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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandacally View Post

    I always love those trolls who just flame others out of the blue. We are surely not the best guild out there, but we are doing quite decently (usually top100 kills), so you might want to turn down your worthless opinion especially since I must assume you are a mouthbreather who has not even finished the old content on heroic.

    But , your fire mage is 512 ilvl and he's last.
    Do you find it normal ? I mean 145k dps with a +50% dps buff at 511 ilvl is indee not good , mainly due to the fact that fire got overnerfed. It was already bad in 5.1 , and now its even worse.
    And the worst thing about it , is that fire is apparently the best mage spec with frost atm , and it's still at the very bottom.

  2. #122
    Brewmaster Dutchmagoz's Avatar
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    Rank 7 fire mage on WoL on the hydra, third in my raid with no one else better than rank 30 on that fight.. Fun times

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 05:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakee View Post
    But , your fire mage is 512 ilvl and he's last.
    Do you find it normal ? I mean 145k dps with a +50% dps buff at 511 ilvl is indee not good , mainly due to the fact that fire got overnerfed. It was already bad in 5.1 , and now its even worse.
    And the worst thing about it , is that fire is apparently the best mage spec with frost atm , and it's still at the very bottom.
    145k with 512 ilvl is TERRIBLE on that fight... I did 170k with 505 ilvl (higher now) and I made like 5 mistakes. So can't really take that mage as an example of how mages are. But OT: Mages are really low atm indeed.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 05:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    3 days since patch..
    Mages might be low, if so buff them and nerf them when the scale better.
    Obviously mage players being mage players they will moan like fuck when they get nerfed due to scaling issues but that is a later problem.

    Let some time pass if mages got overnerfed in PvE they will be buffed, it is the pet class of designers
    I don't care if I'm competitive with 535 item level. Only thing that matters to me is being competitive during PROGRESS which only lasts like a month or two, and you won't be high enough item level to be competitive yet then.

  3. #123
    People don't understand that.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandacally View Post

    Yea you link 1 fight, than look at Horridon & Council of Elders, they're barely above the tanks!

    I can get blizzard wants to balance dps when you're at the average ilvl 535+, but getting there is the issue...
    Last edited by lootinc; 2013-03-08 at 05:18 PM.

  5. #125
    Just finished 12/12 Normal yesterday.

    There's nothing quite like getting 95th-100th percentiles on epeenbot while floating at the middle / bottom of the pack in your raid group. It's almost surreal how even with the most amazing rng I felt like I couldn't push to the top of the meters. Also it feels like our mage bomb is so weak that it's really only useful for the 15 seconds of pyromaniac. In most cases multi-dotting was actually a dps loss for me. Mage 5 target cleave seems very weak, I feel like a big part of that is due to the lack of bomb spread. Living bomb is virtually worthless for fire now. There's a serious problem right now and it's about more than just our crit chance.

    I know that with more gear I will do more damage (duh) but this is a bigger problem than just scaling. Those saying we should just hold out until we are full bis are missing the point. It's our dps now that matters now, and if in the future things get out of hand then that's something that should be promptly addressed in the future.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Pandacally View Post
    I was top DPS on Jin Rokh with Frost and 5 Itemlevel behind the other casters (Moonkin, Affliction, Fire, Shadow), so Frost isn't too bad in single target dps, I would even say its quite competitive.
    ur lock...and prolly boomkin too....are bad

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Few things:

    - There's not enough data, it's absurd anyone is even trying to pull conclusions from it.
    - Do you know how things will look when you're not in outdated gear?
    - The data is skewed since this is all first kill crap logs (See that giant drop in dps once the patch hit?)
    - Someone has to fill that lower quarter, at least mages got to dominate for quite a while?
    I am no in outtaded gear and still others classes doing hell of more dmg than me and i am biss 5.1 mage with 516 item lvl. You guys really think gear will fix our dmg problem ? You think thaht other clases doesnt scale too or what ? Yes we might scaled with geat to point where other dmgers are right now. Like this 100k now ---> 140k with biss gear and others 140k now ----> 180k after biss no gear will not fix this problem at all.

