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  1. #161
    Banned JhanZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    So I can't express my opinion on his opinion without being called a hypocrite? Get over yourself.
    No, I think I'll put you on ignore instead. Because you don't even understand what I wrote, and are just being hostile for the sake of being hostile.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by kouby View Post
    So, people actually miss DS? You realize you guys are not actually human right? It's impossible.

    Seriously these raids are a breath of fresh air compared to retarded playgrounds like DS, there was NOTHING interesting in Dragon Soul, not one fight. So to bitch about fights with too many mechanics?... My god, people will bitch about anything Blizzard does I guess.
    oh stop with the mindless hate, bosses in DS actually had new and memorable mechanics. People don't hate that raid for lack of interesting fights, but because it was nerfed really fast and we had to do it way way to long.
    Only fight that was underwhelming was sadly Deathwing himself, (Spine and Madness), thats the fight that should be most epic, but we ended up killing his nails and some adds.
    Rest of the raid was good imo.
    Last edited by nemro82; 2013-03-08 at 10:34 PM.

  3. #163
    Scarab Lord Sky High's Avatar
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    well thankfully this is only your opinion, so of course it holds no water. however i do not AT ALL agree that 2 mechanic fights can still be fun, sure they were fun back in vanilla, TBC, but today? well just as you call blizz lazy for making fights complex (which doesn't make any fucking sense to me) they would be in an uproar with fights being recycled over and over and over again. sure they could be more punishing, but by no means FUN (subjective of course), i like fights where i have to do more then avoid 1 or two things to see the boss fall over dead.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by suicidebears View Post
    learning and mastering your class sounds like a much better target for raid design.
    If this were the case, you would learn your class and then be done with every boss that Blizzard ever creates. There needs to be some challenge for people that don't spend months figuring out how to use their class.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    oh stop with the mindless hate, bosses in DS actually had new and memorable mechanics. People don't hate that raid for lack of interesting fights, but because it was nerfed really fast and we had to do it way way to long.
    I don't mind you having your opinion, so please don't tell me to change mine. Dragon Soul was not shitty for me because of the amount of time it took or the nerfs. It was shitty for me because not one new mechanic was introduced and every boss was completely forgettable, along with the fact that every single part of the entire raid was a re-used model. In my eyes, the hate for Dragon Soul is completely justified, and any community that accepts a raid like Dragon Soul without asking for more is not a game or community I want to be a part of.
    Last edited by Ryanlol; 2013-03-08 at 10:52 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    when I go to the carnival and drop 5 bucks on a -game- I don't bitch when I don't win the stuffed bear

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by suicidebears View Post
    i think a huge problem is the lore in this expansion. who seriously cares of pandaria? i didnt think for a single nanosecond about it before the expansion released...

    what about the characters everyone cares about? saurfang? rexxar? the old gods? the titans? burning legion... sargeras? bolvar?... any of the alliance lore characters...? out of all of that we get the thunder king? which noone has ever heard of or cares about? and sha?
    I think you are using your own opinion and generalizing it to think that everyone has the same opinion as you do. I personally enjoy that even normal modes have a lot of mechanics to worry about and a lot of people need their own personal skill to complete it. Pandaria's lore is much nicer than Cataclysm's in my opinion and what you are able to do in Pandaria is more interesting than any what you could do in Cataclysm at max level. To go with Pebrocks The Warlock, he also says that without going to new things it will not expand. Also keep in mind that Pandaria and Pandaren are not just barely made up things, they have been here a long time just not in World of Warcraft.

    You have your opinions and that's great, but please don't make them seem like everyone shares your opinion.

  6. #166
    Sure, every raid has its own ups and downs and everyone have their own opinion of those ups and downs. The thing with this expansions is that 3-4 mechanic fights, where you were thrown 1 mechanic at a time, became too "easy". So they decided to make encounters where you have to deal with much more mechanics that could even happen simultaneously. Plus the fact that the majority of those mechanics going wrong could mean a wipe.

