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  1. #41
    Ya, it's just really frustrating to have our ability to do strong heals tied to stacking. It's a bit of a double whammy for me since a lot of my raiders almost always forget to keep stacked when possible on a fight, meaning I hardly get to drop HR. I love HR, but I hate it at the same time ;p

  2. #42
    Our 2 piece will be decent; about a 2-3% output increase. Our 4 piece is going to be fairly mediocre in 25 man, because not enough of our output comes from abilities that proc Ancestral Awakening. On top of that, tier bonuses are not going to fix the issue. Every other healer has awesome set bonuses this tier, and most of them look at least as strong if not stronger than the Shaman set bonuses.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Yes we were talking about 10man. But it's not just 10man we are suffering anymore, hence I bought up 25man too. A bit off-topic, but we weak overall atm and need buffs. I am actually surprised as to how much we are suffering in 25man, because I was thinking we will still be in the middle of the pack, even if lower, our hps will be very close, but how wrong was I. We are about 10-20% behind others depending the fight, both 10mand and 25man.

    I agree in 10man our 4p is really good and pretty much designed keeping 10man in mind. But that's a big "FUCK YOU" to 25man. Tier bonuses shouldn't be designed keeping one format of raid in mind.
    Well I mean, in 25 you can HR + CH spam and still do deeeeeeecent. In 10 man we're just fucked against the other healers. Priest in the group? Skilled resto druid in the group? Top dat overheal chart.

    Actually, I think mw monks overheal more with worse targetting, but maybe I'm just awfully shitty on mine.

  4. #44
    My biggest issue with Rsham in 10man is with Chain heal. I think this spell needs a revamp.
    Suggestions :
    - Lower the cast time to 1,5 sec : as we don't favor haste the way we used to do (back in Wotlk), a 2,5 cast time is way to much for the amount of HPS.
    OR
    - Buff its healing the way they buffed Chain lighning

    I love the glyph of chain heal, especially because without it the spell rarely hits all targets in 10man ; but the 4 seconds cooldown is hurting in period of heavy aoe with the raid spread. IMO they should double the range baseline (without cooldown), and change the glyph : like, hits more people with 25% less healing, dunno.

  5. #45
    Monks are pretty good if played properly. I heal with a pretty good one. We're currently 10/12(10man) as of tonight. Yeah, I have to agree with Zues. In 10man shamans are beyond shitty, so this 4pc is pretty damn good. At least you can chain heal and healing rain more in 25, even though it's still not that good.

    EDIT: Shamans need more than just a buff to chain heal btw. lol

  6. #46
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    You are all talking that resto shaman in pvp is quite strong and I will tell you now, they are not. so please, cut that bull. Yes, we were strong during cata seasons and even with the nerf to wind shear, we were still strong.

    But season 12, we were under holy paladins, paladins healed more for less and had more utility (like the Hands, immunity, silence immunity for 6 secs compared to us of 4), we were under monks with the fact they can both dps and heal at the same time and disc priests were strong aswell with their utilities.

    Following our silence nerf which was aimed for the PvP community (as I can only recall a few encounters silencing you in PvE), we were in a worse place then we already were (hence I still say that that silence nerf was completly unnecessary).

    Here is a post from Nsx, multi-glad on his shaman, that he also no longer played shaman during season 12 and his reasoning behind it:

    Hello everyone, I wanted to make a post to address all of the recent posts asking about the lack of resto shaman content from me at the lately. I have not been able to get content due to both of my shamans being undergeared and being unable to find good teams that I actually want to play on. I have been focusing on my paladin this season as I have never achieved gladiator or rank one on another class and I have been playing a shaman since vanilla WoW. I have also achieved gladiator several times on a shaman as well as multiple rank one titles. You can see why I could use a change of scenery!

    Rest assured, this does not mean I am retiring from skillcapped by any means and I will continue to generate videos in the future when I am able to gather suitable content. I am very picky about the content I use when I make my videos for skillcapped so if it's not up to my standards I'm not going to use it because it will not teach you guys anything if the material and strategies are bad or gimicky. That being said the teams I have been playing on lately are not ones that I would use to create videos for skillcapped. If I am able to gather content in the near future I will generate more videos but I wanted to make a post to address the issue and let everyone know what is going on.

