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  1. #101
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Day 3 and still at bottom. Not much change at all.
    Battletag: Rhaegas#1141
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    "You can call me Queen V"

  2. #102
    I really dont know what blizzard is thinking... Fire was weak on 5.1 servers, instead of buffing it a little bit they nerfed it in several ways:
    - 10% Pyroblast Nerf (which is also a direct nerf to ignite and combustion)
    - Invocation is weaker than before
    - Living bomb can't be spread anymore making it basically useless

    At the same time they buffed every other DPS-class. Warlocks only got their Sacrifice Grimoire nerfed... guess what? They are simply playing with a pet again and do the same DPS as before.

    Even when we are popping bloodlust in the beginning and i get really lucky with crits and can even pull off 5 Instantpyros in a row (HS Pyro -> PoM Pyro -> HS Pyro -> Alter Time -> HS Pyro -> PoM Pyro) resulting in a decent Combustion with 45k (90k+crit) Ticks my DPS is laughable when compared to other classes. And after Combustion falls off i have to struggle to not get beaten by our Monktank.

    Gear isn't the solution either. I got lucky with drops which gave me 4% additional crit since the Patch bringing me to 35% Crit selfbuffed (ilvl 514) and it didn't make any difference. As i already said its not like i'm unlucky with crits or HS procs... with ~50% Crit on Fireball i get Pyros on a regular base, but it seems like even when i would be able to spam pyros i can't get past the warlocks and rogues.

    Arcane seems to pull of quite good numbers under Patchwerk-Conditions, but the spec is even worse for movement fights than it was before. We still have to use RoP and got no scorch anymore. As long as there are no hard

    Frost is still in a "no-mans-land" between being OP in PvP and worth worthless in PvE. Why don't they give us Deep-Freeze DMG back? It was the perfect solution to give PvE Frostmages a high DPS spell that PvP Mages can't use. Make it hit for 600k and we have both a powerful and fun to use ability which could push Frosts singletarget DPS into a direction where it is actually good without having any effect on PVP.

    In the end i doubt something will change quickly... it's like TBC: Blizzard knows mages are underpowered, but as they think that there are too much mages and not enough other classes they just leave it this way.

  3. #103
    Have to keep watching this but I know I am doing 6k to 8k less on average in ToT so far. I was benched for a bit for a boomkin but fortunately the boomkin was fail and I was brought back in for the moment. That has never happened before. All I can say is, it isnt fun to be weaker while everyone else gets stronger and get benched and be forced to sit out when you cant even bring damage anymore (and as a mage it's pretty much all you bring).

    Will have to wait and see what happens but I wont pay for something that I dont enjoy doing. It's only week 1 so we will see what happens.

  4. #104
    The Patient Mûe's Avatar
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    The ONE! Thing I'd like to have explained to me is why at the middle of T14 my Pyro crits go up tp 450k with everything up. Now: About 40+ itemslvls up and with a 10% nerv to pyro i can't get them above 380k.

    I am getting weeker, for stronger bosses... This makes no fuckin sense at all. Im sorry

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandacally View Post
    Erm.

    Take a look at your meters on terrace, 2 mages always behind of everyone else.
    On Jin'Rokh, if you really have 5 ilvl less than the AffliLock, yes, he sucks (Or RNG, you had more uptime on +X damage). There's not way frost is above Affli in this world.
    Horridon > 2 mages bottom dps
    Council > Bottom dps.

    You can't say frost mage are competitive based on one fight, were on all the others your 2 mages were bottom dps by a large margin.

    I hope you understand i'm not trying to undermine you or that i'm saying that in an offensive way, i'm just correcting a false statement .
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  6. #106
    Banned Bakis's Avatar
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    3 days since patch..
    Mages might be low, if so buff them and nerf them when the scale better.
    Obviously mage players being mage players they will moan like fuck when they get nerfed due to scaling issues but that is a later problem.

    Let some time pass if mages got overnerfed in PvE they will be buffed, it is the pet class of designers

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandacally View Post
    Atualy yes they suck really hard this dps is pretty low on this boss.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    Erm.