    In my opinion doing 1 mechanic every 1.5 minutes is boring. Whereas dealing with adds, boss buffs, different boss abilities that can one shot people, positioning and aoe raid dmg at the same time is not boring. Its challenging even fun. The fights engage everyone in the raid and no one is left to just stand still and spam heals/dmg. Sure there are some fights where this could happen but only a few.

    To name a few hard/fun bosses: C'thun prenerf, Yogg + 0 25, LK 25 HC and Ragnaros 25 HC. Those were the days. This tier only had Imperial Vizier preNerf. Waiting for more...

  7. #167
    today classes and specs are polished to a point that any fight with 2 mechanics will be just a loot pinata, or there is someone that want to go back at 1 spec half viable era? honestly wanna see all the qq from pala/druid/shaman being returned to the vanilla era.
    How about we let the parenting of kids to... their parents? No, seriously, World of Warcraft is a videogame. Gaming it's supposed to be a fun activity (if you have that fun through challenges, social interactions, etc is completely up to you). Not some kind of "School of Hard Knocks about the Real World".

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Pebrocks The Warlock View Post
    So I can't express my opinion on his opinion without being called a hypocrite? Get over yourself.
    You were called a hypocrite because you criticised someone for having an opinion that differed from your own. Then you criticised some for not realising the peoples opinions can differ. You therefore contradicted yourself in the same thread on the same day. Bravo.

  9. #169
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    Raiding in WoW is moving to Raid Finder much like dungeon running in WoW moved to the Dungeon Finder.
    I had thought this was perfectly obvious. I would think it's impossible to consider raiding participation as being either up or down significantly without making some sort of adjustment for LFR. People are obviously migrating to it much as people migrated to more convenient raid sizes when they were roughly equalized for reward.

    The attraction of LFR having its own progression path through the expansion that allows everyone that can meet the gear requirements to do at least a version of 'BC-style progression raiding' would be an obvious bonus. Today, you can get to 90, get to 463 and start at T14 with the clear expectation that you actually will see T15 at some point.

    The other point which I thought was obvious was that in the raiding community, there was a lot of chatter about wanting more difficult raids.

    So here we are: Three tiers of difficulty; easy, medium and hard. It would make sense that now that LFR is available the difficulty for normal would be a shifted a bit towards more difficulty. It no longer really functions as entry-level for many people.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-03-08 at 11:32 PM.
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  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    oh stop with the mindless hate, bosses in DS actually had new and memorable mechanics. People don't hate that raid for lack of interesting fights, but because it was nerfed really fast and we had to do it way way to long.
    Only fight that was underwhelming was sadly Deathwing himself, (Spine and Madness), thats the fight that should be most epic, but we ended up killing his nails and some adds.
    Rest of the raid was good imo.
    You do realize his post literally translates into "I don't agree with the OP and I like Blizzard's decisions", right?

    DS is a highly controversial raid. I have no idea why you are so hostile just because he didn't enjoy it.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryanlol View Post

    Dragon Soul was not shitty for me because of the amount of time it took or the nerfs. It was shitty for me because not one new mechanic was introduced and every boss was completely forgettable, .
    oh really ? how manny times before did you bounce the ball like on Zon'ozz? how many times did you had a fight with random color oozes, that you could tailor encounter like on Yor'sahj? How many times before did you have that extra button on the screen like on Ultraxion? how many times do you have something like lighting conducts on Haggara?

    I'm not saying all of this is super cool and mind blowing, but you can't fall on other side of a scale too, and say there was nothing new with straight face.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-08 at 11:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Destil View Post
    You do realize his post literally translates into "I don't agree with the OP and I like Blizzard's decisions", right?

    DS is a highly controversial raid. I have no idea why you are so hostile just because he didn't enjoy it.
    I am hostile because I don't like exaggeration and attitude like the guys I quoted. He said if someone liked DS he's not human, wtf ?

