain while also being an effective dps cooldown if you choose also. My suggestion is to change Elemental blast so that it can be cast on friendly targetsas well for a healing amount equal to something in between healing wave and greater healing wave while retaining the buff snd cooldown.

    4) Unleashed fury should work with healing rain. Bring it up to a 50% buff
    1. It probably makes sense to have Mana Tide either be a static regen amount like Innervate, Shadowfiend, Divine Plea and Mana Tea rather than be the only regen cooldown that scales with gear. I would rather just do that and remove the interaction with Spirit. However, you would be hurting Shaman viability by making this change, because you remove the ability for them to specifically gear around being primarily a mana battery. Not sure that this is a good thing given the current state of the class.

    2. Even a 40% spammable Riptide direct heal is probably too strong in PvP. On top of that, it doesn't really address the issue of why the glyph is bad. The glyph is bad primarily because the HoT portion of Riptide is too weak for it to be used like Druids use Rejuvenation. For the glyph to be a viable means of spread AoE healing, the HoT portion needs to be significantly bufffed.

    3/4 - The entire L90 talent tier is a mess for Resto. The design of the Priest and Paladin L90 talents should be a model for how a hybrid healing/DPS class talents should be built. Elemental Blast will never be viable without a healing component, I agree. However, there is no way that you can have Unleashed Fury buff healing Rain by 50% (effectively by 80%). That would make the talent 100% mandatory for 25 man raiding, and the only right way to play to always take Unleashed Fury and line it up with Healing Rain, even if only 4 targets will be in the HR.

    A better change for Unleashed Fury would be to put the Unleashed Fury buff on the Shaman casting it, not on the target of the ULE. That way, you aren't locked to a target that often ends up getting topped before you can execute a ULE-GHW or ULE-HS combination.

  12. #212
    I feel like most of you are waiting to get numbers on the 4 piece bonus set, and that without it we are pretty bad, a lot of us may never even see the new 4 piece, so were not good without the 4 piece, I'm sitting at il490 and I heal at around 45k to 55k hps but only if I utilize healing tide totem which I think isn't right, let me know your thoughts

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by jjayjay25 View Post
    I feel like most of you are waiting to get numbers on the 4 piece bonus set, and that without it we are pretty bad, a lot of us may never even see the new 4 piece, so were not good without the 4 piece, I'm sitting at il490 and I heal at around 45k to 55k hps but only if I utilize healing tide totem which I think isn't right, let me know your thoughts
    The 4 piece bonus set bonus is pretty terrible. Looking at my logs, it maths out to less than a 1% healing increase. With more single target healing, it will be a little better. However, the reality is, if you focus your healing more on single target, your overall output will probably decrease even more than you gain from the set bonus. Our 2 piece is pretty strong (3-4% increased output and in line with other healers), but our 4 piece is probably the worst 4 piece set bonus of any of the healers.

    Don't even bother holding out hope for the 4 piece to make things better; if anything we will lose even more ground relative to the other healing specs when we all have 4 piece.

  14. #214
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjayjay25 View Post
    I feel like most of you are waiting to get numbers on the 4 piece bonus set, and that without it we are pretty bad, a lot of us may never even see the new 4 piece, so were not good without the 4 piece, I'm sitting at il490 and I heal at around 45k to 55k hps but only if I utilize healing tide totem which I think isn't right, let me know your thoughts
    A raid that prioritizes giving us 4-pc over any other class that is sitting on our token is a fail raid at this point anyway. So unless we get lucky on rolls or LFR, we shouldn't even be seeing 4-pc anytime soon.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    1. It probably makes sense to have Mana Tide either be a static regen amount like Innervate, Shadowfiend, Divine Plea and Mana Tea rather than be the only regen cooldown that scales with gear. I would rather just do that and remove the interaction with Spirit. However, you would be hurting Shaman viability by making this change, because you remove the ability for them to specifically gear around being primarily a mana battery. Not sure that this is a good thing given the current state of the class.

    2. Even a 40% spammable Riptide direct heal is probably too strong in PvP. On top of that, it doesn't really address the issue of why the glyph is bad. The glyph is bad primarily because the HoT portion of Riptide is too weak for it to be used like Druids use Rejuvenation. For the glyph to be a viable means of spread AoE healing, the HoT portion needs to be significantly bufffed.

    3/4 - The entire L90 talent tier is a mess for Resto. The design of the Priest and Paladin L90 talents should be a model for how a hybrid healing/DPS class talents should be built. Elemental Blast will never be viable without a healing component, I agree. However, there is no way that you can have Unleashed Fury buff healing Rain by 50% (effectively by 80%). That would make the talent 100% mandatory for 25 man raiding, and the only right way to play to always take Unleashed Fury and line it up with Healing Rain, even if only 4 targets will be in the HR.

