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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Irisel View Post
    Having every suggestion would totally make Chain Heal the same as Sunwell or ICC, I don't think anyone wants us to do 60% healing done as Chain Heal, but one or a few of the suggestions could surely make our bread and butter, signature healing spell less like moldy bread, and more like buttery french toast.

    edit: preferably with REAL maple syrup.

    couldn't have said it better myself. =3

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    Seems like people are stuck back in sunwell.
    really? care to explain why? because shaman spammed CH back then? If you actually played back then, you would know that shaman had exactly 3 heals and LHW and HW sucked, even when downranking, thats why resto goto heal was CH. Our healing arsenal tripled in the meantime, meanwhile raids went from stacking to all kinds of positional requirements. Couple that with the fact, that with mechanics that dont work with CH or work only in limited potency in contrast to other heals and anyone can see CH is never going to be our default goto heal, even if half of those ideas were implemented at the same time.

  3. #223
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    really? care to explain why? because shaman spammed CH back then? If you actually played back then, you would know that shaman had exactly 3 heals and LHW and HW sucked, even when downranking, thats why resto goto heal was CH. Our healing arsenal tripled in the meantime, meanwhile raids went from stacking to all kinds of positional requirements. Couple that with the fact, that with mechanics that dont work with CH or work only in limited potency in contrast to other heals and anyone can see CH is never going to be our default goto heal, even if half of those ideas were implemented at the same time.
    Well, it's hardly spam, when you're using 3 ranks of a spell, choosing wisely which size of a heal you require for the currently incoming damage. While all of those spells are called "chain heal" they were essentially AoE-heal versions of today's Healing Wave and Greater Healing Wave. You still had several keybinds for it. So... anybody who says that shamans only spammed chain heal back then or were a one-button-class probably hasn't played before 3.0.

    Also, chain heal was your go-to spell for even single-target healing! Because everything else we had was horribly weak and costly in comparison. Today's chain heal has such low healing even on the first target that nobody in their right mind would prioritize using it over a HS or GHW. (And let's not get into how horrible this RT+CH combination is. That t-set bonus was debatable enough, and we got it baked in... *sigh* When someone has RT, the cases in which healing them with CH on top of it is actually a bonus, are far and rare. Mostly, your first CH-hit goes into high overhealing due to RT's initial tick healing quite nicely already unless you've crippled it via glyph. If you ask me, CH needs to either not drop off or actually RAISE its healing value after the first target so as to reward you for aiming at a cluster of people. Still, we need a larger jump range to make the spell viable as an AoE heal. Oh Blizzard, how horribly you dared lie to us when you said that increasing the jump range wasn't technically possible and then threw that glyph at us that did just what you said wasn't possible at all. The shame!)

    The mere notion that stomination could want to draw parallels between Sunwell's chain heal and today's chain heal makes my mind boggle.
    Last edited by Seriss; 2013-03-18 at 10:34 AM.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Seriss View Post
    Well, it's hardly spam, when you're using 3 ranks of a spell, choosing wisely which size of a heal you require for the currently incoming damage. While all of those spells are called "chain heal" they were essentially AoE-heal versions of today's Healing Wave and Greater Healing Wave. You still had several keybinds for it. So... anybody who says that shamans only spammed chain heal back then or were a one-button-class probably hasn't played before 3.0.

    Also, chain heal was your go-to spell for even single-target healing! Because everything else we had was horribly weak and costly in comparison. Today's chain heal has such low healing even on the first target that nobody in their right mind would prioritize using it over a HS or GHW. (And let's not get into how horrible this RT+CH combination is. That t-set bonus was debatable enough, and we got it baked in... *sigh* When someone has RT, the cases in which healing them with CH on top of it is actually a bonus, are far and rare. Mostly, your first CH-hit goes into high overhealing due to RT's initial tick healing quite nicely already unless you've crippled it via glyph. If you ask me, CH needs to either not drop off or actually RAISE its healing value after the first target so as to reward you for aiming at a cluster of people. Still, we need a larger jump range to make the spell viable as an AoE heal. Oh Blizzard, how horribly you dared lie to us when you said that increasing the jump range wasn't technically possible and then threw that glyph at us that did just what you said wasn't possible at all. The shame!)

    The mere notion that stomination could want to draw parallels between Sunwell's chain heal and today's chain heal makes my mind boggle.
    He wasn't trying to compare today's Chain Heal to the Sunwell days, what he was trying to say, which I agree with is that if all of the community's suggestions were implemented for chain heal, it would bring us back to the sunwell days of spamming nothing but chain heal

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    He wasn't trying to compare today's Chain Heal to the Sunwell days, what he was trying to say, which I agree with is that if all of the community's suggestions were implemented for chain heal, it would bring us back to the sunwell days of spamming nothing but chain heal
    Yes, obviously those suggestions were supposed to be all at once... Did you really think shaman community demands CH to be 25% stronger, double the jump rannge, no reduction of heal per jump, increased resurgence proc and working with AA all at the same time?

