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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    I am not saying don't count the top fight. What I am saying is that there are 3400 Resto Shaman parses for Jin'Rokh and 199 for Lei Shen, and it is not reasonable to give Jin'rokh 17 times the weight of Lei Shen in any reasonable discussion of class balance.
    That is not unreasonable argument. However 199 parses for LeiShin is not a great sample size either. But youre still comparing us to the top of the heap, not the average
    Last edited by Gendori; 2013-03-16 at 09:47 PM.

  2. #182
    Scarab Lord Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obesemidget View Post
    If you dont like raw Hps numbers look at the percentage of resto shamans being used as you get deeper into TOT. The further into the raid you go the less percentage of resto shaman's being used insists that we are less capable of helping our raid defeat the bosses.
    Where can I see that info? I didn't notice a bracket for that in Raidbots. Am I blind?

    EDIT: I am blind, and stupid. *switches from top100 to all parses*
    Last edited by Puupi; 2013-03-16 at 09:48 PM.
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by obesemidget View Post
    If you dont like raw Hps numbers look at the percentage of resto shamans being used as you get deeper into TOT. The further into the raid you go the less percentage of resto shaman's being used insists that we are less capable of helping our raid defeat the bosses.
    Had at least 1 Resto shaman in every fight for Normal Tot and it doesnt look like its going to change for heroic. We even used 2 on the first boss.

    So far ive seen a top guild use a resto shaman for every fight and 2 for Ji'kun heroics.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    Had at least 1 Resto shaman in every fight for Normal Tot and it doesnt look like its going to change for heroic. We even used 2 on the first boss.

    So far ive seen a top guild use a resto shaman for every fight and 2 for Ji'kun heroics.
    I dont really think there is much corelation between % of resto shamans depending on the depth of your progression int ToT, sure, some bosses, shaman has like 14%, but some still have shaman with 20% or more. but given the differences between outputs of other healers and shaman, Im more convinced normals were designed somewhere around raid having healers on the output level of shaman or slightly higher, making other healers overtuned for the content rather than shaman being undertuned. We shall see if shaman output is enough for heroics soon enough tho.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    I dont really think there is much corelation between % of resto shamans depending on the depth of your progression int ToT, sure, some bosses, shaman has like 14%, but some still have shaman with 20% or more. but given the differences between outputs of other healers and shaman, Im more convinced normals were designed somewhere around raid having healers on the output level of shaman or slightly higher, making other healers overtuned for the content rather than shaman being undertuned. We shall see if shaman output is enough for heroics soon enough tho.
    I'll clarify. At this time blood legion is using a shaman for every heroic encounter so far and did use 2 for ji'kun. You would think that in a guild racing for world first they wouldnt use classes that are useless? So it would seem they find the shamans useful because im sure thier roster is able to use other healers if they so wished.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    I'll clarify. At this time blood legion is using a shaman for every heroic encounter so far and did use 2 for ji'kun. You would think that in a guild racing for world first they wouldnt use classes that are useless? So it would seem they find the shamans useful because im sure thier roster is able to use other healers if they so wished.
    I dont believe people said shaman are useless, but their output is horrible compared to others. Im pretty sure 99% of people here would love to have output similar to others if it meant not being damn manabattery for the raid with 20% less output.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by stomination View Post
    I'll clarify. At this time blood legion is using a shaman for every heroic encounter so far and did use 2 for ji'kun. You would think that in a guild racing for world first they wouldnt use classes that are useless? So it would seem they find the shamans useful because im sure thier roster is able to use other healers if they so wished.
    The Blood Legion shaman has over 18k spirit because they use him as a mana bot.

  8. #188
    The blood legion shamans. They both stack spirit and crit.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonance View Post
    The Blood Legion shaman has over 18k spirit because they use him as a mana bot.
    It's just weird that he keeps stacking crit after having that much spirit.. Shouldn't he just reforge to better output stats like haste now that he can afford it?

