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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by KidCanuck View Post
    You're not the only ones. Priests require the groups to be set up properly since PoH not only has a range requirement (on proximity to the cast target) but a group restriction. Heaven forbid that there are 5 injured people who aren't all in the same group. Also, "CLICK THE DAMN LIGHTWELL" required a lot of training your raid. How many expansions and patches did it take them to give us Glyph of Lightspring?

    Just saying, other healers have issues too.
    I know that hurts your healing potential as a priest, but even with this problem---or handicap of having to heal a whole group priests are still better overall. As pointed out above, in order for shamans to even get relatively close to other healers they have to have a coordinated raid that is generally close/stacked for healing rain and chain heals. Especially in 10man where our single target heals are indirectly forced to be used for more efficiency and throughput. In a 25man you generally want a resto shaman for the toolkit/mana-battery they provide, but there is no point in having one for a 10man guild besides Megaera. If you're hoping to even be "semi-hardcore" in the 10man raiding environment, then there is really no point in having one unless your healing roster is not flexible.

    Coming from a "semi-hardcore" raiding guild that is 10man with a semi-flexible healing roster, I am the "swing healer" for 3 healed fights and other than that I'm either sitting or playing elemental for 2 healed fights. I have multiple ranks ranging from 4-60 this tier and last tier, so I know I'm not TOO bad of a healer, but as gunner said: "It's that when it comes to the chopping block, shamans are generally first to go." It basically all comes down to this question: If your roster has healers who are all good, why not just bring in the best classes for each fight? When it's put that way, which is the realistic/progression-minded way, the only fight you should ever need a resto shaman for(again, 10man perspective) is Megaera.

  2. #282
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    There is a lot of argue'ing going on, both in the US forums and here, but it basically comes down to the following. Some say we're fine, others say we're not and others wanna see top shamans perform.

    I have stated plenty of times for different reasons that we're not fine and I certainly can't be bothered to re-say what I've been saying many times. Yes, we can provide ourselves as a mana bot, but that is more or less giving out support then feeling actually useful by casting heals, the way we are supposed to be, healers. As that is what we rolled for. If I wanted to roll a supporting class, I would have rolled a paladin as ally (back when I started my shaman, it was 5 minutes blessing buff bot, gg, bite me).

    To add into the two discussions regarding PvP and Sunwell healing, I'll start out with the Sunwell healing:

    The Chain Heal buffs that are linked and then comparing it with Sunwell healing is very gross. Especially considering that we used 3 ranks at the least of Chain Heal (Rank 1, Rank 2 and Rank 4) and that Rank 1 and Rank 2 were both at 0.7 seconds, you wouldn't even dream of calling it constant chain heal button mashing. Remember that there was no healing rain, no riptide and no healing tide. These are still highly valuable spells in our arsenal. The only other reason we could do that is because there was raid stacking (hear that, stacking, something we barely can do in ToT, god, what a lovely word!). The range was even lower then it is currently (10 yards instead of 13 yards, and trust me, you feel those 3 yards).

    Oh yeah, it also was not a smart heal back then. Meaning that if it jumped to a totem or a pet, you're fucked. It broke the chain, not benefitting it fully. Ofcourse, that didn't mattered with such a short cast time, but take that into account too. It is now a smart heal, so it will go earlier to people that are on lower health.

    It was LHW spam in Vanilla and you had like 5-7 different ranks at the least on your bars. Later on, when you had more mp5, you could go Chan Heal/Healing Wave, but then we're talking about end of T2/begin of T3 and even then, you were careful.

    It would never be simply Chain Heal spam if Blizzy would make sure our healing rain would still be better to place then our chain heal on stacked parts. It should be used as a filler, which it is laughable at right now at the moment.

    Now, as for the PvP point of view:

    A good Resto Shaman in PvP never ever ever ever ever ever will EVER use Chain Heal in arena. NEVER! Not even if it gets buffed, it will never do it. Healing Surge, Riptide and HST are just way too powerful for that. Plus the cast time of Chain Heal is too long, even if you reduce it by half a second, it still leaves you open for a long time to get interrupted, something you do not want. Especially silence is bad, 8 second lockout, bye arena partner. This is ofcourse an exeggaration, but to hopefully show you that for arena, a shaman will never use chain heal.

    For RBG, however, Chain Heal will be used if it gets buffed. And it's needed, shaman healing in rbg is also a joke nowadays. You always have that first big clash and you mostly will notice that a shaman simply lacks the burst healing that is sometimes required (unless your healers are bad). Especially in the bg Temple of Kotmogu, it really shows that shamans are in a bad spot.