  8. #128
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by audacitymage View Post
    The top 100 ie good rng fire parses are middle of the pack. If you look at all parses instead of just top 100 literally all three mages specs in last place.
    Top Fire parses SHOULD ALWAYS BE #1 or #2 because of amazing RNG. The fact that Top Fire is MIDDLE is pathetic.

    Also, Arcane should be #1 on any standstill fight due to how a "turret" should work. Kinda stupid methinks.

    Quote Originally Posted by squizz View Post
    What annoys me is that we bring nothing other then DPS to the raid.. Oh sorry.. AB and some food... As far as i'm concerned the top DPS in this game should be single purpose classes.. Mages, Locks, Hunters, Rogues..
    Locks: Healthstones, Gateways, way better utility, and multi-dotting. Oh and a Battle Rez.
    Hunters: Wild Card on buffs, way better AoE/Cleave and multi-dotting.
    Rogues: Smoke Bomb, way better AoE/Cleave.

    See the theme here? We bring literally nothing but good ST DPS. Fire brings okay cleave on bunched up targets, but only on 3-4 of them.

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  9. #129
    I don't understand what everyone's crying about. Mages seem fine to me.

  10. #130
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foliuss View Post
    I don't understand what everyone's crying about. Mages seem fine to me.
    I assume you only doing AH and some questing?

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Foliuss View Post
    I don't understand what everyone's crying about. Mages seem fine to me.
    Logs show that their damage is pretty low.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenpete View Post
    I assume you only doing AH and some questing?
    No, I've done 11/12 bosses on live now and my damage has fine for most fights in my opinion. I think since people are not absolutely shitting on everyone else on meters like we have before in this expansion that we are broken or underpowered or something. If anything I'd say we're at the very least middle of the pack and on some fights we can still top meters.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Foliuss View Post
    No, I've done 11/12 bosses on live now and my damage has fine for most fights in my opinion. I think since people are not absolutely shitting on everyone else on meters like we have before in this expansion that we are broken or underpowered or something. If anything I'd say we're at the very least middle of the pack and on some fights we can still top meters.
    No, you're wrong. You're only feeling that your damage is fine because the rest of your group isn't giving you any competition. Mage damage is too low and that's an undeniable fact that you can verify yourself by checking logs. Now, it's not so low that it's the end of the world, but it is lower than it should.

    Although Frost is doing better than the other two specs, but it could use another little buff. Maybe a 2-3% buff overall. Maybe even 5%.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Shahad View Post
    No, you're wrong. You're only feeling that your damage is fine because the rest of your group isn't giving you any competition. Mage damage is too low and that's an undeniable fact that you can verify yourself by checking logs. Now, it's not so low that it's the end of the world, but it is lower than it should.

    Although Frost is doing better than the other two specs, but it could use another little buff. Maybe a 2-3% buff overall. Maybe even 5%.
    I can guarantee you its not because I don't have competition. I have a feeling that most of the people complaining are trying to play fire without enough gear. Fire is going to be dogshit with anything less than like 510 ilevel so maybe that's why logs seem so bad. Once you actually have gear fire is completely fine in my opinion.

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Foliuss View Post
    I can guarantee you its not because I don't have competition. I have a feeling that most of the people complaining are trying to play fire without enough gear. Fire is going to be dogshit with anything less than like 510 ilevel so maybe that's why logs seem so bad. Once you actually have gear fire is completely fine in my opinion.
    A good majority of the people with 12/12(or close to that) Normal have an ilvl above 500(heck, my alt without anywhere near full T14 heroic progression is at 500 ilvl, and I haven't valor capped him after the first two weeks of MoP) so that point is moot. Also, logs show Arcane AND Fire doing pretty badly, with Frost doing better, but not great. So, again, moot.