    No, he just doesnt want to use CH more than couple times per bossfight, even if the CH should be the go-to heal depending on mechanics and anyone who would disagree with him is stuck in SWP CH era.

  6. #226
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    He wasn't trying to compare today's Chain Heal to the Sunwell days, what he was trying to say, which I agree with is that if all of the community's suggestions were implemented for chain heal, it would bring us back to the sunwell days of spamming nothing but chain heal
    Even in Sunwell, you could not maintain spamming a max-rank chain heal (which is the only thing that we have today). In the absence of HoTs, you kept casting rank 2 during moderate damage, stepped it up to rank 4 for heavier damage, and during short periods of really heavy stuff, you went rank 5. And nobody said that we want a supercheap CH of which all 4 jumps heal for 100k each so as to make it a more effective single-target heal than any other spell. Nobody.

    We don't want to spam chain heal. Just like a priest shouldn't want to spam PoH or CoH, just like a paladin shouldn't be spamming Holy Radiance (or has the name changed? I'm not too firm on what all that stuff is called ^^), etc etc. But casting it only once and then having it on CD just isn't enough. If we need to AoE heal, and CH is our only tool that even remotely matches the description of AoE-healing a non-HR-huddling raid, we need the option to cast it a few times until it is no longer required.

    All we want and need is a hammer for that nail. Stop buffing that screwdriver. It doesn't help when dealing with a nail.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    I'll clarify. At this time blood legion is using a shaman for every heroic encounter so far and did use 2 for ji'kun. You would think that in a guild racing for world first they wouldnt use classes that are useless? So it would seem they find the shamans useful because im sure thier roster is able to use other healers if they so wished.
    They use one shaman in their roster, which is stacking crit (18k+ UNBUFFED) because he is being used as a mana battery for the rest of the healers.

    That should tell you how good we are now...

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 02:36 PM ----------

    We need a spread AoE heal. Glyph of chain heal sucks, leaving us with no alternative but single target healing the spread raid (who would have guessed that we, the once best AoE healers, would end being nothing more than an old Paladin while raid healing...).

    I dont know why they sent us from the best AoE raid healing to the worse one, it feels as if they are toying with us.

  8. #228
    All of the guilds racing for World First benched their Resto Shamans for a few bosses, most notably Dark Animus (a fight that has been used as an example on EU Shaman forums) but there have been a few others.

    You don't bench a healer unless and until they aren't viable or not doing enough healing on an encounter. Don't come in with the skill the argument, these are the best players in WoW.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 05:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    We need a spread AoE heal. Glyph of chain heal sucks, leaving us with no alternative but single target healing the spread raid (who would have guessed that we, the once best AoE healers, would end being nothing more than an old Paladin while raid healing...).

    I dont know why they sent us from the best AoE raid healing to the worse one, it feels as if they are toying with us.
    They aren't toying with us. The balance this expansion has been extremely poor overall, not just in healing. Look at tanking, Warriors are doing half the amount of damage Bears are and Monks are doing 8%-10% more then Bears. Arcane and Aff were 10% ahead of the 3rd ranked dps.

    In all honesty, I think Blizz has no any idea what to do with us anymore. They ran out of ideas and of course there is the retarded arguments of us being OP in PvP, even though people have no idea about PvP and the second one, my personal favorite, we bring too much utility so it's ok for us to do 25-40% less healing then others, even though Holy Paladins and both Priests bring far better, more useful and more flexible utility.

    I COMPLETELY agree with your sentiment we need another AoE heal and not just a buff to CH. Buff to CH is needed but it won't change anything. We will still be poor compared to others. In order for us to become competitive, Blizz needs to buff the effective range of Ascendance to 40 yards (it's 20 yards atm) and give us another AoE heal with a cd similar to Cascade or give us another AoE cd similar to HTT and Ascendance.

    I want another cd, it fits well with our cd based healing style, but a buff to CH is also needed.
    Last edited by Waterisbest; 2013-03-18 at 06:00 PM.
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    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    He wasn't trying to compare today's Chain Heal to the Sunwell days, what he was trying to say, which I agree with is that if all of the community's suggestions were implemented for chain heal, it would bring us back to the sunwell days of spamming nothing but chain heal
    Close. It would have us doing our Healing raid/ Chainheal off the riptide target/ with hst down on cd. Hs HW Ghw would be used a lot less. This would also make us foolish for being anything but the raid healer.

    Currently I run the spirit crit build while maintaining a focus on keeping the tank at 100% hp as much as I can. This would undoubtly make my hps lower than my other healers but I still played a very important part. They got to mainly focus on the raid while barely having to worry about the tank as much. With the spirit i am able keep heals going to the tank and providing mana for my other healers to keep the raid alive. Boss dies. Guild progresses. Job is done. Hurray loot.