    Add with the fact that resto shaman does not have much cooldowns apart from Astral Shift if it gets targetted in a switch (it does not have bubble for instance), it is mostly the first target that gets killed, because everyone believes that shaman is the best healer. Which is true, for arena. For RBG, we are not that great. We aren't bad, but we aren't great either.

    Well, this became a bigger post then I intented.
    Much love to Indicate for creating. Eis' work

  3. #283
    Here, I can can give short version of why resto sucks for anything but arena and what is holding us back from getting needed buffs out of fear of overpowering us for 3s/5s

    mastery.

    the end

  4. #284
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    Here, I can can give short version of why resto sucks for anything but arena and what is holding us back from getting needed buffs out of fear of overpowering us for 3s/5s

    mastery.

    the end
    That is the best and shortest summary I've ever read. And he is right.

    Despite the fact that mastery is a pile of dogshit in PvE, it is a pile of the Holy Grail in 3s/5s.
    Much love to Indicate for creating. Eis' work

  5. #285
    Well how can anyone still say resto shamans are fine?

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00000000111111
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_Scor...00000000111111

    This is the 6 months progression and anyone can see how resto developed. It was solid in the first weeks, but after egaring up and some class balancing and buffs, resto was already the worst healer specc by far. Now it's ridicilous. Priests and Palas are ALWAYS 10-40% better. The other healers also average 10-20 % better.

    There have to be some massive fixes and class changes. Changing mastery would be really necessary, reworking HR or getting some kind of spreaded heal rework is absolutely needed.

  6. #286
    Gc from his twitter:

    "atGhostcrawler: Hey GC, are you currently looking into PvE Resto Shaman Healing? We're standing in the shadow of the other Healers lately.

    AtAleX_Sely: As determined by what? HPS isn't a great way to measure healer power."

    Time to reroll!

  7. #287
    Scarab Lord Puupi's Avatar
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    He can't be serious...
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

    http://www.hitbox.tv/puupi - mythic restoration/enhancement shaman raiding

  8. #288
    Sure they are after hpala and disc but as 3rd healer in 10man i rather go with a resto shaman then a holy priest or resto druid simply cause the mana totem+they still got spirit link totem and can push awfull sickly nice dps when needed with ascendance. Raw healing isnt everything so dont look blindly at the recount nr's shamans got more then one thing that they bring to the raid. Can easily put out some descent dps in downperiods of low dmg, perfect for dispell offensice and defensice, resistance totem in healing stream totem can really play well sometimes. But I still think they should lower the time on Lb for resto shamans and make it do some more dmg.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by suffeli View Post
    He can't be serious...
    He is very serious. And very very correct.

  10. #290
    Stood in the Fire Jesmam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatige View Post
    can push awfull sickly nice dps when needed with ascendance.
    Are you trolling here or what, I'm not sure.... No resto shaman worth his salt wastes a single gcd in Ascendance to do dmg.... And as myself, I don't like to be the support/mana battery for the other healers.
    New main for WoD: Brewmaster Ryuuzetsu

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  11. #291
    Actually he is very very wrong. He didn't even attempt to answer the question.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuroyanagi View Post
    Actually he is very very wrong. He didn't even attempt to answer the question.
    No it was a very good answer for such a broad question. So he went the route of answering the whole Hps meter question which is why most of the shamans here are complaining about.

  13. #293
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    No it was a very good answer for such a broad question. So he went the route of answering the whole Hps meter question which is why most of the shamans here are complaining about.
    He indeed answered the question. The question itself was badly formulated. Too bad he only actively responds on Twitter though where there are much more detailed posts on the forums that are unanswered, that makes me more sad to be honest.

    He answered the HPS meter question, yes. HPS alone is not enough to measure healing power. It's indeed the amount of HPS, Healing Done, how long you can keep healing until you oom yourself (duration), cooldowns and surviveability. Let's break it into account.

    HPS - No need to tell you, it's bad.
    Healing Done - Often mistakingly directly linked to HPS, but during downtime, HPS goes lower. If your active time is higher, your healing done can be higher then from somebody who is lower on active time (although rarely, unless one died).
    Duration - How long can we go on doing our normal priority rotation before we go oom. And in that case, it's very easy. We need a high amount of spirit and a decent amount of crit (as we else severely lack throughput) to be able to heal longer then 5 minutes. Some fights tend to last 10+ minutes and we need to be prepared for such fights.
    Cooldowns - Argueably the best thing we provide is Healing Tide. Spirit Link and Ascendence require still that we are stacked (yes, Restorative Mists has a range, as big a range as Chain Heal has, which is 13y). It heals good, but after 3-4 ticks, it is near useless, as any other healing cooldown that can be replaced with us can do the same thing. Maybe not as fast, but we're talking cooldown wise here and then we are good.
    Surviveability - Hmm, we got Astral Shift on a 1 minute cooldown. That's good. Or Stone Bulwark for an absorb. That's also not bad. Plus if we're specced in PE, we have a 10% dmg reduc buff from the earth elemental if it channels. Not bad. Not good, but not bad either.

