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  1. #1
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    [Balance] T15N BiS List

    This is the current NORMAL BiS list for boomkins in T15N gear. Numbers and gearset have been evaluated using WrathCalcs (http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t114017-balance_wrathcalcs/), and other spreadsheets/simulations may vary. This BiS list was last updated on 24/05/13.

    *note*: this is the NORMAL BiS list; to see the heroic list please clicky: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-T15H-BiS-List

    Name Gem Gem Enchant Reforge
    Head Cover of the Haunted Forest Sinister Primal Diamond Quick Sun's Radiance --- Spirit -> Crit
    Neck Passionfire Choker Quick Sun's Radiance --- --- Spirit -> Haste
    Shoulders Shoulderwraps of the Haunted Forest Reckless Vermilion Onyx Smooth Sun's Radiance Greater Crane Wing Inscription ---
    Back Jadefire Drape Potent Vermilion Onyx --- Enchant Cloak - Superior Intellect ---
    Chest Vestment of the Haunted Forest Potent Vermilion Onyx Smooth Sun's Radiance Piercing Wild Jade Spirit -> Crit
    Bracers Infinitely Conducting Bracers --- --- Enchant Bracer - Super Intellect Spirit -> Haste
    Gloves Anima-Ringed Fingers Smooth Sun's Radiance Piercing Wild Jade Enchant Gloves - Greater Haste Spirit -> Haste
    Belt Girdle of Night and Day Potent Vermilion Onyx Smooth Sun's Radiance Smooth Sun's Radiance Spirit -> Crit
    Pants Leggings of the Haunted Forest Smooth Sun's Radiance Piercing Wild Jade Greater Cerulean Spellthread ---
    Boots Sandals of the Starving Eye Smooth Sun's Radiance --- Enchant Boots - Pandaren's Step Spirit -> Haste
    Ring Ro'shak's Remembrance Piercing Wild Jade --- --- Mastery -> Haste
    Ring Durumu's Captive Eyeball Potent Vermilion Onyx --- --- Spirit -> Haste
    Trinket Cha-Ye's Essence of Brilliance --- --- --- Crit -> Haste
    Trinket Breath of the Hydra --- --- --- ---
    Main-Hand Torall, Rod of the Shattered Throne Potent Vermilion Onyx Smooth Sun's Radiance Enchant Weapon - Jade Spirit Spirit -> Crit
    Off-Hand Lei-Shen's Orb of Command Potent Vermilion Onyx --- Enchant Off-Hand - Major Intellect ---

    OVERALL STATS: 18370 Int, 28529 Spell power, 10316 Haste, 14852 Crit, 2455 Mastery, 5035 Hit

    DPS: 203413.38

    CAPS: 65 under hit cap, 20 over GCD cap

    Just a few tid-bits:

    • 2x Crit is substantially above Int, meaning all red sockets should have int/crit gems and all yellow gems should have pure crit/haste gems. Blue sockets will still always have crit/spr or crit/hit. Exp/crit gems would *technically* be better for red sockets, but we really have too much spirit to contend with at this point in the expansion.
    • Blizzard is reinstating upgrades in 5.3. This BiS list is not evaluated with 2/2 upgrades in mind.
    • The four trinket options (UVLS, Cha-Ye's, Breath and Wushoolay's) are all very close in value, with about 3k DPS separating the top from the bottom (assuming you can get rid of all that spirit on Wushoolay's...). If you're gearing up they're all viable options, but for the purpose of this BiS list, Cha-Ye's and Breath are the two best options for 5.3.
    • When comparing items, please use Engineering/Tailoring for comparative purposes. Also set your race to Worgen and SS proc waste to 0.2.
    • 5.3 brings about big changes to FoN, making it the best single-target talent. Incarnation will be better for some multi-target fights, but not all. Currently, we don't know what fights call for what talent, but http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20920799 and below gives a little more insight on the choices.

    Again, if anyone would like to contribute to this list, please post constructively and back up your post with maths! Idly arguing a point without proving yourself wont get you anywhere. Remember to use WrathCalcs, upgrade your gear and use Force of Nature/Heart of the Wild for comparison purposes.