    The reason I am so far behind on gear is because I missed several weeks of points due to not having teams early in the season and waiting a bit before leveling my second shaman. This caused me to quickly fall behind on gear and that was causing more and more losses for my teams and made playing my shaman extremely stressful and unenjoyable because I would have to play that much harder than the other team and they may have even been a very low rated team but the lack of gear and especially the lack of a tier 2 healing weapon caused many losses for my team and caused a lot of frustration. In order to obtain a tier 2 weapon you first need to have gathered over 15k conquest points for the season, then you need to be able to get 2200 in 3v3 or 5v5 before you can buy the weapon. Getting above 2200 was not the issue for me you see. The issue was that the shaman that became my main for the season was my alt shaman and the shaman that I chose to level second. This meant that I was able to get the rating fine but it was going to take weeks before I was able to gain enough points for the season to buy the tier 2 weapon. This was fine for a while but eventually teams started getting their tier 2 weapons because they had been getting points since the beginning of the season and alot were playing rbgs which give a huge conquest cap for very little work. This made playing my shaman more and more difficult because soon everyone had their tier 2 weapons and had a huge advantage on me and the situation quickly deteriorated due to other teams buying better and better armor while I was just trying to get enough points to even be on their level. This didn't cause my shaman to become unplayable, it cause it to become a challenge to play but I eventually decided to wait until my shaman had enough points to obtain a tier 2 weapon before I started playing seriously. This is when my team started falling apart.

    The team I was playing on and doing well with fell apart and my shaman sat on the server for months not getting points. So STILL my shaman was unable to buy a tier 2 and I brought him to the server where my paladin was where I was playing with old arena friends of mine so that my shaman would have a team to play on and have some fun. I was playing paladin at the time to begin mastering another class and I ended up learning the class extremely quickly and found that the paladin would do much better against the cleave teams that we were fighting against constantly and losing to when playing my shaman because he simply wasn't able to put out enough healing and was able to be controlled too much so if I didn't play extremely well or even perfectly we would lose against some teams. With the addition of blanket silences and lockouts causing totems to be unusable this really put a damper on my love for the shaman class. As I got better at my paladin and started getting better and better gear I found that the paladin could heal much better with less gear and could actually heal all of this cleave damage I was having to deal with. On top of that the cooldowns a paladin brought to the table allowed me to heal much more because I was able to stay out of enemy crowd control and bring a lot more defensive utility to my team which I was lacking with my shaman. My teammates soon began to like playing with my paladin more than my shaman because I was able to manage with the swarm of KFC's that were extremely dominant on the ladder. With the paladin's cooldowns I was much more capable of dealing with the damage and control of KFC. This was important because my team and I play warrior, mage, holy paladin which is a pretty rare comp and I have yet to find another on the US battlegroups that have been as high rated as we have. That being said, having a mage on our team makes him an extremely good target to KFC teams so you can see why being able to do an enormous amount of pressure healing was important to my team's success. The other big reason I enjoyed playing the paladin more this season was mana issues. Shamans are extremely gear dependent when it comes to mana regen and survival in general. My paladin however, with the addition of a relic of chi'ji allowed me to hold a mana advantage against a lot of teams that my shaman would have simply not lasted against because I would have run out of mana and died. I also had relic of chi'ji on my shaman so I was getting the most mana regen I could have but it simply wasn't enough against comps that wanted to play the long game. These quick successes led me to keep playing the paladin which resulted in our team jumping to top 5 on our battlegroup's ladder and since then our team has even been rank one for a short time with myself having only played a holy paladin competitively for this season.

    You can see why the teams for my shaman quickly dried up due to my apathy towards the class, my lack of gear which was becoming more obsolete, and not to mention my new found love for the power of holy paladin healing. Fear not! I still plan on playing my shaman in the future and the good news is that next season the pvp gear will not have upgrades available on them which is HUGE because the upgrades on the gear this season basically made it impossible to have any alt characters because you would never be able to catch up in gear so you were always at a disadvantage. Luckily blizzard fixed their mistake quickly and next season I will be able to gear up my shamans and actually make a good run at playing my shamans competitively.

    I hope this isn't too much of a disappointment but I believe the season will not be lasting much longer so I should be back to playing my shamans soon enough. Since I am unable to generate content for you guys I wanted to also let this post become a place where you could ask me all of the questions you have that you have wanted answered in my videos so I will be able to answer your questions and help you guys out if I can.