    So indeed, it's not all HPS. But it is what we lack severely. HPS and Healing Done. Period, you can not deny that. And if we're lacking one part and one thing that's good from us that can be replaced by any other class their cooldown, but maybe a second slower? Oh, well, fuck it, we take him in as we need better healing.

    I know you linked me that post before, but I do not agree with that. I simply don't as every healer can do that and even better. The point is not how we are supposed to heal, the point is more that we have to be able to do that. And with shitty throughput, we can't. Not even our "ohshit" Ancestral Swiftness button with Greater Healing Wave is able to fully top a person from low health if it doesn't crit.
    Much love to Indicate for creating. Eis' work

  14. #294
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuroyanagi View Post
    Actually he is very very wrong. He didn't even attempt to answer the question.
    90% of the complaints about Resto will link to Raidbots HPS measures and say "OMG we're like 20% behind everyone, we're broken". The point GC was making is that HPS is a really, really terrible measure of healer value.

    That doesn't mean there's no problem and Resto is fine, but you need to look beyond the HPS numbers. They're a part of the equation, but using those numbers without considering the other factors is not just fallacious, it's misleading. In particular, Resto Shaman are a very responsive healer. We have a lot of "smart" healing that automatically targets those who need it most, and our Mastery is similarly ideally suited to snatching people back up from the brink of death. Some healers blanket heals on everyone, Shaman generally do less healing, but it's better targeted healing.

    If you want to see healing in comparative terms to DPS, you need to turn things around. You need to see 10/25 adds, all with moderately high health pools, and they're getting constant uneven heals. Being able to throw down a lot of broad-spectrum AoE on everything is useful, but arguably not as useful as being able to burst a single add that gets dangerously low, to kill it early. Think of a fight like the Faction Champions in ToC; you generally didn't try and beat that by AoEing them all down, you beat it by bursting one down and killing them, and going in order. Pushing your personal DPS higher by spamming AoEs on them doesn't necessarily help beat the event, if that AoE is getting healed back.

    Healing works the same way, to a large extent. Spamming big HPS AoE heals is useful; it provides a buffer against death, but it doesn't react to circumstances. Shaman healing does that targeting. It's not about providing the most brute-force healing, it's about providing the most critical healing.

    That's something that simply doesn't show up on metrics you can pull from a log parse. It's a lot more complicated.

    None of this means "Resto is fine, L2P". Resto may indeed be lagging behind. But you can't use the HPS results as the sole proof of that. That's the point.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Schadow View Post
    He indeed answered the question. The question itself was badly formulated. Too bad he only actively responds on Twitter though where there are much more detailed posts on the forums that are unanswered, that makes me more sad to be honest.

    He answered the HPS meter question, yes. HPS alone is not enough to measure healing power. It's indeed the amount of HPS, Healing Done, how long you can keep healing until you oom yourself (duration), cooldowns and surviveability. Let's break it into account.

    HPS - No need to tell you, it's bad.
    Healing Done - Often mistakingly directly linked to HPS, but during downtime, HPS goes lower. If your active time is higher, your healing done can be higher then from somebody who is lower on active time (although rarely, unless one died).
    Duration - How long can we go on doing our normal priority rotation before we go oom. And in that case, it's very easy. We need a high amount of spirit and a decent amount of crit (as we else severely lack throughput) to be able to heal longer then 5 minutes. Some fights tend to last 10+ minutes and we need to be prepared for such fights.
    Cooldowns - Argueably the best thing we provide is Healing Tide. Spirit Link and Ascendence require still that we are stacked (yes, Restorative Mists has a range, as big a range as Chain Heal has, which is 13y). It heals good, but after 3-4 ticks, it is near useless, as any other healing cooldown that can be replaced with us can do the same thing. Maybe not as fast, but we're talking cooldown wise here and then we are good.
    Surviveability - Hmm, we got Astral Shift on a 1 minute cooldown. That's good. Or Stone Bulwark for an absorb. That's also not bad. Plus if we're specced in PE, we have a 10% dmg reduc buff from the earth elemental if it channels. Not bad. Not good, but not bad either.

