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  1. #261
    I'd like to see CH remade into an instant spell with short cd (4-6 sec) and high throughput, with 20 yard jump range as baseline. IOW, a button that shamans would look forward to pushing whenever there's raid damage, regardless of positioning. I think all other healer specs have that kind of a button to press.

  2. #262
    Hi all, start with a bit of a disclaimer here. For a number of reasons I haven't been playing for a couple months, but I still like to say informed, if things have changed I apologize for sticking my head in this

    Just going to start off by saying, this is the same argument people have been putting forward about the "PERCIVED" weakness of shaman spread healing. Really when you think about it, the need to heal a spread raid in 10mans is really that key. Sure as a resto shaman, you have to work a bit harder to achieve the same result but for people to just say it's broken, IMO isn't correct.

    For the most part, you will be healing as part as a team. This means that you will probably only have 4-5 maybe 6 (The other healer(s) pick up the balance) or so targets that each healer has to heal. And when you think about it like that, even for a resto shaman to burst up that much, its quite do-able. Not as easy as some classes, but do-able not the less.
    Drop a HST, Riptide the tank, couple TW fuelled GHW/HW spot healing, chain heal the melee/tanks and bam, your responsibilities are all healed in a few seconds. Not even taking into account any real CD's there either or that you could even drop a HR for fire and forget healing on a less than optimal group of people. No one button wonder that other classes may have I know but you can still make do.

    Now, maybe resto shaman are behind on through put, but in my opinion spread healing is the problem. It may contribute a little I guess, but not the problem. Really, I think this isn't so much the resto shaman through put has fallen behind, I think other classes have got out of hand

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hursey View Post
    Hi all, start with a bit of a disclaimer here. For a number of reasons I haven't been playing for a couple months, but I still like to say informed, if things have changed I apologize for sticking my head in this

    Just going to start off by saying, this is the same argument people have been putting forward about the "PERCIVED" weakness of shaman spread healing. Really when you think about it, the need to heal a spread raid in 10mans is really that key. Sure as a resto shaman, you have to work a bit harder to achieve the same result but for people to just say it's broken, IMO isn't correct.

    For the most part, you will be healing as part as a team. This means that you will probably only have 4-5 maybe 6 (The other healer(s) pick up the balance) or so targets that each healer has to heal. And when you think about it like that, even for a resto shaman to burst up that much, its quite do-able. Not as easy as some classes, but do-able not the less.
    Drop a HST, Riptide the tank, couple TW fuelled GHW/HW spot healing, chain heal the melee/tanks and bam, your responsibilities are all healed in a few seconds. Not even taking into account any real CD's there either or that you could even drop a HR for fire and forget healing on a less than optimal group of people. No one button wonder that other classes may have I know but you can still make do.

    Now, maybe resto shaman are behind on through put, but in my opinion spread healing is the problem. It may contribute a little I guess, but not the problem. Really, I think this isn't so much the resto shaman through put has fallen behind, I think other classes have got out of hand
    What can I say, other than "you are just wrong"... The problem really lies within shaman, not other healers. The way shaman has to heal is idiotic. We use our single target heals for basically everything. Would you consider Holy Priests being fine, if the only spell they used is Flash Heal; whether there is raid damage to the whole raid, 5 players, 2 players or just 1 player, you would cast Flash Heal from target to target. That is what shaman healing is at the moment, and it is broken.
    And it's not that our single target heals are that tremendously OP so we should just cast them, the problem is that our AoE heals are too damn shit.
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by suffeli View Post
    Yes I had problems, too. Resto shaman is definitely undertuned in 10 man. And it's undertuned by quite a huge margin.
    I'd say more of the failure of shamans come from the raid you play in not understanding how you heal. Meanwhile single target throughput is still rock solid, and with that our raid CD's are great.

  5. #265
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milkshake86 View Post
    I'd say more of the failure of shamans come from the raid you play in not understanding how you heal. Meanwhile single target throughput is still rock solid, and with that our raid CD's are great.
    That's a good point, and one that I've also repeatedly made in the past. We have to instruct our raid where to be, where to go and please don't stand too far apart if you find that you can't huddle in healing rain because I'd like to actually use chainheal to heal several of you guys for a little bit instead of just topping off that one person in the same timeframe.

    That's a huge issue, and it once more boils down to spread healing. And I've ceased whining to the raid about it a long time ago. Because it makes shaman healers annoying to bring. You get on people's nerves. Big time. Because no other healer has to herd their sheep that way to make AoE-heals a viable alternative to single-target-rotations. It's annoying to people to constantly be told that you can't heal them the way you'd like to heal them because of their positioning.