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Foliuss View Post
    I can guarantee you its not because I don't have competition. I have a feeling that most of the people complaining are trying to play fire without enough gear. Fire is going to be dogshit with anything less than like 510 ilevel so maybe that's why logs seem so bad. Once you actually have gear fire is completely fine in my opinion.
    Welcome to mmochamp! Glad to see another cutting edge mage join our ranks.

    Few things:

    Keep in mind that the ptr testing we did was before the pyroblast nerf. Gearing will help, sure, but we still have a long ways to go.

    Middle of the pack is where blizzard wants dps to be tuned to. I'm fine with middle of the pack as long as I have some other niche other than damage (ie: combat res, defensive raid cooldown, offensive raid cooldown, movement speed raid cooldown, good aoe, or any of the other raid utility other classes have). We currently don't provide something that is already pretty much a given in a 25man setting (crit/sp buff, lust, food). Aside from damage we have no identity as a class, which I feel is the bigger problem. Because of this middle of the pack wont do, especially since most of the time it would probably be better for our raids if we were just warlocks instead. I'm not saying we should always be #1 but until we find some other use in raids other than middle of the pack damage we kind of fall short of other classes.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Foliuss View Post
    I can guarantee you its not because I don't have competition. I have a feeling that most of the people complaining are trying to play fire without enough gear. Fire is going to be dogshit with anything less than like 510 ilevel so maybe that's why logs seem so bad. Once you actually have gear fire is completely fine in my opinion.
    I can quarantee that nobody here is going to agree with you unless you post even a bit of evidence. Now ofc you might get incredibly lucky and crit every fireball, but the opposite atm is much more likely. And throwing the magical 510 itemlevel around aint going to help your case. Sure mages do get incredible in the end, but thats due us getting stupid ammounts of crit.. but thats not going to happen at 510, hell not even 515 unless those upgrades you get are said crit items..

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by mrgreenthump View Post
    I can quarantee that nobody here is going to agree with you unless you post even a bit of evidence. Now ofc you might get incredibly lucky and crit every fireball, but the opposite atm is much more likely. And throwing the magical 510 itemlevel around aint going to help your case. Sure mages do get incredible in the end, but thats due us getting stupid ammounts of crit.. but thats not going to happen at 510, hell not even 515 unless those upgrades you get are said crit items..
    Ya fire isn't going to be good without stupid amounts of crit. I don't know if i just got lucky or something with upgrade but right now I'm sitting at 516 with a pretty hefty amount of crit (13834 rating). I think at crit levels like mine fire is performing just fine relative to other classes.

    I can't link my armory because I don't have enough posts, but my mage is Folius on Zul'jin.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Foliuss View Post
    Ya fire isn't going to be good without stupid amounts of crit. I don't know if i just got lucky or something with upgrade but right now I'm sitting at 516 with a pretty hefty amount of crit (13834 rating). I think at crit levels like mine fire is performing just fine relative to other classes.

    I can't link my armory because I don't have enough posts, but my mage is Folius on Zul'jin.
    yes 13800 is certainly something I would consider good, My mage has 10300(515 ilevel) atm so only the crit rating gives you allmost 6% more crit which turns into around 7.5% more crit on fireball, which is goddamn huge

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchmagoz View Post
    Rank 7 fire mage on WoL on the hydra, third in my raid with no one else better than rank 30 on that fight.. Fun times

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 05:01 PM ----------



    145k with 512 ilvl is TERRIBLE on that fight... I did 170k with 505 ilvl (higher now) and I made like 5 mistakes. So can't really take that mage as an example of how mages are. But OT: Mages are really low atm indeed.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 05:07 PM ----------



    I don't care if I'm competitive with 535 item level. Only thing that matters to me is being competitive during PROGRESS which only lasts like a month or two, and you won't be high enough item level to be competitive yet then.
    It is a telling sign when ppl rank in the top 50 or lower out of all ppl of their spec for dmg or healing but cant beat the other specs in their own raid.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
    "Not everything on the internet is true." -- Abraham Lincoln
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