    A better change for Unleashed Fury would be to put the Unleashed Fury buff on the Shaman casting it, not on the target of the ULE. That way, you aren't locked to a target that often ends up getting topped before you can execute a ULE-GHW or ULE-HS combination.
    1) I don't Mind Mana tide scaling with Spirit, It makes it more interesting, the other healers Mana cooldowns are boring. I don't want to be like them, I want different, doesn't have to be better, just different. However, In its Current form, It is probably OP, especially in 25 mans for reasons that have been well documented. To Recap, My Suggestion for Mana tide is Instead of Granting your entire raid 200% of the Casters Spirit, Instead Increase the entire raids Spirit by 300% for 15 seconds. This would be of No Net Loss in mana Gained or Lost for the Shaman casting the totem, While Being a Nerf for those healers that Are Not Carrying Any Spirit. The Problem with Mana Tide In its current form, Is that while you are crippling your own throughput in the name of your raid, the Other 5 healers in your 25 man are allowed to stack even less Spirit and Heal even more inefficiently. This gives the appearance of the gap between the Shaman And the other healers being even wider than it could have been, then if the shaman was allowed to Carry Spirit to Taste, and then go for throughput thereafter, and your other healers having to carry more spirit (since theyre not crutching to your mana tide), in lieu of throughput.

    This problem is only going to get worse as gear gets even better and better, and spirit becomes more and more available, already we are seeing Shaman approaching 20k, while mana Pools of course, are fixed. In fact Mana Pools have only roughly doubled Since Cata, while Players are carrying roughly 4x the spirit they could acheive in cata, with each point of spirit returning around the same amount of mana they did in Cata as well

    It is NOT an Interesting Choice to stack spirit Instead of throughput stats in the name of being a mana battery to the other 5 healers. IM A HEALER AND I WANT TO HEAL. Being a Mana Battery is Bullshit. I dont want to Justify My raid spot simply because Im a resto shaman and I can sit in some corner and cast mana tide and not meaningfully contribute otherwise. I want to Justify My raid spot by Fucking Healing my ass Off and Competing with my other healers and otherwise playing well.

    With My suggestion for Mana Tide it takes an Unfun choice off the Table. If your other healers want to Benefit more from your Mana tide they Still can, they Just have to stack more Spirit themselves to do so! I feel that this change would even give your healers one more interesting choice to make as well (sacrifice a little throughput for more mana). The Choice should not Be the Burden of the Shaman Alone, it should be a choice made by each individual healer to determine the level of spirit they need to play well given all the tools they have that are available.

    Until this change is Made, Resto Shamans will continue to show up and being behind all the other healers, and its No wonder, given all the Dynamics. Once this change is Made and now Shaman are free to stack as they Please for their own sake, and your other healers are forced to adjust. ONLY THEN can we actually begin to collect data and see how bad the problem actually is. I'm betting that Mana tide is going to turn out to be one of the biggest balance issues we have when all is said and done

    2) You make a good Point about PvP when you say a 40% spammable riptide would be too powerful. I dont really know what the sweet spot would be to make Glyph of riptide go from being "sucks" to "Interesting, but not mandatory". Maybe 40% with an increased Mana Cost? Maybe 30%? 20? Who knows, this one is for the devs to figure out

    3)I think we can Agree that Making Elemental Blast a Hybrid Damage/Heal depending on how you choose to use it for that particular cooldown(not unlike Holy Prism or Light's Hammer for Pallies) would Make it an interesting choice thats Not OP and quite balanced With PE. It's such an Elegant no brainer solution that I'm puzzled why this hasn't been implemented yet.

    As far as UF goes, I think I was slightly Misunderstood, It should make healing rain go from the 30% that UE currently is to 50%. I agree 80% is too powerful haha. The Rest of its functionality is fine, and the slight Bump in healing rain combined with its current functions should make it balanaced with the other 2 choices (I know From my end I'd have a tough time choosing which one of the 3 to be honest)

  16. #216
    Herald of the Titans Irisel's Avatar
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    Straight from the US forum thread about this same subject, that is getting traction...

    Some Ideas:

    • Redesign Manatide: Nerf the potency of Manatide Totem by about half, and have the raid-wide effect be %-based. Add an additional effect that only applies to the casting Shaman, scaling with spirit as it does now. Numbers balanced to be roughly the same as they are now, giving the Shaman more personal bonus from MTT - Relieve Resto's role as a mana battery and preventing guilds from forcing spirit-stacking.
    • Chain Heal Glyph baseline, with no CD.
    • Replace old Glyph with new one: Removes/Reduces the penalty per jump of Chain Heal, add 4 second CD.
    • Buff Chain Heal by 25%, and remove the synergy with Riptide (it makes the bonus feel mandatory, not rewarding).
    • Increase the chance to proc Resurgence per jump of CH -reward maximum/proper usage.
    • Allow Chain Heal to benefit from Ancestral Awakening.

    More ideas:

    • Add new spell that Shares CD with Healing Rain. AoE heals allies within 30 yard radius of the Shaman for 10 seconds, at about 50% less healing than the output of Healing Rain, healing allies furthest away for more. Healing Rain should be considered the go to spell for stack phases.
    • Allow Earthliving overheals to apply a absorb/bubble effect.