    --------------------------------------

    Anyway, feel free to comment on this as well. I'm always up for testing out anything new you guys come up with!

    Also, I must have a few transcription errors somewhere here - feel free to point them out, so others don't get confused.
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-05-28 at 08:16 AM.

  2. #2
    I was trying to post this on EJ but I can't seem to remember my login... so maybe you could instead if it's not already in Wrathcalcs.

    Anyway, check my armory profile (can't post links but search for Serejai on Burning Legion) for a Thunderforged weapon that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere yet. It dropped off the first boss for us. Seems like it could be decent for Moonkins doing normal modes. Not sure if it would fit on the BIS list, though.

  3. #3
    I was looking over your list and I think you may have copied things over incorrectly. First thing I noticed if you have the neck piece being reforged from spirit to crit. The passionfire choker already has crit and therefore can't be reforged to crit. The second thing I noticed was for your back piece you placed a yellow gem in it but it has a red socket.

    Finally I had a question, by removing t14 4 pc our haste soft caps go back up to the higher ones and it looks like your sitting in between the two haste soft caps with a haste of 7074. I've heard of this actually being a dps increase if it can be afforded my question is when can it be attributed to a dps increase vs a loss in the sense that you lose another stat holding onto the haste?

  4. #4
    Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, I can't find info on trinket rankings...
    Currently I have heroic upgraded light of the cosmos and upgraded relic of yu'lon, is volatile talisman of the shado-pan assault an upgrade to RoY? Also where does Wushoolay's Final Choice fit into the mix?

  5. #5
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shayshay View Post
    I was looking over your list and I think you may have copied things over incorrectly. First thing I noticed if you have the neck piece being reforged from spirit to crit. The passionfire choker already has crit and therefore can't be reforged to crit. The second thing I noticed was for your back piece you placed a yellow gem in it but it has a red socket.

    Finally I had a question, by removing t14 4 pc our haste soft caps go back up to the higher ones and it looks like your sitting in between the two haste soft caps with a haste of 7074. I've heard of this actually being a dps increase if it can be afforded my question is when can it be attributed to a dps increase vs a loss in the sense that you lose another stat holding onto the haste?
    Good catch, yeah both of those are transcription errors - should be a potent in the cape and no reforge on the neck. Updating OP.

    As I laid out in this post in the T15H BiS thread (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post20438580), the haste breakpoint isn't that important because of the uptime on the Sinister meta proc. The 8089 haste breakpoint is actually a DPS loss for this gear set, and goes to show how much of its value is really apparent now.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-07 at 11:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by halfawake View Post
    Sorry if this has been answered elsewhere, I can't find info on trinket rankings...
    Currently I have heroic upgraded light of the cosmos and upgraded relic of yu'lon, is volatile talisman of the shado-pan assault an upgrade to RoY? Also where does Wushoolay's Final Choice fit into the mix?
    Wushoolay's is pretty low because of the massive amounts of spirit we already have on gear - even in this normal set, it's really difficult to get rid of it.

  6. #6
    Any word on whether the valor trinket is worth it over t14 trinkets? (personally trying to compare to upgraded RoYulon and upgraded Heroic Cosmos)

  7. #7
    Slippy are you sure that Jin'rokh's Dreamshard is better than Ro'shak's Remembrance? Ro'shak's has a socket and overall more stats.

    Or is Jin'rokh's listed because Ro'shak's TF not included in the databases yet? Or because of the way reforges work out perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by halfawake View Post
    Any word on whether the valor trinket is worth it over t14 trinkets? (personally trying to compare to upgraded RoYulon and upgraded Heroic Cosmos)
    Run Wrath Calcs and you will get the answer on how all of the trinkets compare.

  8. #8
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutheru View Post
    Slippy are you sure that Jin'rokh's Dreamshard is better than Ro'shak's Remembrance? Ro'shak's has a socket and overall more stats.

    Or is Jin'rokh's listed because Ro'shak's TF not included in the databases yet? Or because of the way reforges work out perhaps?