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    It's just weird that he keeps stacking crit after having that much spirit.. Shouldn't he just reforge to better output stats like haste now that he can afford it?
    I believe they both have the Healing tide and Healing stream breakpoints right now. It would take close to 2000 haste to get an additional riptide tick and about another 2000 for healing rain.

    The crit and spirit is mainly to be a mana battery while being able to spam heals on prbly the tank so there isnt any omg the tank died all of a sudden issues.

  11. #191
    Haste is really a pretty poor output stat outside of haste breakpoints. All that it does is increases mana expenditure for a marginal cast time increase (when HW/GHW are already at 1.4 seconds at that haste level). I have 16,000 Spirit and you still definitely can not spam HS/GHW or Chain Heal outside of HR/HST/RT cooldowns, so it isn't like mana becomes a complete non issue at those Spirit levels.

    Therefore, it's down to stacking Crit or stacking Mastery after Spirit. From the 3 heroics I have seen so far (Jin'rokh, Horridon, Tortos), mastery in 25 man raids doesn't really have much more value than it did in T14. People just don't really dip that much. Unless your AoE output is landing on targets at about 65% HP or lower or your single target output is landing on targets at about 35% HP or lower, Crit is a better throughput stat than Mastery. I have yet to see any 25H encounter this expansion where HP pools are often enough below those thresholds to warrant taking Mastery over Crit.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorschachs View Post
    It's just weird that he keeps stacking crit after having that much spirit.. Shouldn't he just reforge to better output stats like haste now that he can afford it?
    Just making a wild guess why he is stacking spirit/crit so much:

    1) HR right on cd without using UE. That requires heavy spirit to pull off and make his HR crit alot to make it worth casting without UE.
    2) He is using HS ALOT. Probably the only spell he is spamming right after he puts down HR.
    3) As everyone said, high spirit cause he is a mana bot. And high crit so that his HTT and Ascendance crit alot.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 07:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    Haste is really a pretty poor output stat outside of haste breakpoints. All that it does is increases mana expenditure for a marginal cast time increase (when HW/GHW are already at 1.4 seconds at that haste level). I have 16,000 Spirit and you still definitely can not spam HS/GHW or Chain Heal outside of HR/HST/RT cooldowns, so it isn't like mana becomes a complete non issue at those Spirit levels.

    Therefore, it's down to stacking Crit or stacking Mastery after Spirit. From the 3 heroics I have seen so far (Jin'rokh, Horridon, Tortos), mastery in 25 man raids doesn't really have much more value than it did in T14. People just don't really dip that much. Unless your AoE output is landing on targets at about 65% HP or lower or your single target output is landing on targets at about 35% HP or lower, Crit is a better throughput stat than Mastery. I have yet to see any 25H encounter this expansion where HP pools are often enough below those thresholds to warrant taking Mastery over Crit.
    Never saw the point of going 5676 haste break point to get an extra Riptide tick. You got an extra Riptide tick. Congratulations? A tick on Riptide doesn't justify loosing so much mastery and especially crit and spirit. According to me, mastery looses it's charm right around 45%-48%. I consider 50% mastery to be too much, even for heroics. Crit and spirit are the only stats I feel keep scaling well.

    The only two haste break point worth going for are 3764 (HTT/HST) which you can reach with T14 normal gear and then 7613 to get extra tick on HR (although this is debatable for ToT), which you can get with ToT gear (not sure if normal mode gear can get you there without sacrificing important stats because I haven't done alot of ToT an don't have alot of ToT gear).

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 07:26 AM ----------

    Two logs mean jack. There have been encounters where I ended up killing the boss with 50% of mana remaining and using MTT once. Doesn't make me comfortable for fights that require near perfect mana management and even then you're struggling for mana at the end.

    You are suppose to aim for enough spirit to make you last the most brutal and mana intense encounters, not just get enough spirit to make you last the easiest encounters to heal.