    Nevershock
    Therefore, resto shamans are not as strong in PvP as you all might think currently. In fact, we are also doing bad.
    Much love to Indicate for creating. Eis' work

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schadow View Post

    Therefore, resto shamans are not as strong in PvP as you all might think currently. In fact, we are also doing bad.
    Well I don't have that much experience on Resto shaman in PvP during MoP, but I think the issue as resto shaman in PvP aren't the actual heals, but other utility. (Basically you are vulnerable to stuns and silences). That can be fixed with other spells (like giving Shamanistic Rage to restos for example). Any of those possible cc-counter buffs resto shammies would get have ZERO impact on PvE. So what if you have Shamanistic Rage or Devotion Aura-like silencecounter? - It doesn't make shamans heal any more in PvE.

    My point (which you weren't even addressing, but talked about the same issue) was that the actual HEALS aren't the problem resto shamans face in PvP. But in PvE our heals are just too weak. Therefore the only possible spells to be buffed are AoE spells - Healing Rain and Chain Heal.
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by suffeli View Post
    Well I don't have that much experience on Resto shaman in PvP during MoP, but I think the issue as resto shaman in PvP aren't the actual heals, but other utility. (Basically you are vulnerable to stuns and silences). That can be fixed with other spells (like giving Shamanistic Rage to restos for example). Any of those possible cc-counter buffs resto shammies would get have ZERO impact on PvE. So what if you have Shamanistic Rage or Devotion Aura-like silencecounter? - It doesn't make shamans heal any more in PvE.

    My point (which you weren't even addressing, but talked about the same issue) was that the actual HEALS aren't the problem resto shamans face in PvP. But in PvE our heals are just too weak. Therefore the only possible spells to be buffed are AoE spells - Healing Rain and Chain Heal.
    It is not the utility we offer, but the actual raw healing we can do that is too low, the spells resto shamans cast in both pvp and pve are too low and too costly compared to other healers. in a PvE pov, it's that chain heal is too slow, cost too much and heals little and hw/ghw is on the same spot. in pvp, we might be able to push out an instant 300k crit heal, but that is also on a cooldown, AS.

    But we barely even use HW/GHW/HS in a PvE enviroment, I give you that. Or maybe we do use it, but it has low output. So I agree that Healing Rain and Chain Heal should be buffed (Riptide is okay in a way, we were never meant to be hotters, so it's okay in my pov), as those are spells that you don't use in PvP. But Resto PvP needs some loving too, as right now, all shamans go holy paladin, simply because it's that much better designed.

    Edit: we already have a silence immunity, from the 4 set bonus of season 12 for resto. But it's only 4 seconds and not baseline. Giving us Shamanistic Rage would be good for melee comps where they sit on you, I'm all in favor for that.
    Last edited by Schadow; 2013-03-08 at 09:37 AM.
    Much love to Indicate for creating. Eis' work

  9. #49
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schadow View Post
    You are all talking that resto shaman in pvp is quite strong and I will tell you now, they are not. so please, cut that bull. Yes, we were strong during cata seasons and even with the nerf to wind shear, we were still strong.

    But season 12, we were under holy paladins, paladins healed more for less and had more utility (like the Hands, immunity, silence immunity for 6 secs compared to us of 4), we were under monks with the fact they can both dps and heal at the same time and disc priests were strong aswell with their utilities.

    Following our silence nerf which was aimed for the PvP community (as I can only recall a few encounters silencing you in PvE), we were in a worse place then we already were (hence I still say that that silence nerf was completly unnecessary).

    Here is a post from Nsx, multi-glad on his shaman, that he also no longer played shaman during season 12 and his reasoning behind it:



    Therefore, resto shamans are not as strong in PvP as you all might think currently. In fact, we are also doing bad.
    Heh, and here I thought I was the only one who had difficulties.

    I admit I'm a PvP noob. I can't arena properly for the life of me, it's not fun, I have no inclination to put much effort into it BECAUSE I don't find it fun (though it wasn't too bad when I once got the points for the week with a hunter buddy of mine). BGs are fine if you have a few people who will peel for you. If you don't, have fun with some melee roflstomping you while a mage realises that their silence is off-CD and needs a shaman target.

    That said, I'm tired of people saying that I'm the OP class/spec for pvp. I always ask myself: If Ele isn't OP, why should resto be? Ele has always had more defenses than I. Seriously, sometimes I'd kill to have a thunderstorm as resto - but I know that what with the gap-closers, thunderstorm isn't really efficient against melee. And Ele was considered weak. So, I am considered the OP spec because of mastery? A mastery that only works with heals that you get off at all? How do you get a heal off in blanket silences and chain-stuns-cyclone-sunbeam-blind-whatever combos? When was the last time you saw a totem live longer than 2 seconds?