    Rule of Thumb: If the healer's HPS is higher than your DPS, you're doing it wrong.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Irisel View Post
    Straight from the US forum thread about this same subject, that is getting traction...
    Seems like people are stuck back in sunwell.

  18. #218
    Some Ideas:

    Redesign Manatide: Nerf the potency of Manatide Totem by about half, and have the raid-wide effect be %-based. Add an additional effect that only applies to the casting Shaman, scaling with spirit as it does now. Numbers balanced to be roughly the same as they are now, giving the Shaman more personal bonus from MTT - Relieve Resto's role as a mana battery and preventing guilds from forcing spirit-stacking.
    Chain Heal Glyph baseline, with no CD.
    Replace old Glyph with new one: Removes/Reduces the penalty per jump of Chain Heal, add 4 second CD.
    Buff Chain Heal by 25%, and remove the synergy with Riptide (it makes the bonus feel mandatory, not rewarding).
    Increase the chance to proc Resurgence per jump of CH -reward maximum/proper usage.
    Allow Chain Heal to benefit from Ancestral Awakening.


    More ideas:

    Add new spell that Shares CD with Healing Rain. AoE heals allies within 30 yard radius of the Shaman for 10 seconds, at about 50% less healing than the output of Healing Rain, healing allies furthest away for more. Healing Rain should be considered the go to spell for stack phases.
    Allow Earthliving overheals to apply a absorb/bubble effect.
    I weep for our community, I agree with the guy that said we want to go back to sunwell, anyway

    On Mana Tide Totem: It needs to be re-worked clearly, I dont know where the idea came from to give a % to raid, but give more to the shaman based on spirit and whatnot, but thats way too complicated. Simply Have it Increase Spirit for all raid members by 300%. Net change for Shaman = Zero, Net change for your other healers=Varies depending on how much they want to benefit from manatide. This essentially will turn Mana Tide into Like a Healing Skull Banner or Stormlash totem, a nice small but not game breaking bonus

    On Chain heal: I pretty much hate every idea thats been suggested. I like the Bonus with riptide, it feels rewarding when you do it right, doesnt feel like a Penalty at all. I think Chain heal's Problem is that it doesn't really fill any Niche in our toolkit. Its slow, and the Jump heals are weak Maybe instead of all these convoluted buffs for chain heal which would bring back the sunwell days, perhaps do something Dramatic Like Reworking chain Heal to be the Resto Chain Lightning I.E. Make it like an AoE Healing surge, A Fast AoE heal that Doesnt have the Jump Penalty, but Increase the mana cost (maybe slightly less than double?). You can then put chain heal on the same tier of resurgence as HW and GHW to compensate somewhat but not completely. This would give us some good synergy with Ascendance at a cost of some mana, but at the same time It gives us some fast effective AoE healing, a niche we dont have outside of HTT. Leave the Jump range as is, and leave the glyph alone, its not completely useless anyway.

    The Idea of Earthliving Turning Overhealing into an absorb is interesting. It would be a self nerf to our mastery though, be careful when youre asking for absorbs!

  19. #219
    Herald of the Titans Irisel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    Maybe instead of all these convoluted buffs for chain heal which would bring back the sunwell days
    Having every suggestion would totally make Chain Heal the same as Sunwell or ICC, I don't think anyone wants us to do 60% healing done as Chain Heal, but one or a few of the suggestions could surely make our bread and butter, signature healing spell less like moldy bread, and more like buttery french toast.

    edit: preferably with REAL maple syrup.
    Last edited by Irisel; 2013-03-18 at 04:53 AM.

    Rule of Thumb: If the healer's HPS is higher than your DPS, you're doing it wrong.

  20. #220
    I don't think that anyone is suggesting that we go back to the ICC and earlier days of spamming nothing but Chain Heal. The problem is, the spell is nearly useless and does not properly serve it's actual intended purpose in our healing toolkit. I think the biggest problem with it is - it doesn't heal for enough. The range jump may be an issue in 10 man, but isn't really an issue in 25 man. The problem is, even if you are able to get it cast on a target with Riptide that will chain to all 4 targets, it doesn't heal for enough to be worth the effort or the mana most of the time.

    Chain Heal needs to be good enough to be a viable "filler" when AoE healing. It can't overpower Healing Rain, Riptide or HST, because they are on CDs, and if you let a spammable spell be better than a spell with a cooldown, you just won't use the spell with the cooldown. However, it needs to be good enough to fill the Prayer of Healing/Holy Radiance role in our toolkit, instead of being something you only cast under perfect conditions (including low health targets) or when you have excess mana to burn. It needs to be meaningful and useful, and it isn't even remotely either of those right now.

    The last thing we need is more absorb mechanics added to the game. One of the huge reasons healer balance is so terrible this expansion is because Blizzard let absorbs get out of control with Disc/Paladin Mastery. If anything, they need to nerf the hell out of current absorb mechanics.

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