    So indeed, it's not all HPS. But it is what we lack severely. HPS and Healing Done. Period, you can not deny that. And if we're lacking one part and one thing that's good from us that can be replaced by any other class their cooldown, but maybe a second slower? Oh, well, fuck it, we take him in as we need better healing.

    I know you linked me that post before, but I do not agree with that. I simply don't as every healer can do that and even better. The point is not how we are supposed to heal, the point is more that we have to be able to do that. And with shitty throughput, we can't. Not even our "ohshit" Ancestral Swiftness button with Greater Healing Wave is able to fully top a person from low health if it doesn't crit.
    Well thats perhaps your problem with being a healer. Anyways read Endus' post it has what really matters in healing not that blanket padding healing most classes are doing at this time.

  16. #296
    I don't see why any raid wouldn't want a resto shaman in their roster. I can't imagine a 25 man raid without HTT, Mana Tide and Spirit Link. Not to forget Stormlash + Reincarnation + BL.. Resto shamans bring a lot of utility and thanks to their mastery are really good progression healers. They are also arguably the best tank healers. Sure a holy paladin can do more healing on two tanks thanks to beacon, but when it comes to healing a single tank shamans are really good if not the best.

    To be honest I wasn't really enjoying getting destroyed by the shamans healing rain and healing rain alone whenever the raid was stacked and I am still seeing a lot of good resto shamans destroying everyone HPS wise when the raid is stacked.(Though I must admit I feel really comfortable when the raid is stacked, because I know that our resto shaman can almost keep the entire raid up by himself and he has the biggest cooldowns in the universe if there is any danger.)

    Spread out aoe damage situations can be a nightmare for a resto shaman and thats when it feels like resto shamans can do nothing but use their cooldowns. They need some buffs there, but not too much because imo that would be a little unfair to mistweavers and druids and cause raids to stack resto shamans.
    (To be clear : utility wise, a resto druid can do nothing a balance druid can't and mistweavers have close to no utility.)

    Edit: Considering there is not a lot of stacking or even Healing Raining the melee in a 10man environment I can see why resto shamans feel broken. But still, they shouldn't be competitive with resto druids and mistweavers on spread out healing.
    Last edited by Rorschachs; 2013-03-24 at 05:55 AM.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    90% of the complaints about Resto will link to Raidbots HPS measures and say "OMG we're like 20% behind everyone, we're broken". The point GC was making is that HPS is a really, really terrible measure of healer value.

    That doesn't mean there's no problem and Resto is fine, but you need to look beyond the HPS numbers. They're a part of the equation, but using those numbers without considering the other factors is not just fallacious, it's misleading. In particular, Resto Shaman are a very responsive healer. We have a lot of "smart" healing that automatically targets those who need it most, and our Mastery is similarly ideally suited to snatching people back up from the brink of death. Some healers blanket heals on everyone, Shaman generally do less healing, but it's better targeted healing.

    If you want to see healing in comparative terms to DPS, you need to turn things around. You need to see 10/25 adds, all with moderately high health pools, and they're getting constant uneven heals. Being able to throw down a lot of broad-spectrum AoE on everything is useful, but arguably not as useful as being able to burst a single add that gets dangerously low, to kill it early. Think of a fight like the Faction Champions in ToC; you generally didn't try and beat that by AoEing them all down, you beat it by bursting one down and killing them, and going in order. Pushing your personal DPS higher by spamming AoEs on them doesn't necessarily help beat the event, if that AoE is getting healed back.

    Healing works the same way, to a large extent. Spamming big HPS AoE heals is useful; it provides a buffer against death, but it doesn't react to circumstances. Shaman healing does that targeting. It's not about providing the most brute-force healing, it's about providing the most critical healing.

    That's something that simply doesn't show up on metrics you can pull from a log parse. It's a lot more complicated.

    None of this means "Resto is fine, L2P". Resto may indeed be lagging behind. But you can't use the HPS results as the sole proof of that. That's the point.
    You have changed my opinion on the issue

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    90% of the complaints about Resto will link to Raidbots HPS measures and say "OMG we're like 20% behind everyone, we're broken". The point GC was making is that HPS is a really, really terrible measure of healer value.

    That doesn't mean there's no problem and Resto is fine, but you need to look beyond the HPS numbers. They're a part of the equation, but using those numbers without considering the other factors is not just fallacious, it's misleading. In particular, Resto Shaman are a very responsive healer. We have a lot of "smart" healing that automatically targets those who need it most, and our Mastery is similarly ideally suited to snatching people back up from the brink of death. Some healers blanket heals on everyone, Shaman generally do less healing, but it's better targeted healing.