    Run Wrath Calcs and you will get the answer on how all of the trinkets compare.
    Jin'rohk's Dreamshard is the only TF ring in WrathCalcs right now. From what I tested, Durumu's was the 2nd best out of the other available normal rings. Ro'shak's (normal) is around 100 DPS lower than Durumu's, has mastery and that's a pretty lousy stat.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by halfawake View Post
    Any word on whether the valor trinket is worth it over t14 trinkets? (personally trying to compare to upgraded RoYulon and upgraded Heroic Cosmos)
    I'm going for Valor trinket + council trinket because 1) they are more reliable 2) easier to come by 3) hydra is terrible due to low rppm
    Last edited by Reyzzz; 2013-03-08 at 12:40 PM.

  10. #10
    Are you sure about the trinkets? i've passed the breath of the hydra (non thnderforged) and kept LotC(H) 2/2 + The new VP trinket....WC said the VP trinket was the best choice :C

    Did you take a look at the offset Head piece that drops from Maegera?
    Last edited by Meldon; 2013-03-08 at 10:57 AM.

  11. #11
    I've added all of the new Thunderforged gear that showed up on WoWDB after launch. I'll add this profile to the default dropdown on Wrathcalcs once you've had a chance to update it with them.

  12. #12
    Excellent, thank you for this Slippy

    Correct me if i'm wrong, but are you using the stat weights of:

    Int = 1
    Crit = 0.5
    Haste/Spirit = 0.33
    Mastery = ~ 0.28 (someone said it's about 15% behind)

    I've put those numbers into askmrrobot which has come out with nearly the same outcome, except using lei-shens offhand and the VP trinket with H LotC. I'm assuming my numbers are wrong

    (Or is it simply because i'm using AMRRobot? I just like using it as it gives a quick view of 'relative' upgrades if the above list doesn't drop )
    Last edited by Tauton; 2013-03-08 at 10:58 PM.

  13. #13
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tauton View Post
    Excellent, thank you for this Slippy

    Correct me if i'm wrong, but are you using the stat weights of:

    Int = 1
    Crit = 0.5
    Haste/Spirit = 0.33
    Mastery = ~ 0.28 (someone said it's about 15% behind)

    I've put those numbers into askmrrobot which has come out with nearly the same outcome, except using lei-shens offhand and the VP trinket with H LotC. I'm assuming my numbers are wrong

    (Or is it simply because i'm using AMRRobot? I just like using it as it gives a quick view of 'relative' upgrades if the above list doesn't drop )
    Marginal stat changes are something that update dynamically with the addition of any one of the stats, they all affect each other. WrathCalcs is just a model that takes all chicken things into account for a single-target fight, and estimates a steady-state DPS for us. For the purpose of evaluating a 2 or 3 target fight, I estimated 1 crit = 1.5 haste, so technically your "weights" are correct. However, when in doubt I like to put weapons into their SHE (spirit-haste equivalent comparison test I used in the OP) form and see what the real difference is. For example, I just did one for the ring alternatives, Jin'rokh's Dreamshard and Ro'shak's Remembrance. Please note that these comparison tests only work for low changes in stats - essentially we're taking a linear approximation (tangent) to the DPS curve in whatever dimension vector space we're using. If you were to compare multiple items together in the one test, your answer would be very inaccurate.

    Stat: Ro'shak's vs. Jin'rokh's

    Int: 838 vs. 918
    Crit: 818 vs. 639
    S/H: 397 vs. 567
    Mast: 267 vs. 0

    This equates to 179 C + 267 M vs. 80 I + 170 SH. Turning the crit, mastery and int into SHE we get:

    179*1.5 SHE + 267*0.85 SHE vs. 80*2*1.5 SHE + 170 SHE = 495.45 SHE vs. 410 SHE. So Ro'shak's wins by a clear margin here.