    Sadly some people heal with the mentality of ME ME ME before GUILD GUILD GUILD.

    And no Sarevokcz I still use chain heal when i need to ( in fact it was 9.1% of my heals with Healing rain Tide HST and riptide beating it..
    Did I top meters? No, But i was "competitive" with a holy priest. And I did survive the fight longer to out heal 3 other healers.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    Close. It would have us doing our Healing raid/ Chainheal off the riptide target/ with hst down on cd. Hs HW Ghw would be used a lot less. This would also make us foolish for being anything but the raid healer.

    Currently I run the spirit crit build while maintaining a focus on keeping the tank at 100% hp as much as I can. This would undoubtly make my hps lower than my other healers but I still played a very important part. They got to mainly focus on the raid while barely having to worry about the tank as much. With the spirit i am able keep heals going to the tank and providing mana for my other healers to keep the raid alive. Boss dies. Guild progresses. Job is done. Hurray loot.

    Sadly some people heal with the mentality of ME ME ME before GUILD GUILD GUILD.

    And no Sarevokcz I still use chain heal when i need to ( in fact it was 9.1% of my heals with Healing rain Tide HST and riptide beating it..
    Did I top meters? No, But i was "competitive" with a holy priest. And I did survive the fight longer to out heal 3 other healers.
    The point isn't ME ME ME v. GUILD GUILD GUILD, the point is that any of the other 5 healers can do a better job at any of the tasks you outlined (besides holy priests tank healing). Being a mana battery is just a stupid role, we aren't playing Vanilla wow where we have classes that just buff people. The point is that when a fight has spread mechanics and throughput requirements we flat out suck and that's not fun.

  11. #231
    You are not forced to play as the mana battery. Luumis is doing just fine with 13k spirit.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    Close. It would have us doing our Healing raid/ Chainheal off the riptide target/ with hst down on cd. Hs HW Ghw would be used a lot less. This would also make us foolish for being anything but the raid healer.
    We should not be pushed into using HW, HS and GHW as much as we currently are. They are designed to be single target heals and be used when you want to actually tank heal or burst up a single target. You should not feel like you have to use when your goal is to AoE heal because the actual AoE healing options in your toolkit do not properly do the job they are intended to do.

    No other healer is forced to regularly use single target direct heals outside of tank healing. Priests and Druids never really touch their "Healing Wave" equivalent, and only use their Flash Heal equivalent for its intended purpose - emergency single target heal. Mistweavers don't really even have a single target healing model. Even Pallies, who are supposed to be built around single target healing, mostly spam Holy Radiance between Holy Shocks to max out Eternal Flame/Light of Dawn.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    You are not forced to play as the mana battery. Luumis is doing just fine with 13k spirit.
    13k spirit is aceptable, yes. 6k, like someone is saying in this very thread, is not and is just spreading false information.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    You are not forced to play as the mana battery. Luumis is doing just fine with 13k spirit.
    He is using the exact same gearing strategy/stat priorities as the 2 Blood Legion resto shaman (Spirit > Haste to 3764 > Crit > Mastery > Haste) with full Spirit gemming. The only reason that he is at 14k spirit and not 18k is because he has INT trinkets and they have static Spirit trinkets, and he is still using non-Spirit legs to use T14 4pc.

    Also, he has sat for 3 of their 9 fights, and apparently just purchased the VP DPS trinket, indicating that they are probably using him as Ele and not Resto on several other fights.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    You are not forced to play as the mana battery. Luumis is doing just fine with 13k spirit.
    You don't have any logs though and it appears he was benched for at least 2 fights.

  16. #236
    I'm currently in a 10m raiding guild...been there since October and have been present for all first kills since I joined.
    5.2 released and I've been benched 5 nights(4 of which were this week) and I've now missed out on 3 or 4 first kills.

    We were running 2 resto shamans for a lot of t14. We ended up getting a really good holy paladin recruit towards the end of t14 and needless to say he's been in 100% of the time so far this tier. Our other resto shaman has pretty much been in over me because his ilvl is slightly higher as is his hps(but not by much and I beat him a fair bit)...some fights I beat the other 2 healers too, it really just depends on how effectively my big CDs heal for. Sometimes it's assigned, called out to be used, but there's just not enough damage going out at that time and a lot of that HTT or w/e ends up being overheals

    I agree that we need a better non-stacking AOE heal. Glyph of chain heal along with glyph of riptide seems to be the way to go most fights in ToT so far...but we end up losing a lot of hps because of it and it's much more difficult to manage mana when we're blanketing the raid with riptides...I think glyph of riptide shouldn't cut the initial heal down by 90% but maybe only by 50% or something...that way we're still getting that life saving initial riptide heal but also sacrificing a huge initial heal.

