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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by suicidebears View Post
    complexity for complexity sake?
    Yes, I agree with this. It's like they have a need to push it beyond where it really should be.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  2. #122
    Elemental Lord Baar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suicidebears View Post
    complexity for complexity sake?

    what happened to challenging but still fun?

    i raided every expansion in competitive guilds spanning 40 mans, to heroic 10 man... and for some reason this expansion... these raid designs really bother me. the only way i can describe the raid design is with a hipsterish/condescending attitude.

    i remember a fight as simple as heigan with the safety dance... the fight had like 2 mechanics, was challenging enough but still FUN... what happened to that design? clever mechanics... not just 8-10 random things thrown on the floor/adds...

    just seems super lazy to me
    Heigan was only a challenge if you were challenged or had really bad lag. It was one of the easiest fights in WOW.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 12:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by suicidebears View Post
    i remember dpsing heigan with just a tank and a healer alive with everyone cheering on the last 3-4 people remaining.. that was a LOT more fun than... ADDS... void zones... ADDS... dispel... void zone... aoe damage... ADDS.. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

    I feel sorry if your group was that retarded that they couldn't do something as simple as run to the next section.

  3. #123
    I do think too it's not fun.
    The complexity of managing your long list of class skills is high, but still fun.
    The complexity of the fight mechanics it's too high, but looks like fun if you think in doing that overgeared.

    Now add those two complexities together, in a group with the bare minimum necessary gear to satisfy the math, and you have a challenge so unforgiven that isn't even fun.

    Buu <= WHY I LOVE TO PLAY HUNTERS! => Pendleton

  4. #124
    This all confirms for me my feeling (and, I freely admit, hope) that normal mode raid participation will decline significantly in T15. Blizzard is delivering a raiding product that frustrates and repels many people. The complexity makes bringing in new people difficult.

    If you don't like this design, I'll not only say don't do it, I'll beg you to not do it. Use your participation or lack thereof to send Blizzard a message.
    Last edited by Osmeric; 2013-03-08 at 05:30 PM.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  5. #125
    Pit Lord Asmodias's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petur View Post
    I agree. Over all design just seems very lack luster. The general Asian theme bores me this expansion. Older raids you would walk in and gawk in awe at how cool they were. Now you walk in youre just like ok, wheres the boss. Want to get loot and be on my way.
    How much of this "get in, find boss, get loot, get out" mentality stems from being bored with the theme of this expanison? I also have to ask, Have you found yourself bored with other expansion themes? And if so, did you still Gawk in Awe over the raids there in? I am interested in knowing if the boring theme is what is bringing on the feelings that you are expressing.


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  6. #126
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spalding View Post
    So all in all, less mechanics, but more dmg taken from them? In safety dance you'd almost get killed instantly if you weren't running with the wolf pack!
    You know, entirely out of context, "In safety dance you'd almost get killed instantly if you weren't running with the wolf pack!" is pretty much the funniest sentence ever. It's like someone telling a really horrifying story from the 1980's.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    This all confirms for me my feeling (and, I freely admit, hope) that normal mode raid participation will decline significantly in T15. Blizzard is delivering a raiding product that frustrates and repels many people. The complexity makes bringing in new people difficult.

    If you don't like this design, I'll not only say don't do it, I'll beg you to not do it. Use your participation or lack thereof to send Blizzard a message.
    Man I get the feeling that they figured since they've got LFR for EZ mode content they can just push normals harder. I just get the feeling it's gonna keep pushing players out of normals and into LFR. I don't know what's up over in irvine. I'd love to be a fly on the wall.

  8. #128
    I am not tired of MoP designs, tired of complainers? Yes, Raid designs no.

    If you look at old raid designs it boiled down to grind for nature/dark/fire/what ever resist gear outside the raid and then tank and spank the boss now that you could survive the attacks, and then it was do the same thing but don't step in the fire.

    I really can't believe we have people complaining about complex and different original mechanics, would you prefer to know you could just stand still and click 1, 2, 2, 1, 3, 2, 1 for the entire fight? Are you looking for challenge and effort or a game where you can watch netflix and absently stroke your keyboard?

  9. #129
    I think the OP misses the endless trash mobs that BC raids have. I apparently have a much different memory of pre-wrath raiding. the only thing i think that is really making it easier is no more attunement and now you have guides online everywhere telling you how to kill it.
    I am Dave ! Yognaught, and I have the balls!

  10. #130
    I think the designers have a "Lessons learned from DS" poster that hangs in their office.

    I compare the Horridan encounter to Spine of Deathwing. On Spine, after each gate you faced the exact same thing ... just more of it. It was a little mind-numbing. So on Horridan, each gate provides a new set of mechanics and priorities. Good idea, but it can be a little overwhelming when you start paging through all the abilities you'll see in the encounter.

  11. #131
    lol Holy paladin in sunwell, spamming 2 different buttons... and only because i could use 2 different ranks of holy light... so hard
    I am Dave ! Yognaught, and I have the balls!