    If you want to see healing in comparative terms to DPS, you need to turn things around. You need to see 10/25 adds, all with moderately high health pools, and they're getting constant uneven heals. Being able to throw down a lot of broad-spectrum AoE on everything is useful, but arguably not as useful as being able to burst a single add that gets dangerously low, to kill it early. Think of a fight like the Faction Champions in ToC; you generally didn't try and beat that by AoEing them all down, you beat it by bursting one down and killing them, and going in order. Pushing your personal DPS higher by spamming AoEs on them doesn't necessarily help beat the event, if that AoE is getting healed back.

    Healing works the same way, to a large extent. Spamming big HPS AoE heals is useful; it provides a buffer against death, but it doesn't react to circumstances. Shaman healing does that targeting. It's not about providing the most brute-force healing, it's about providing the most critical healing.

    That's something that simply doesn't show up on metrics you can pull from a log parse. It's a lot more complicated.

    None of this means "Resto is fine, L2P". Resto may indeed be lagging behind. But you can't use the HPS results as the sole proof of that. That's the point.
    Well put Endus! In fact so well said I've changed my stance a bit on playing my shaman. I think it was just my raid leaders getting to me... they tend to be meter maids at times.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    90% of the complaints about Resto will link to Raidbots HPS measures and say "OMG we're like 20% behind everyone, we're broken". The point GC was making is that HPS is a really, really terrible measure of healer value.

    That doesn't mean there's no problem and Resto is fine, but you need to look beyond the HPS numbers. They're a part of the equation, but using those numbers without considering the other factors is not just fallacious, it's misleading. In particular, Resto Shaman are a very responsive healer. We have a lot of "smart" healing that automatically targets those who need it most, and our Mastery is similarly ideally suited to snatching people back up from the brink of death. Some healers blanket heals on everyone, Shaman generally do less healing, but it's better targeted healing.

    If you want to see healing in comparative terms to DPS, you need to turn things around. You need to see 10/25 adds, all with moderately high health pools, and they're getting constant uneven heals. Being able to throw down a lot of broad-spectrum AoE on everything is useful, but arguably not as useful as being able to burst a single add that gets dangerously low, to kill it early. Think of a fight like the Faction Champions in ToC; you generally didn't try and beat that by AoEing them all down, you beat it by bursting one down and killing them, and going in order. Pushing your personal DPS higher by spamming AoEs on them doesn't necessarily help beat the event, if that AoE is getting healed back.

    Healing works the same way, to a large extent. Spamming big HPS AoE heals is useful; it provides a buffer against death, but it doesn't react to circumstances. Shaman healing does that targeting. It's not about providing the most brute-force healing, it's about providing the most critical healing.

    That's something that simply doesn't show up on metrics you can pull from a log parse. It's a lot more complicated.

    None of this means "Resto is fine, L2P". Resto may indeed be lagging behind. But you can't use the HPS results as the sole proof of that. That's the point.
    Nice post. HPS is not best way to compare healers, however unfortunately it's only "numerical", objective way, so you can't blame people for using it. I think most people (including), don't want to rock HPS matter and being first on recount, what we want is the fix to our toolkit, which is lacking at the moment and it is exposed each time content such as Firelands or ToT is released. Resto shaman is the healer that highly (or even the only one in that scale) depends on encounter mechanic and that shouldn't be really the case. In this tier it is more advantageous to bring 2 priests rather than 2 resto shamans for 10man, because for the same amount of effort priests will be more effective. We lack spells to deal with situation that priests can deal with much less problems, because what can we do on spread raid situation ? Mainly snipe heal with single target heals, HRs on meeles and hope they won't have to move from it. Chain heal is lacking(range, numbers?) right now, it has uses, but it's just weaker in comparison to other AoE Heals. Blizzard is probably afraid to buff it, because they don't want the return of CH spamming, but i doubt it will really happen.

  20. #300
    Scarab Lord Puupi's Avatar
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    HPS isn't the best tool to measure healing power, if you are talking about 25-man raids, or 10-mans with 3 or more healers. But if you are talking about 10-mans with 2 healers (aka most of the content), it really is the tool for it. When you are 2 healing content, there is roughly no overhealing at all and the HPS differences are just huge. All the HPS that you can push is needed.

    Shaman is a good 3rd healer in a 10man, and good 6th healer in 25mans. But shaman is nowhere near competetive to be the main healer of 10 man raid, all other classes do that job better.
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

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