    Or maybe it's just time to reroll this tier...I do have a monk and druid healer sitting in LFR/blue gear that I could gear up fairly quickly. We currently don't have either on our raid roster...

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Shammyspice View Post

    We were running 2 resto shamans for a lot of t14. We ended up getting a really good holy paladin recruit towards the end of t14 and needless to say he's been in 100% of the time so far this tier. Our other resto shaman has pretty much been in over me because his ilvl is slightly higher as is his hps(but not by much and I beat him a fair bit)...some fights I beat the other 2 healers too, it really just depends on how effectively my big CDs heal for. Sometimes it's assigned, called out to be used, but there's just not enough damage going out at that time and a lot of that HTT or w/e ends up being overheals

    I agree that we need a better non-stacking AOE heal. Glyph of chain heal along with glyph of riptide seems to be the way to go most fights in ToT so far...but we end up losing a lot of hps because of it and it's much more difficult to manage mana when we're blanketing the raid with riptides...I think glyph of riptide shouldn't cut the initial heal down by 90% but maybe only by 50% or something...that way we're still getting that life saving initial riptide heal but also sacrificing a huge initial heal.

    Or maybe it's just time to reroll this tier...I do have a monk and druid healer sitting in LFR/blue gear that I could gear up fairly quickly. We currently don't have either on our raid roster...
    I cringe every time I read / hear a fellow healer talk about meters.

    People are too focused on data and having the highest HPS, and not on what it takes to progress.

    I've been thoroughly enjoying myself this expansion. I'm playing what I see to be the highest skill cap (PvE wise) spec in the game...and doing pretty well with it (working on heroic Council now). I guess being in a 25 man might make my role a bit more viable...I simply cannot relate to the 10 man world...but the concept still must hold true.

    I think it was earlier in this thread...I remember reading something like: let the high throughout big guns carry the meters, us Resto Shammies can truly carry a raid with behind the scenes play. We are the definition of clutch, and I'm loving it. Today, while considered underpowered by most, is much better than the Sunwell days of CH spam.
    Last edited by Toxigen; 2013-03-19 at 03:50 PM.

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  18. #238
    I was more or less just specifying that I'm "competitive" with our other healers, since it was brought to my attention that I had been being benched due to slightly better numbers by out other resto shaman.

    I'm quite aware that hps isn't everything and that it's more about working together as a team and if bosses are dying and people are alive, you're probably doing it right.
    BUT, since we have 2 resto shams both of similar skill, obviously 1 is going to be sat since this tier isn't favoring resto shamans.

  19. #239
    Sigh, it's always funny to see shaman community so divided. I remember times of early Cata when things gone out of control. Lots of shamans were shouting complaining about state of resto, that they are not competitive, but some shouted "We are okay L2P scrub", then blizzard gave us buff to passive healing, which wasn't perfect but some solution and stated that they "see" resto problems, which gave birth to SLT in 5.1. Then the cursed Firelands came, where encounter design do not support shaman style of healing and for the whole 5.2 we didn't see any changes to help shamans, just after 5.2 blizzard acknowledged that there is a problem and gave us some buffs, but still didn't touch problem of our healing "style", instead they made encounters to fit it, which was wrong. Seems like the history will repeat itself. Either Blizzard don't care about shamans or have no idea what to do with us, both options are sad. I get used to this, there is really nothing we can do.

    There are a lot of good ideas going on and I think no one really wants Shamans to be kings of meters, we just want to be on par with other healers. The perfect quote for this is :
    All we want and need is a hammer for that nail. Stop buffing that screwdriver. It doesn't help when dealing with a nail.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    I cringe every time I read / hear a fellow healer talk about meters.

    People are too focused on data and having the highest HPS, and not on what it takes to progress.

    I've been thoroughly enjoying myself this expansion. I'm playing what I see to be the highest skill cap (PvE wise) spec in the game...and doing pretty well with it (working on heroic Council now). I guess being in a 25 man might make my role a bit more viable...I simply cannot relate to the 10 man world...but the concept still must hold true.

    I think it was earlier in this thread...I remember reading something like: let the high throughout big guns carry the meters, us Resto Shammies can truly carry a raid with behind the scenes play. We are the definition of clutch, and I'm loving it. Today, while considered underpowered by most, is much better than the Sunwell days of CH spam.
    I disagree with this.

    We once had a superior utility that compensated for our lower throughput.

    This is no longer the case. Other healers recived utility buff and we are all more or less balanced on that area. But we didnt get the corresponding throughput buff.

    The only utility we have now that other healers dont provide is Mana Tide, and not surprisingly is the only reason why top end guilds take a resto shaman with them.

    We need a buff, and we need a spread raid heal (glyphs of chain heal and riptide are not)

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