    6k spirit is nothing even with all the glyphs, extra mana regen, another Shaman, or Priest or getting Innervate.

    We ARE poor in this tier. 25%-40% behind the top healer on every fight. Every other healer at worst is behind 10% of the top healer on every fight bar a couple of very rare occasion like Ji Kun for Monks (the ONLY fight where Resto Shamans are 5th).
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Never saw the point of going 5676 haste break point to get an extra Riptide tick. You got an extra Riptide tick. Congratulations? A tick on Riptide doesn't justify loosing so much mastery and especially crit and spirit. According to me, mastery looses it's charm right around 45%-48%. I consider 50% mastery to be too much, even for heroics. Crit and spirit are the only stats I feel keep scaling well.

    The only two haste break point worth going for are 3764 (HTT/HST) which you can reach with T14 normal gear and then 7613 to get extra tick on HR (although this is debatable for ToT), which you can get with ToT gear (not sure if normal mode gear can get you there without sacrificing important stats because I haven't done alot of ToT an don't have alot of ToT gear)

    Not sure on what difficulty you raid, but as a 10 man raider riptide is usually in the top 3 of healing spells so the extra tick becomes well worth it. That and it makes glyphed CH a lot less annoying to use as it's out our only AoE spell that we can use on all encounters due to the lack of stacking this tier. And the only thing I've lost for my breakpoint was crit rating, I didn't lose a single point of mastery nor spirit and the results are satisfying.

    Note that when you acquire the 4 set bonus mastery and haste suddenly become a lot better throughput stats because crit loses its AA exclusivity.
    It's the internet. You never know if people are either sarcastic or just bad.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by takolin View Post
    Not sure on what difficulty you raid, but as a 10 man raider riptide is usually in the top 3 of healing spells so the extra tick becomes well worth it.
    Riptide being your #1 doesn't necessarily mean extra ticks are giving you anything. Extra ticks come to the END of the HoT and the last ticks of the HoT are most likely to be overhealing anyway.
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

  15. #195
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by suffeli View Post
    Riptide being your #1 doesn't necessarily mean extra ticks are giving you anything. Extra ticks come to the END of the HoT and the last ticks of the HoT are most likely to be overhealing anyway.
    Tell that to a druid, its simply not true anymore. Theres so many fights right now that have constant damage going out, that the last riptide tick is more likely to heal than not heal these days, On the flipside, then why are people taking glyph of riptide then? It turns your unique frontloaded heal into a HoT that does nothing but overheal!

  16. #196
    Scarab Lord Puupi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    .


    Tell that to a druid, its simply not true anymore. Theres so many fights right now that have constant damage going out, that the last riptide tick is more likely to heal than not heal these days, On the flipside, then why are people taking glyph of riptide then? It turns your unique frontloaded heal into a HoT that does nothing but overheal!
    There is a vast difference between Riptide and Rejuvenation. Reju is 12 sec HoT which ticks for double the amount compared to Riptide (18sec). And about glyph of riptide, it's highly situational and mostly utter shit. If you use it for other than very movement heavy fights where you need those instant casts, you are doing it wrong.
    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." - H. L. Mencken

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Gendori View Post
    .


    Tell that to a druid, its simply not true anymore. Theres so many fights right now that have constant damage going out, that the last riptide tick is more likely to heal than not heal these days, On the flipside, then why are people taking glyph of riptide then? It turns your unique frontloaded heal into a HoT that does nothing but overheal!
    Except that Rejuv is about 50% more stronger then Riptide (alot more when you use glyph for Riptide), doesn't have a cd and costs less mana. It is also a Resto Druid's most used spell I believe.

    Who are the people that are using Glyph of Riptide? It's the most useless glyph cause it weakens your one instant spell into something slightly better then Earthliving procs and costs a fuck-ton of mana in the process.

    And with your theory of 6k spirit. You can't possibly support glyph of Riptide. It's sucks too much mana and you need really high spirit to maintain it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  18. #198
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    I've been kinda silent regarding this subject, though my feelings still say quite the same. Thanks to the one who made my post been posted on the US forums.