    I can do a similar thing for the off-hands, Fetish of the Hydra and Lei-Shen's Orb of Command

    Stat: Hydra vs. Orb

    Int: 838 vs. 918
    Crit: 687 vs. 785
    S/H: 759 vs. 482

    After converting, we get 1789.5 SHE vs. 1899.5 SHE. This would mean that Lei-Shen's Orb of Command is the better option, as you said, but WrathCalcs reports that Hydra is ahead by ~80 DPS. This will be because the difference of these items is in the grey area between WrathCalcs' haste = crit and our crit = 1.5 haste. Just for clarity, if we did say haste = crit, our numbers would then be 1446 SHE vs. 1427, so you can see why this discrepancy occurs.

    Since we are following the 2 and 3 target crit build, Orb representation should be closer to our estimated values. So yes, Orb should be better, I'll update the OP with that change as well.

    Edit: now that I've gone through the new Thunderforged pieces, there have been a number of changes, namely:

    rT15 chest to Robes of Concussive Force (tested hat as off-piece and it was a dps loss)
    Jin'rohk's Dreamshard to Ro'shak's Remembrance
    Fetish of the Hydra to Lei-Shen's Orb of Command
    numerous normal versions of items to TF versions
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-03-08 at 11:48 PM.

  14. #14
    Is Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen not worthwhile anymore?

  15. #15
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deztruction View Post
    Is Unerring Vision of Lei-Shen not worthwhile anymore?
    No, the proc rate of it was halved for boomkins, making it just a bit below the alternatives. Very RNG-y.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by halfawake View Post
    Any word on whether the valor trinket is worth it over t14 trinkets? (personally trying to compare to upgraded RoYulon and upgraded Heroic Cosmos)
    Valor trinket > yulon

  17. #17
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deztruction View Post
    Valor trinket > yulon
    The trinket priority list should be as follows (SPA = Shado-Pan Assault Valor trinket):

    Cha-Ye's (TF) > Hydra (TF) > UVLS (TF) > Cha-Ye's (N) > Breath (N) > SPA > UVLS (N) > LotC (H) (2 upgrades) > LotC (H) > EoT (H) (2 upgrades) > EoT (H) > RoY (2 upgrades) > RoY

  18. #18
    I played around with Anima-Ringed fingers for off piece instead of the chest off piece and ended up with:

    OVERALL STATS: 16340 Int, 25769 Spell power, 7292 Haste, 15863 Crit, 986 Mastery, 5082 Hit

    DPS: 168893.73

    CAPS: 18 under hit cap

    Kept same gemming for the the color of socket, just had to reforge slightly for hit cap.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    The trinket priority list should be as follows (SPA = Shado-Pan Assault Valor trinket):

    Cha-Ye's (TF) > Hydra (TF) > UVLS (TF) > Cha-Ye's (N) > Breath (N) > SPA > UVLS (N) > LotC (H) (2 upgrades) > LotC (H) > EoT (H) (2 upgrades) > EoT (H) > RoY (2 upgrades) > RoY
    And http://www.wowhead.com/item=94513?

  20. #20
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Day25 View Post
    I played around with Anima-Ringed fingers for off piece instead of the chest off piece and ended up with:

    OVERALL STATS: 16340 Int, 25769 Spell power, 7292 Haste, 15863 Crit, 986 Mastery, 5082 Hit

    DPS: 168893.73

    CAPS: 18 under hit cap

    Kept same gemming for the the color of socket, just had to reforge slightly for hit cap.
    Nice fiddling there! I see how you got to the 18 under cap as well (funny enough, did the same reforging). It looks like changing the off-piece resulted in a 140 int + 8 haste loss, but a 490 crit and 130 mastery gain. Sizable increase, I'll have to see if this is apparent for the H BiS list as well.

    Updating OP.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-10 at 01:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Reyzzz View Post
    Wushoolay's fits in between Cha-Ye's (N) and Breath (N), only because it's possible to get rid of the spirit and hit around 34 over the cap. Once you get the Thunderforged version or higher, it'll be below the other options because of unreforgable spirit.

    Edit: and now because of the above poster, not possible to reforge the spirit even with the normal Wushoolay's. Drops it to between UVLS (N) and LotC (H) (2 upgrades).
    Last edited by Slippykins; 2013-03-10 at 09:09 AM.

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