    Take a look at your meters on terrace, 2 mages always behind of everyone else.
    On Jin'Rokh, if you really have 5 ilvl less than the AffliLock, yes, he sucks (Or RNG, you had more uptime on +X damage). There's not way frost is above Affli in this world.
    Horridon > 2 mages bottom dps
    Council > Bottom dps.

    You can't say frost mage are competitive based on one fight, were on all the others your 2 mages were bottom dps by a large margin.

    I hope you understand i'm not trying to undermine you or that i'm saying that in an offensive way, i'm just correcting a false statement .
    No, terrace normal was just for achievements thats why there is no competitive dps, so please count that out.

    And when does DMG really count? In Encounters where DPS are tight or there is a DPS race, which is Jin Rokh.
    On horridon, the Mages are bottom because of encounter mechanics (which strongly favors execute classes, or heavy CD classes because boss gets 200% more dmg in the end), not because they are bad; if you compare DMG on the Adds (which is more important than on the boss) then frost is quite fine.
    On council, Mages are again inheriently bad because we are not multi-doters, so this might not reflect many fights. Then again, you might ask, where are the fights we shine in this tier? (like moonkin and affi and frost dk can shine on like 50% of all ToT fights)

    It is true that we mages might not be top tier on many fights, but we are not "dead" or whatever, you can still be middle of the pack easily, and that is all I was suggesting.

    Atualy yes they suck really hard this dps is pretty low on this boss.
    I always love those trolls who just flame others out of the blue. We are surely not the best guild out there, but we are doing quite decently (usually top100 kills), so you might want to turn down your worthless opinion especially since I must assume you are a mouthbreather who has not even finished the old content on heroic.
    Last edited by Pandacally; 2013-03-08 at 11:09 AM.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by lostdrewid View Post
    Try telling that to the people who were on the bottom time and time again. No, you don't get off that easy. I don't care if you're low, you've had your time to shine. You'll get your time to shine again. Stop complaining when others have a moment in the sun for once.
    Oh so i shouold go cancel my sub since blizzard realise another cocntent or what ? We dont have weak or not best dmg. We are competly useleess class what isnt worth to bring to raid.

  10. #110
    Mechagnome Xzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandacally View Post
    words
    Listen, we get that your mage had good procs or his shit lined up real nice on that fight or that your lock had a bad time or maybe a combination of all. But your one log does not make this look any better. I'm not even sure what in the blazes are you trying to prove here. We are losing raidspots and I'm just waiting for my GM to ask me how I feel about going back to my lock, or maybe if I'd want to chill out on the ret pally a bit that I've been messing around on before the patch hit. The only reason I'm not twiddling my thumbs, sitting on the bench in front of the instance entrace is because I outgear everybody else in our raid, making my dps look 'in-line' with the rest even though I'm actually shitting bricks every time trying to not embarass myself too much on the meters. But they'll figure it out soon enough unless changes are made and then it's over.

  11. #111
    High Overlord Adeltor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eihwaz View Post
    If the numbers are actually low, now , they'll do something about it. There's no way they'll let the 3 mages spec being bottom tier during a whole tier (assuming those numbers are right)

    Come on guys, cheer up a bit

    I think lower geared mages (like me) are doomed until we get some gear or even 2-set, dunno. The ones that progress faster and get gear faster might have a chance topping on some fights. I'm really concerned and thinking of rerolling.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    I want to feel the zomg in my dpspants when I throw pyros at someones face. How do you keep that feeling of 'zomg' in your pants while still nerfing throughput?

    Sig by Shyama!

  12. #112
    I dont see the big issue here - Have only been behind a few sp's thus far - frost is freaking good <3

  13. #113
    Behind boomkin, afflocks, sp, rogues on most fights (working on megeara).

    Frost is decent, far from freaking good imo, i had a really hard time trying to not be bottom dps on pure single target like megeara yesterday. (Bugged frozen orb doesn't help either)

  14. #114
    High Overlord Adeltor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivalen View Post
    Oh shut up - if you were any good you'd get something done. You bitched about the mvp when MoP was about to be released - with the same sort of words. Look what happened to arcane..... so much for your prescience.
    Not to be zomgDPS' lawyer but you do not make sense. Or you are Lhivera himself. Either take a look of the PTR discussions and testings zomgDPS did or shut up, because i didn't see you testing on the PTR or putting some of the numbers in here!
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by zomgDPS View Post
    I want to feel the zomg in my dpspants when I throw pyros at someones face. How do you keep that feeling of 'zomg' in your pants while still nerfing throughput?

