1. #1

    Dubious about shadowcraft

    Currently scaling mastery at 1.297 and haste at 1.282, and occasionally attempting to reforge into haste and not mastery?
    All i got was a new cloak, when before haste was ~1.080? Shadowcraft was down so new update bugging haste or haste actually increased in value?
    Thanks.
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  2. #2
    I still have to mess with updated shadowcraft, but tbh it's not the first time i have this.

    Mastery for assassination is good, but haste is not that bad that every inch of it should be reforged away. Actual EPs are very near each other (compared to past expansions); so it's perfectly possible that you don't reforge everything into mastery.

    As a side note, new RPPM trinkets raise artificially the value of haste.

  3. #3
    RPPM trinkets make haste much more powerful.

    Not that you should be using one right now though, as H Bottle and the Shado Pan assault trinkets are better than any normal mode trinkets.

  4. #4
    Shadowcraft was spitting out some funny values yesterday, the front end and back end weren't interfacing correctly. Things should be working a bit better now.

    Mastery should still be your highest stat, rppm items do increase the value of haste however that will tend to simply move the value of haste above that of crit more convincingly then the current situation where they trade based on which you have less of. It should not however increase the value of haste enough that it passes mastery, pre-rppm change haste could approach the value of mastery, post rppm change its unlikely. Additionally the rppm changes have reduced the value of rppm trinkets across the board which may mean assassination will only be running 1 rppm trinket (and sticking with heroic bottle) even at heroic gear levels.

  5. #5
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    I was getting some crazy results yesterday too but I attribute it more to the armory being jacked up than to SC being jacked up.

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  6. #6
    Thing is, i don't have a RPPM trinket, i did think that - but it should account for that? unless it thinks all trinkets are RPPM now?
    Still getting haste > mastery until it forges me into haste, then mastery is slightly better again :S
    Do i follow it blindly or stick with custom mastery build?

  7. #7
    Field Marshal Mersynd's Avatar
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    As Assassination, mastery is far ahead of haste on stat weights. I don't know what is causing it for you but everything is fine here. Noxxic is now showing haste > mastery for 5.2 so maybe there is something that will come from all this, but you should just reforge into mastery no matter what. With Deadly Poison and Envenom (now with buff) being a huge chunk of your damage, and haste not giving much energy regeneration, you should be going for max mastery.

  8. #8
    Nice avatar

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 12:30 PM ----------

    All trinkets should be RPPM idd

  9. #9
    I'm not sure what you are seeing OP, looking at Shadowcraft right now I see mastery and haste as roughly where I'd expect them to be.

    On Noxxic: It looks like they are using combat stat weights in the assassination guide. Given noxxic's poor track record I wouldn't listen to them in the case of disagreement with almost any other theorycrafting source.

  10. #10

  11. #11
    For combat, it shows Agility 2.744 and haste at 1.210. Does that seem normal? Shouldn't haste has more stat weights by now at 499 ilvl?

  12. #12
    Another question about Shadowcraft w/ Assassination: Is Haste v. Crit a choice when your ilvl is near 500?
    Whenever I hit reforge (currently Haste-second-to-Mastery), Crit jumps higher than Haste in priority. Then when I hit reforge again, it puts on a Crit-second-to-Mastery build. I've been thinking that means they're interchangeable, but....?
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Smashysmashy View Post
    Have you done a refresh from armory because I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing mastery at 1.175, crit at 1.079, haste at 1.017.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koca View Post
    For combat, it shows Agility 2.744 and haste at 1.210. Does that seem normal? Shouldn't haste has more stat weights by now at 499 ilvl?
    The new version of shadowcraft has some energy capping logic which can make haste less valuable then we were calculating previously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    Another question about Shadowcraft w/ Assassination: Is Haste v. Crit a choice when your ilvl is near 500?
    Whenever I hit reforge (currently Haste-second-to-Mastery), Crit jumps higher than Haste in priority. Then when I hit reforge again, it puts on a Crit-second-to-Mastery build. I've been thinking that means they're interchangeable, but....?
    Basically, yes these will jump around, generally whichever you have less of will be valued higher, in practice the dps difference between crit and haste as your 2nd best secondary is <30 dps.

    I favor the haste reforges because it makes going combat less painful but if you just follow shadowcraft's recommendations it will work pretty well.
    Last edited by fierydemise; 2013-03-08 at 05:10 PM.

  14. #14
    High Overlord Lichu's Avatar
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    I'm showing Mastery at 1.154, Haste at 1.047, Crit at 1.028.

  15. #15
    When scaling values are close, you're near a saddle point in scaling. Increasing one stat will increase the value of the others, so they might flip flop. When you're at a gear point when stats are balanced, the best thing to do is balance the stats.

    Example: when you reach a point in gear as combat when 2 haste is approximately equal to 1 agility, switching your gemming to full haste is done at the expense of agility, so when you lose the agility, haste's scaling falls to less than half of agility. When you're near that breakpoint in gear, the optimum thing to do, instead of switching from delicate/deft/glinting to deft/quick/lighting, go halfway and do something like deft/deft/glinting, or delicate/quick/glinting, etc, until you get enough agility WITHOUT gems to put 2 haste firmly ahead of agility. At that point you switch to deft/quick/lightning.