    It shouldn't be necessary that we make our raids that knowledgeable about our class. They shouldn't need crash courses in "how to be healed by shaman" any more than they need "how to be healed by a priest" or "how to be healed by a pala" lessons.
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  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milkshake86 View Post
    I'd say more of the failure of shamans come from the raid you play in not understanding how you heal. Meanwhile single target throughput is still rock solid, and with that our raid CD's are great.
    Yes I know that is an issue for many people (the point that their raid doesn't understand how shaman must heal to be effective), but that's not the case in my raid. I've lectured them numerous times these key points:
    1. If there is a Healing Rain, step on it.
    2. Stick together always, if the encounter mechanics don't deny it.

    My raid has learned to do the #1, but it took some time . The 2. here is the issue, 99,9999% of bossfights (slightly overexaggerated number ) makes it impossible for people to be stacked up.

    Shamans healing toolbox isn't all broken though. Our single target heals are good and have their niche due to mastery. They are not OP, but good.
    Healing Stream Totem is good. It's an ability with 30 sec cd and you want to use it on every CD, that's what cooldown abilities should be. (just like Circle of Healing, Swiftmend, Wild Growth, Renewing Mist, Penance, Holy Shock). Our raid cooldowns are great, although Spirit Link should have a longer radius. I don't think it should have 40yds or something like that which many people have said, I think a radius around 15-20yds would be reasonable. Anyways it should have a bit more impact than "yes it's affecting me and the one warlock standing close to me, what about the rest of the raid?".

    The problematic spells in our toolbox are Riptide, Unleash Elements and AoE heals; Healing Rain and Chain Heal. Even though Riptide has a cooldown, gives you Tidal Waves and has a moderate mana cost, you don't want to push that button on every CD. Unleash Elements has a nice secondary effect, but the impact heal is too weak. By the time you buff your next GHW or whatnot, the target might die. And with Unleashed Fury talent, the next heal is too big for majority of situations (oh yes those 600k GHW crits, when 200k would have been enough). Chain Heal and Healing Rain problems have been thoroughly examined in this thread already.
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

  7. #267
    What baffles me in this thread, is reading some posts that seem to be implying that Shamans were also bad in 5.0-5.1?

    We ran a Disc/RestoSham combo during most of our 5.0 10HM progression and our restoshaman was amazing. At times our Disc Priest, who is known as one of the best on our server, had a hard time keeping up with him. Granted, our Resto Shaman has been an amazing player for many expansions now too and the rest of us as a raid had good positioning for both him and our Disc (bunched-up works for both ), although his HRs also had good positioning since he adapted them to each boss fight, but still, at no point did we feel that he was holding us back. On the contrary, the nights that we had both our Disc/RestoSham in were our better tries (and most of our Heroic kills).

    I'm sorry that I can't offer any feedback on 5.2 content (because I don't have any ) but I just found that weird.
    Last edited by Andeus; 2013-03-21 at 10:18 AM.

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andeus View Post
    What baffles me in this thread, is reading some posts that seem to be implying that Shamans were also bad in 5.0-5.1?

    We ran a Disc/RestoSham combo during most of our 5.0 10HM progression and our restoshaman was amazing. At times our Disc Priest, who is known as one of the best on our server, had a hard time keeping up with him. Granted, our Resto Shaman has been an amazing player for many expansions now too and the rest of us as a raid had good positioning for both him and our Disc (bunched-up works for both ), although his HRs also had good positioning since he adapted them to each boss fight, but still, at no point did we feel that he was holding us back. On the contrary, the nights that we had both our Disc/RestoSham in were our better tries (and most of our Heroic kills).

    I'm sorry that I can't offer any feedback on 5.2 content (because I don't have any ) but I just found that weird.
    Yep, resto shamans were bad in 5.0 and 5.1, too. Now they are just worse. And don't get me wrong, the content was easily doable with resto shaman, but that doesn't change the fact that it was even easier with any other healer. I healed the whole content through with a disc priest, and our 3rd healer was a resto druid (for those few encounters that required 3 healers). The only encounter resto shamans were better than any other healer was Tsulong, and that was due to broken encounter/talent mechanics, not due to shaman being so much better than others overall.