    Sig by Shyama!

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by willemh View Post
    Living bomb didnt exist back then. Living bomb is a talent that was added in WoTLK.

    Improved shadow bolt was completely different from scorch. Scorch was more closely related to the shadow priests shadow weaving (9% increased fire damage vs 10% increased shadow damage). Both shadow weaving and scorch were debuffs that just had to be maintained on the target. Improved shadow bolt however worked completely different as I explained above. The more warlocks with improved shadowbolt you stacked, the stronger it became. Therefor it was extremely beneficial to go for a 'shadow setup' rather then a 'fire setup', and this is what top guilds did during sunwell.

    I'm also sure rogues with dual glaves were very capable of beating 2.8k dps, I clearly remember seeing logs from both hunters and rogues beating 3k dps on terron gorefiend and brutallus.
    Top guilds in Sunwell used fire destro so you're completely wrong there. In BT and MH shadow was used, but once you got into full T6 minus sunwell gear, locks went fire destro(for old school you actually do need to specify since there used to be shadow destro). So no you're pretty inaccurate on your timeline.

  16. #116
    Mechagnome Xzan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    Top guilds in Sunwell used fire destro so you're completely wrong there. In BT and MH shadow was used, but once you got into full T6 minus sunwell gear, locks went fire destro(for old school you actually do need to specify since there used to be shadow destro). So no you're pretty inaccurate on your timeline.
    I'm pretty sure you're wrong on this one. While fire destro was best personal dps, shadow Destro was best raid dps because of ISB debuff... :>

  17. #117
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Few things:

    - There's not enough data, it's absurd anyone is even trying to pull conclusions from it.
    - Do you know how things will look when you're not in outdated gear?
    - The data is skewed since this is all first kill crap logs (See that giant drop in dps once the patch hit?)
    - Someone has to fill that lower quarter, at least mages got to dominate for quite a while?
    I am the lucid dream
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  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by purebalance View Post
    Top guilds in Sunwell used fire destro so you're completely wrong there. In BT and MH shadow was used, but once you got into full T6 minus sunwell gear, locks went fire destro(for old school you actually do need to specify since there used to be shadow destro). So no you're pretty inaccurate on your timeline.
    As been said above shadow was better because of the improved shadowbolt debuff, especially when stacking multiple warlocks. For reference you can see this in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKVyzdeFDr8 the world first kill of SK vs Kil'jaeden. Ekye a well known mage from SK, and later on an officer and guildleader of ensidia, who played his warlock named Ekyo in sunwell because it was far superior over his mage, you can see he indeed uses shadowbolt in the movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Few things:
    - Do you know how things will look when you're not in outdated gear?
    Shoudnt dps be balanced for all levels of gear, and not only full heroic current content gear? That point of view makes little sense to me. The large majority of the players wont get past ilvl 510-520 this patch.
    Last edited by willemh; 2013-03-08 at 01:56 PM.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Few things:

    - There's not enough data, it's absurd anyone is even trying to pull conclusions from it.
    - Do you know how things will look when you're not in outdated gear?
    - The data is skewed since this is all first kill crap logs (See that giant drop in dps once the patch hit?)
    - Someone has to fill that lower quarter, at least mages got to dominate for quite a while?
    1. Completely correct. We will need to wait a bit more to confirm it.

    2. Why would anyone with current gear care how dps will look like when we are ilvl535 or something. You are not playing the game 4 months in the future. You are playing it now with current gear.

    3. Correct, the data is skewed but those first kills do not happen just for mages. They happened for every single class and spec participating in the kill. The current data may actually be the most valid data you could get. Continuing on from now data regarding mages will be even more skewed because you will see less mages participating in logs because everyone noticed how bad we are currently doing and, more often than not, we will be benched.

    4. You are right. Someone has to be at the bottom, but the thing is, the difference between mages and other classes is to big. That's all there is to it.

  20. #120
    As a raid leader... why would you bring a pure DPS class who are doing sub par dps? We have 0 raid cool downs... 0 raid utility and we do bad dps.... keep the bench warm mages!

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