    You can TRY mixing haste and mastery and see if balancing them increases your theoretical dps, or you can just go with the full strat that is better. Look at the dps number rather than the stat scaling. Stat scaling is used for gearing decisions--not for performance estimation. DPS is all that matters.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    Have you done a refresh from armory because I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing mastery at 1.175, crit at 1.079, haste at 1.017.
    .
    Yes, i have, many times. So its just my shadowcraft playing up?

    *Playing with the buffs/debuffs section with 0 buffs, haste takes top @ 1.1 ish weight. and with all the buffs putting haste top aswell with 1.35 ish weight. Something to do with that/professions?

    *Found the reasoning. Id spec'd into Shuriken Toss not Anticipation. When switching back this put mastery back on top and haste back down. Thanks All.
    Last edited by Smashysmashy; 2013-03-08 at 08:50 PM.

  17. #17
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    Is it only for me that shadowcraft has been "down for maintenance" for the last 24~ hours? As in when I try to connect to the page where you put in your char name and realm name.

    Edit: nevermind, I could access SC if I went directly to my char screen through the URL.

    And I did some checking about trinkets and how statweights change before and after the trinkets and such (since we only have Lei Shen left and I still have a coin, so I was checking if Rune of Re-Origination might be worth using a coin for or if I should hold it for next reset when we start doing HCs and have 4 coins for that).
    So anyway, I first tried swapping my Sha HC 2/2 trinket for the Rep trinket, and as expected it simmed to give 450-ish dps after reforge.
    I then went back to my sha trinket and swapped it with RoR-O normal (522, no TF) and it instantly popped me up by 1600 dps or so, and then I reforged since my statweights were completely changed around and I gained another 1400 dps, so in total I sim 3k gain going from Sha HC 2/2 trinket to RoR-O 522.

    This is how my statweights looked with the Sha trinket:
    Mastery 1.165
    Haste 1.052
    Crit 1.041

    with RoR-O pre-reforge:
    Mastery 1.081
    Haste 1.389
    Crit 1.356

    with RoR-O post-reforge:
    Mastery 1.120
    Haste 1.431
    Crit 1.373

    So looking at this (taking it with a grain of salt ofc) 2 things are going through my mind:
    1. I've only seen people look at this proc from a Mastery-reforge standpoint (which makes sense because that's what we're used to go for in Assa), but never with a haste reforge PoV, even though that should come to be expected now with the changes that only truehaste promotes a higher uptime. So has anyone actually done any math on this trinket with a haste-reforge assassination spec, and if so, does the numbers make sense or is SC not to be trusted as of yet?

    And 2. If SC is not to be trusted atm, what are people doing to figure out what they should go for? Running their chars in simcraft and then applying their statweights and doing the math themselves? (I've been trying to do this, but I seriously don't get the whole RPPM and can't seem to find any place that gives an explaination that a dumbass like me I can understand, so I can't really do any math myself on the new trinkets as of now. PSST if you know about an explaination on RPPM trinkets, feel free to link it).
    Last edited by Cotech; 2013-03-08 at 09:57 PM.

  18. #18
    Shadowcraft doesn't handle Rune very well now and probably won't for the immediate future if ever. Shadowcraft handles trinkets by time averaging them, a trinket procs X stat with a 10% uptime so we add in the proc by addin .1X to that stat. Normally this approach works pretty well, it ignore things like trinket synergies but the overall approach should be reasonably accurate. Rune is an exception since it exists at the boundary case of two stats at zero. Secondary stats scale each other, that is more haste makes mastery more valuable and vice versa so setting a stat to zero makes other stats less valuable. In practice 0 haste and 0 crit tend to drop the value of mastery to <1 EP.

    The problem for Shadowcraft's time averaging approach is it puts rune in an unrealistically good situation since it treats the trinket as -X% crit and haste and +4X% mastery (assuming mastery is your high stat) while still using pretty typical ep values. This causes shadowcraft to heavily overvalue the trinket and may cause some very odd model results. I suspect if you were to get rune you would still want to go with mastery but I am skeptical even at a heroic level it will be a good a trinket. At BiS I expect heroic bottle and heroic talisman to win out assuming Blizzard doesn't change RPPM. Rune may still be an upgrade over your heroic terror in the mists, in fact I wouldn't be surprised if it was but I would take the vp trinket over rune and save your coin.

    All that said Shadowcraft is still pretty accurate for most things, rune excepted and I would trust shadowcraft in general. If you do want to evaluate rune accurately you are going to need to tinker with the shadowcraft back end which you can find here (https://github.com/dazer/ShadowCraft-Engine). You should look at what ep values are in the proc case and no-proc case sum the ep values of all your gear in both cases and then weight the summed ep values.

    Finally for RPPM a simple explanation. RPPM procs per second= (true_haste*RPPM)/60. Usefully if you want to find the proc interval, seconds per proc, you can simply flip the formula over and compute 60/(true_haste*rppm), you can treat this interval value like a traditional trinket icd. There are some additional caveats related to how ICDs interact with the time_since_last_proc normalization and the variance of RPPM trinkets but for simple analysis procs per second and proc interval should be all you need.

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