    It's like Blizzard put a sign over our heads when they said it along the lines of "totems are too powerful, so shaman can now no longer place them when silenced. Yes, totems are so powerful, you hear us. Kill those totems." Before Blizz 'informed' people about it, they ignored totems and rather whined about shamans being too powerful. Now we have totems that we can rarely even place when we need them the most, and if we manage to squeeze them out during a GCD that the enemy gracefully allowed us to have, they melee the totem instantly before you can even project it, because hey... projection doesn't work either when you're sitting in the next silence or CC.

    I'm also particularly fond of getting smacked with a silence while I'm sitting in a fear, so I can't totem that one. Sigh. I'm bad, I know. But I guess I'm the average shaman in a BG. And if I feel the need to talk to anyone about how badly I'm doing and how frustrating everything is, it's always "but resto is OP". People are like parrots.

    And, here's the best part. My most recent experience: I had to do BGs for my legendary questline on my priest alt. I went disc with her. Before 5.2. I have no PvP gear on my priest. I survived longer and more easily on my priest than I ever did on my shaman. And I only specced disc some 2 weeks ago to have some atonement fun in heroics and such. It was a startling experience really. Penance while moving is amazing, Cascade is like chainheal on crack. Pain sup, void shift. I had an AoE fear. I had that funny talent that fears people too. It was like "finally I see that my heals are doing something! And I have soooo many CCs!"

    And yet, I love my shamy too much to give up on her, be it PvP or PvE. And we're struggling in both. We can manage both too... but... it feels so much harder than it seems to be for everyone else.

    So... I'm really happy that someone who is good at this sort of stuff says something. Because the majority of people are just average, and when we complain, it's just whining and L2P and lol,noteven2kratingyouscrub.

  10. #50
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    Mastery is both the best and the worst stat for us in PvP, btw. You don't want people that low as a Chaos Bolt orsomethinglikethat will kill it, but it is the best stat statweighed for us.

    This is what's bothering me the most about it. I'm a haste freak, ever since the Sunwell fiasco, I don't feel comfortable without sitting on a decent amount of haste. During ToT, I should go full mastery, but I can't play like that, dumping my haste all the way to mastery, it just feels way too slow.

    But yeah, shamans ain't OP in PvP anymore. We aren't that bad as in PvE, but we certainly are not OP anymore. This was the worst season for everyone though and shamans scale gearwise way better then any other healer, so we will probably be stronger in s13 again. But this does not reflect the poor performance we have in PvE.
    Much love to Indicate for creating. Eis' work

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Schadow View Post
    Not only in 10 mans imo... HST heals 5 people, HTT heals 5 people, Healing Rain diminishes effects when there are more then 6 people in it, Chain Heal is still slow as hell that it is not wise to spam it as an aoe filler.

    while Spirit Shell is one button to shield the whole (WHOLE!) raid.
    lol you dont know priests very well.... there is no ability at all in the disc priest arsenal that will shield the whole raid with just one spell.

  12. #52
    Sometimes I feel as though resto shamans suffer from the rouge syndrome as in.

    bliz thinks resto shamans are hitting the balance point or target of how they believe healers should function....which in itself is fine. The problem isnt we arnt getting buffed its everyone else needs nerfs.

    I have no idea why Holy pally slipped through with 0 nerfs. Sure they hit disc pretty hard...but holy pally really wasnt that far behind.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by reepa View Post
    lol you dont know priests very well.... there is no ability at all in the disc priest arsenal that will shield the whole raid with just one spell.
    oh sorry, apologise, next time, I'll be a bit more specific, but I think everybody understood what was meant here instead of being a bit nitpicky.
    Much love to Indicate for creating. Eis' work

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafal View Post
    Sometimes I feel as though resto shamans suffer from the rouge syndrome as in.

    bliz thinks resto shamans are hitting the balance point or target of how they believe healers should function....which in itself is fine. The problem isnt we arnt getting buffed its everyone else needs nerfs.

    I have no idea why Holy pally slipped through with 0 nerfs. Sure they hit disc pretty hard...but holy pally really wasnt that far behind.
    Disc priests didn't get nerfed. They were buffed. PoH + Spirit Shell was nerfed, but all of their other tools got a huge buff.
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

  15. #55
    I feel the same pain... i raid 10man with a holy pala and disc priest, disc priest doesn't seem OP anymore, pala and disc HPS are very similar... but mine... geez... yesterday on council of elders on all tries i was constantly 10% below them in Healing Done, on HPS they could push it to 80-90 HPS.. i was sitting around 50-60.