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I am not tired of MoP designs, tired of complainers
    I don't want to be that guy but if this were the truth then you could probably avoid threads where it's clear some complaints are going to be happening. In truth I don't think your tired one bit but yea just a heads up.

  13. #133
    I am personally amazed with what all they can do with mechanics in a game that is 8 years old and was not designed to have mechanics.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 05:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    I don't want to be that guy but if this were the truth then you could probably avoid threads where it's clear some complaints are going to be happening. In truth I don't think your tired one bit but yea just a heads up.
    Just a heads up, you can at any time stop being an angry spirit, a wow forum ghost and follow the light to lands where you actually do and enjoy what you are posting about. It's okay, we will get along without you some how.

  14. #134
    not really, I like the 5.2 raid and I dont think its the same over and over again
    ~

  15. #135
    Besides the fact that this thread is all opinion, what fights are "complex"?

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by suicidebears View Post
    i guarantee the fanboys will be the only ones left dodging a screen of super complex orbs and void zones and absurdly over complex mechanics for no reason.
    And there we go. You completely lost credibility by basicly saying everyone who disagrees with your statement is a fanboy.

    I do however agree that they are using certain mechanics on multiple bosses, although not nearly as much as you say. Seeing it's a game that has been running for over 8 year with hundreds of bosses I'm actually surprised they are still comming up with new original ones.

    While some bosses have indeed got a lot of abundant mechanics for the sake of having mechanics, the playerbase has evolved, the simple and few mechanics on bosses used in the past would never work now as dealing with most of them has become second nature to players that have played the game for a long time. Keeping that in mind some more and more complex mechanics on bosses than we are used to isn't really that bad.
    Last edited by Ziktus; 2013-03-08 at 05:53 PM.

  17. #137
    Immortal Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Man I get the feeling that they figured since they've got LFR for EZ mode content they can just push normals harder. I just get the feeling it's gonna keep pushing players out of normals and into LFR. I don't know what's up over in irvine. I'd love to be a fly on the wall.
    That's actually the entire motivation for it.

    They even said since they have LFR, they can tune Normal modes even better, which is why we have the current difficulty.

    I see no problem with it honestly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
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  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    That's actually the entire motivation for it.

    They even said since they have LFR, they can tune Normal modes even better, which is why we have the current difficulty.

    I see no problem with it honestly.

    Well it just leads to more attrition. More players leaving normals. It also doesn't serve as an attraction for players to start doing normals. The problem is they keep offering the stick and the carrot is missing in alot of instances.

  19. #139
    So, at least your in the right spot for the part of the reason for this. The players. Your one of those right? Welp, other players have opinions too and they've expressed them many times over the expansions. Its up to you to whine about whether you like certain types of players or not. But that is not the discussion you started. Always better to start off with many examples of comparisons of bosses from the tiers you do and don't like and why. So, other posters don't do it for you. Give some details, then go into how Blizz is this or that. ....or AN ENTIRE EXPANSION IS CRAP BECAUSE BLIZZ DID THIS OR THAT.

    Didn't they learn from the "playerbase" that Wrath started way too easy. (no need for the rehash debate here) Over and over they have admitted this and said with guides, videos, and overall better skill of the playerbase, they needed to do this. In combination with each expansion adding new classes or new abilities are added giving everyone something new to work with and they want you to use those new abilities. Follow that with (ooo ahhh) "Class balance", which inevitably should give everyone in the room/raid something to do. Again, the playerbase didn't like being just a debuff class, the playerbase didn't like carrying the "10-15" in 40 mans. The playerbase didn't like ToC mostly for the setting, but also don't like miles of trash, but didn't like seeing Anub for the 3rd time. Blizz makes design mistakes all the time. But you want to use this particular tier to compare to others? You are just tired of raiding my friend or currently roadblocked.

    IT IS SO COMMON TO SEE THE USE OF "FANBOY" FOLLOWED BY "BLIZZARD FIX MY GAME FOR ME" Maybe a new term should be created to define them. Seems to be a lot more of those than real, "blind" fanboys these days.

    Of course, threads like these bring out the "EPIC FEEL" posts. Let me tell you, when I first saw Stitches roll up on Darkshire, it had an epic feel. But that bitch better not look my way now.

  20. #140
    Immortal Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Well it just leads to more attrition. More players leaving normals. It also doesn't serve as an attraction for players to start doing normals. The problem is they keep offering the stick and the carrot is missing in alot of instances.
    I also just think the entire "raiding" market is just waning.

    I mean, take GW2 for example. The game has only 8 dungeons (which are extremely difficult), and the rest of the content is scales your level down so you can experience any zone you want at any time, along with a plethora of World Bosses.

    WoW is probably the only game I think think of that has stuck to the old End Game formula and has made it extremely successful.

    The prime issue is that the MMO Market is waning. The "Old Kings" of MMOs are just starting to wither, unfortunately. That's just how the market works.

    The same even goes for GW2 which has had some drop in activity.

    The MMO boom is kinda gone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
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