    I have noticed that if Resurgence is being done properly, it does regenerate an insane amount of mana. But it's gambling with your mana pool, something that most healers do not like/recommend, of which I am one of them. Yes, it can work, but as opposed that we are stacking spirit, you are stacking crit. You are sacrificing one stat for another and, even worse, you still need to be lucky to be able to get the same throughput and mana regen, making our hps different per fight and unreliable.
    Much love to Indicate for creating. Eis' work

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by takolin View Post
    Not sure on what difficulty you raid, but as a 10 man raider riptide is usually in the top 3 of healing spells so the extra tick becomes well worth it. That and it makes glyphed CH a lot less annoying to use as it's out our only AoE spell that we can use on all encounters due to the lack of stacking this tier. And the only thing I've lost for my breakpoint was crit rating, I didn't lose a single point of mastery nor spirit and the results are satisfying.

    Note that when you acquire the 4 set bonus mastery and haste suddenly become a lot better throughput stats because crit loses its AA exclusivity.
    I raid 10-man as well. Riptide being in the top 3 or even the top spell is situational and doesn't happen alot. I am getting all sorts of top spells in ToT so far. HTT is my top spell on Tortos for example. A single tick of Riptide right at the end of the spell of a 18 sec duration won't benefit you much if you can use the stats needed to get that tick into extra Spirit (so you can use your stronger spells more) or crit (to get more crits from HR and HST most importantly, not to mention, every other healing spell you have and get more Resurgence).

    If you get 5676 haste just from your gear even after reforging out from haste, then it's fine, but to reforge spirit, crit and even mastery to haste just to get one extra tick from Riptide once every 6 sec is a waste of other more valuable stats.

    Haste is pretty weak for us this expansion outside of couple of haste breakpoints like the first HST/HTT and the 2nd tick of HR, which I already said, is very debatable for ToT.

    Edit: Missed your part about T15 4P bonus. The reasons you mentioned are some of the reasons why this 4P sucks ass.

    1) It's forcing you to pick stats that don't benefit you much. Mastery becomes useless after a point because of absorbs and how fast the raid healed. Haste scales poorly because outside of break points, it doesn't give us much. Extremely high haste points will make us cast our spells a little faster, but our problem just isn't from our spell being casted slow.

    2) It devalues crit, your 2nd best scaling stat. Loosing crit for haste will lower your chances of getting resurgence, causing mana issues. Regardless of how random mana return from crit is, the more crit you have, the more chances of mana regen you get.

    3) It's forcing you to use single target healing spells. Resto Shamans aren't designed to heal the raid with single target spells. Our spells are too weak and our single target spells not critting devalues AA in the first place. I get 105k HW crit at max hp, half of that is 52.5k, that is a 15.75k AA proc, when I get a crit HW, it will give me 31.5k AA proc. The less crit I have, the weaker my AA gets.

    There are some other problems with the 4P, like how Shamans get the weakest (maybe second weakest) healing 4P in this tier, when they got a pretty weak (maybe weakest) 4P in the previous tier too.

    Our 4P needs to be changed to something that gives us about 5%-8% healing increase because that's how strong pretty much every other healer's 4P is.

    I dunno why Blizz is giving us 4P sets which "buffs" our single target heals in this expansion, when they should be giving us 4P that buffs our already weak, rigid, clunky aoe healing.

    It looks to me Blizz has lost control over Shamans altogether, and they have no idea how to fix them, so they just go with whatever they feel will frustrate the Shaman community even more.
    Last edited by Waterisbest; 2013-03-17 at 01:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Culnar
    Sometimes people act like blizzard is their friend who betrayed them and now they're pissed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulpei View Post
    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  20. #200
    that would be nice if we could do it well enough to make a dent on the meters. i believe disc priest monks and druids can all out dps us.

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