    I try to reforge haste, mastery and crit... tried all the glyphs and talent combinations that i thank that could be of any use, and the 10% difference were always there .

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by suffeli View Post
    Disc priests didn't get nerfed. They were buffed. PoH + Spirit Shell was nerfed, but all of their other tools got a huge buff.
    The changes to Divine Aegis and how critical heals function means Disc has seen quite a throughput decrease. This has been offset somewhat by some buffs to Atonement based healing but, over all, they are no where near as strong as they were previously. PoH isn't a guaranteed DA any more so the ability to pre-shield is reduced and PoH no longer critting for 200% heals means that, when coupled with Spirit Shell, the amount of a buffer that can be created in the same amount of time is reduced.

    These changes were certainly needed to balance the classes, but they don't constitute an overall buff. Pure Atonement healing has debatably seen a buff though changes to the functionality of crit heals means that Disc can't pull low health percentages up as quickly.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by moko View Post
    I feel the same pain... i raid 10man with a holy pala and disc priest, disc priest doesn't seem OP anymore, pala and disc HPS are very similar... but mine... geez... yesterday on council of elders on all tries i was constantly 10% below them in Healing Done, on HPS they could push it to 80-90 HPS.. i was sitting around 50-60.

    I try to reforge haste, mastery and crit... tried all the glyphs and talent combinations that i thank that could be of any use, and the 10% difference were always there .
    I feel your pain. For me it was pally, druid, and me. I don't know... I was struggling with keeping people alive. I resorted to desperate Healing Surge spam even. I wrecked my mana, but still, people's health wouldn't go up. Pally and druid both outhealed me by far, even with CDs used. What was also hurting me was all the moving. It was terrible. And when we switched to 2 healers, we tried pally+me first but it just wasn't enough. Ascendance+HTT back-to-back wasn't even enough to heal through it all. We switched to druid+pally, didn't get much further though, but at least they weren't struggling so much with mana as I and had an easier time while healing on the move and healing spread raid.

    I really thought I could make it work when we did the first few pulls on this encounter on Wednesday, but yesterday, after all the improvements to our strategy, I was getting more and more lost every passing attempt. I feel as though I bought my shamy on eBay or something today without ever having played the spec when I have actually been playing it since BC. I'm lost. I really thought I could make it work, but for some reason, I don't seem to be able to.

  18. #58
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    I also have tried all the different talent combinations. I've changed my gems around like 5 times, reforges 10 times. Nothing helps. I tried full crit (9200 crit 9000 spirit 52% mastery), full spirit+full mastery (13k spirit 78% mastery), full spirit+30%haste+mastery (10k spirit, 7116 haste, 60% mastery). Tried Elemental Mastery, Primal Elementalist, Unleash, Ancestral Swiftness, Echo. Nothing made a change really.

    Out of those different gem/reforge setups full crit build worked the best for me and I had to be 24/7 on tank healing. Atleast the tank won't die and my hps/hpm is decent, but can't raid heal properly.
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

  19. #59
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    I think that for 10m a full crit or mastery build tied with the 4 set bonus will definetly improve the QoL for resto shamans there, but for 25-man, I don't see any other way then go deep (like 10k deep) into haste. The 4 set bonus seems lacking for us, but with full haste, we may be able to push enough chain heals to go back to old chain heal spam. As the range of Chain Heal is bigger then Healing Rain, combined with HST, it may sound more lucrative, solve our own problems with the Chain Heal cast time.

    My concern with it though is that other stats will be really gimped. I would like to try such a build out, but I am unable to get past 7.5k haste without severely reducing my mana.
    Much love to Indicate for creating. Eis' work

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Schadow View Post
    I think that for 10m a full crit or mastery build tied with the 4 set bonus will definetly improve the QoL for resto shamans there, but for 25-man, I don't see any other way then go deep (like 10k deep) into haste. The 4 set bonus seems lacking for us, but with full haste, we may be able to push enough chain heals to go back to old chain heal spam. As the range of Chain Heal is bigger then Healing Rain, combined with HST, it may sound more lucrative, solve our own problems with the Chain Heal cast time.

    My concern with it though is that other stats will be really gimped. I would like to try such a build out, but I am unable to get past 7.5k haste without severely reducing my mana.
    Even so... to base healing output only on a tier bonus... seems rather strange. Since other classes will have their bonus too, besides that, it will take 1-2 month until most guilds have 4 pieces.

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