    EDIT: Now that I think of it, there was actually one fight where I would rank shaman higher than others. That was Zorlok. But other than Zorlok+Tsulong, rank #6 on all fights.
    Last edited by Puupi; 2013-03-21 at 11:18 AM.
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by mjolnrir View Post
    Sorry but as i have said twice already, im talking about what we have that other healers do not, not about other shamans. And i dont think hex breaks any earlier for resto anymore. I know it used to break depending on your hit rating but now we have a passive named spiritual insight which says grants hex 15% hit chance thus making it hit capped.
    The spiritual insight applies only when you launch the spell, not on each tick where it check if it needs to break or not. I know because i have used hex a lot in raids, it hits, but always breaks in less than 2 seconds. Feel free to try it out, you really havent.

    We dont have more utility than other healers, we have different, but almost every single utility we have can be brought by a DPS shaman like elemental, which is much better to have on your raid than us.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjolnrir View Post
    First the thread title specifically says 10man, second every cooldown has a place for everything, spirit link in my opinion is the most powerful cooldown we have spite its short range and duration just because its an absolutely life saving cooldown which can save a tank or any raid member during a stacked up period if used right.
    Yes, we have some really nice cooldowns, but again, ALL of them needs the raid to be stacked, which is a position we dont really have much problems (although we arent better than other healers either)

    Quote Originally Posted by mjolnrir View Post
    Yea i agree with this, we do need more abilities to spread healing, and a general buff overall
    Which is all my point. All we need is a spread out heal and a slight throughput buff.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjolnrir View Post
    Tranq and divine hymn both require to be channeled and tranq especially needs to build up a bit before hand. Healing tide doesnt suffer from these. A stomp on garalon for example, precast healing tide. As soon as the stomp hits every1s hp is half up again before the purgency hits. And you say that priests and paladins can do god modes? Maybe they can do alot more healing overall but in the oh shit moments nothing beats a shamans cooldowns. As I said a shaman can save people more than a priest or paladin can just because we can get every1 back to full hp as quick as possible when needed whilst a priest (i havent played 1 much so correct me if im wrong) ends up having to predict the damage and negate it before hand in order to save people with spirit shell for instance. But what about when unpredictable damage gets through which could kill a raid?
    Yeah, they have less oh shit moments, but if you have more of them, you wont have those oh shit moments in the first place. With the thgouput and shields of Paladins and Priests, your raid wont have 1 hp after garalon's crush.


    Quote Originally Posted by mjolnrir View Post
    Thats not true. To get elemental mastery you get rid of ancestral swiftness or echo of the elements. Since echo is bad for healing because of rng and AS, the passive haste isnt the best because of all the haste we have until we can reach higher haste caps easy thus gives us the instance heal. I would say EM is better than both by quite a margin. Who doesnt want a 30% haste for 20secs with a short cooldown for when the going gets tough?
    I think AS is still better. 5% haste all the time plus an oh shit button is better than 30% haste for 20 seconds every 90.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-21 at 09:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Milkshake86 View Post
    I'd say more of the failure of shamans come from the raid you play in not understanding how you heal. Meanwhile single target throughput is still rock solid, and with that our raid CD's are great.
    When all your raid needs to play for you at the same time that they are fosucing on avoiding all the crap and doing their job so you can be as effective as other healers that dont need the whole raid to play for them then you have a worse healer class.

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    The spiritual insight applies only when you launch the spell, not on each tick where it check if it needs to break or not. I know because i have used hex a lot in raids, it hits, but always breaks in less than 2 seconds. Feel free to try it out, you really havent.
    My hex has not once broken since mop. And ive used it in challenge modes, raids, everywhere that can use a cc. Ive even tested it keeping on a random level 90 mob for 10mins. I know this isnt a very long testing period but still the fact it hasnt broken proves that it doesnt "always" break in less than 2 secs. I then tested it again in elemental spec with no gear on so I had a 6% miss chance on level 90 targets and it broke every time i cast it, whilst testing for 10mins again. If yours is breaking in less than 2secs always, thats obviously a dot or aoe on it. Even in cataclysm where it was noticeable breaking it wouldnt break until about 30secs usually.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by mjolnrir View Post
    My hex has not once broken since mop. And ive used it in challenge modes, raids, everywhere that can use a cc. Ive even tested it keeping on a random level 90 mob for 10mins. I know this isnt a very long testing period but still the fact it hasnt broken proves that it doesnt "always" break in less than 2 secs. I then tested it again in elemental spec with no gear on so I had a 6% miss chance on level 90 targets and it broke every time i cast it, whilst testing for 10mins again. If yours is breaking in less than 2secs always, thats obviously a dot or aoe on it. Even in cataclysm where it was noticeable breaking it wouldnt break until about 30secs usually.
    First of all, why are you talking about hex? Which boss requires hex? DON'T tell me Meljerak. There are already better CCs given to you and you don't need to use your own. If you're using your own CC and not the ones given to you, then you are doing something terribly wrong. No other boss requires cc. No trash requires cc.

    We are NOT talking about challenge mode and Resto Shaman viability in them. And no challenge mode requires CC either btw. Maybe one or two group and if you have much better CC available for them.
    Last edited by Waterisbest; 2013-03-21 at 04:06 PM.
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    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by suffeli View Post
    What can I say, other than "you are just wrong"... The problem really lies within shaman, not other healers. The way shaman has to heal is idiotic. We use our single target heals for basically everything. Would you consider Holy Priests being fine, if the only spell they used is Flash Heal; whether there is raid damage to the whole raid, 5 players, 2 players or just 1 player, you would cast Flash Heal from target to target. That is what shaman healing is at the moment, and it is broken.
    And it's not that our single target heals are that tremendously OP so we should just cast them, the problem is that our AoE heals are too damn shit.
    I'm not sure I got my point across. Yeah, I agree other classes have it easy when it comes to healing a spread raid, but as a resto shaman it is far from broken or un-doable as people are suggesting here.
    Also thing that everyone keeps forgetting is that healers work as part of a team, not in isolation. No one expects any healer of an class no matter how OP they are at the time to heal an entire raid. Might be a bit of 5.1 philosophy here, but I would label this as triage healing, use your single target heals to deal with the worse cases while your healing partner/team spam their one button AOE wonder heal.

    What I'm seeing here is that people are saying we can't compete on meters. While that may be true it, you have to look at it in context. These raids may have say a disc priest, Disc priest in combination have always made resto shaman look bad. Because of the way our mastery works, the better other healers are, the worse resto shaman look.

  13. #273
    Raid a little bit of the new tier then get back to us please.

  14. #274
    272 replies in 15 days this thread deserves some blizzard attention IMO. It's clearly broken.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by dustya View Post
    272 replies in 15 days this thread deserves some blizzard attention IMO. It's clearly broken.
    If you guys really want to help resto shaman out add a US post to http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...8643281?page=7

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Hursey View Post
    What I'm seeing here is that people are saying we can't compete on meters. While that may be true it, you have to look at it in context. These raids may have say a disc priest, Disc priest in combination have always made resto shaman look bad. Because of the way our mastery works, the better other healers are, the worse resto shaman look.
    It's not really so much meter whoring that anyone cares about. It's that when it comes to the chopping block, shamans are generally first to go. When we were doing progression on Sinestra and Heroic Rag where we had to drop to 4-5 healers, I ended up bring my H.Paladin just because they were that much better. Even though they were nowhere near geared as the shaman was.

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafal View Post
    If you guys really want to help resto shaman out add a US post to http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...8643281?page=7
    It seems to be a horrible thread now that is arguing over if we are giving out enough info other than whining.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    It seems to be a horrible thread now that is arguing over if we are giving out enough info other than whining.
    Well instead of "_____"ing about it how about you post something constructive? The reason Shamans are in this position is because we are generally a quiet and less organized community IMO.

  19. #279
    Resto 10m has been horrible the entire expansion so far. Back in Cata I was able to compete fairly well with my fellow healers (disc, rdruid), in MoP I am usually at least 20% behind them (now healing with a disc and hpally). It seriously made me doubt my capacities as a healer, but it's a bit of a relief to see that I'm not the only shaman having trouble keeping up with other classes atm.

  20. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seriss View Post
    That's a good point, and one that I've also repeatedly made in the past. We have to instruct our raid where to be, where to go and please don't stand too far apart if you find that you can't huddle in healing rain because I'd like to actually use chainheal to heal several of you guys for a little bit instead of just topping off that one person in the same timeframe.

    That's a huge issue, and it once more boils down to spread healing. And I've ceased whining to the raid about it a long time ago. Because it makes shaman healers annoying to bring. You get on people's nerves. Big time. Because no other healer has to herd their sheep that way to make AoE-heals a viable alternative to single-target-rotations. It's annoying to people to constantly be told that you can't heal them the way you'd like to heal them because of their positioning.

    It shouldn't be necessary that we make our raids that knowledgeable about our class. They shouldn't need crash courses in "how to be healed by shaman" any more than they need "how to be healed by a priest" or "how to be healed by a pala" lessons.
    You're not the only ones. Priests require the groups to be set up properly since PoH not only has a range requirement (on proximity to the cast target) but a group restriction. Heaven forbid that there are 5 injured people who aren't all in the same group. Also, "CLICK THE DAMN LIGHTWELL" required a lot of training your raid. How many expansions and patches did it take them to give us Glyph of Lightspring?

    Just saying, other healers have issues too.

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