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    I'm not saying all of this is super cool and mind blowing, but you can't fall on other side of a scale too, and say there was nothing new with straight face.
    I can say it with a straight face, because I believe it to be true and because I'm stating it as an opinion, not as a fact. Dragon Soul was so unoriginal that I felt physically sick while raiding it, but stuck on for my guild (and I'm glad I did, because MoP raids are fantastic.)
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    when I go to the carnival and drop 5 bucks on a -game- I don't bitch when I don't win the stuffed bear

  13. #173
    I am Murloc! Airwaves's Avatar
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    I do have to agree with the OP at some points. I realy don't think its a bunch of mechanics that are the problem. FOR ME! it was not that there were alot of mechanics its that they are mostly (5.1 raids) reused mechanics they have used of fights years past. I raided for 6 years and when you are doing a boss and its does something a boss did 4 years ago it gets rather boring. The last time I had ALOT of fun was heroic rag.

    Now i can't talk for TOT since i have only realy done the first boss (Got to 10% and wiped so they were not locked) and will not clear it until my guild does alt runs since i no longer raid. Now hopefully TOT isn't in the same boat at 5.1.
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  14. #174
    I am Murloc! Granyala's Avatar
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    I do not mind having to learn complex multi phase fights but I really do not enter a raid instance to spend any time learning how to walk across platforms with wind trying to blow me off while mobs with blue flood lights that knock you about if you are hit cycle up and down and around you while killing trash between bosses that is just plain tuned silly.
    Agreed. That Trash is absurd.

    I found the first two bosses pretty good though. Esp Horridon, I like it if the first pulls just end in utter chaos.

    He said if someone liked DS he's not human, wtf ?
    Well, you're not human. You're Draenei! :<

    Dragon souls ARTWORK was lame, and I mean "ToC lame"™.
    Mechanics were fun. Well... except Spine.... brr....
    Last edited by Granyala; 2013-03-09 at 12:04 AM.

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  15. #175
    The raid design team seems to be mistaking "complicated" for "complex." Rather than make fights where the mechanics have a certain level of complexity to them, which can be done with fewer mechanics, Blizzard has decided that every fight has to have 10-12 separate mechanics, an add wave, and 90% of the ground will kill you. And that's phase one. The roadblock fight for a lot of casual guilds was Elegon, which had an add, managing your debuff stacks, killing power sparks, and killing columns and the adds that spawned, and a phase 3 burn. Less was more there. The fights in ToT are designed as if they watched Spirit Kings and said "hey, imagine if Spirit Kings was a fight where you faced all four bosses abilities constantly, and the floor randomly exploded every 30 seconds while Flanking Orders had to be killed!"

    Someone needs to get dear old Ion off the caffeine.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by suicidebears View Post
    complexity for complexity sake?

    what happened to challenging but still fun?
    ...
    just seems super lazy to me
    So... complexity is lazy? Buh...?

    Ok, you say 'complexity for complexity sake' is bad, but you also want 'challenging but still fun'. There are only two ways to make an encounter a challenge: by making it more complex, or by making it a 'patchwerk' gear check. 'Patchwerk Gear check' fights are not fun. It's just not fun when you and your group know a fight inside and out, strategy perfectly memorized and executed, but still fail because your raid members aren't geared enough.

    Now, complex fights... those are, in my opinon, the most engaging and entertaining fights. Why? Because I gotta keep focused on the fights, I gotta learn the bosses' strategies. I gotta know when to swing my weapon, and when the get the hell of the way! It keeps me engaged. Boring things are not fun.

    Blizzard makes the fights more 'complex' to keep their playerbase engaged. Why? Because the average raider is getting smarter. So much so that old raid mechanics are not enough, anymore. So, to keep them interested, to keep them challenged, they need to 'up the ante' and make the fights more complex. Because simply making fights a gear check is simply not fun nor engaging.

  17. #177
    The thing about MoP that now one cares about is the fact we're fighting un interesting enemies. The Mogu are so poorly implemented I don't care about their back story or them in general. Take a look back at vanilla WoW we were fighting to stop Ragnaros,Nef (Ony and the black dragon flight) and the old god C'Thun. BC we were fighting to stop Illidan and the Burning Legion. Wotlk we were fighting to stop Arthas/the scourge, stop yog and stop the titans from destroying Azeroth. Cata we were fighting to stop Deathwing and Rag (again) on destroying Azeroth. Now in MoP what were fighting some ancient creatures that are reskinned draenei's with a back story that's exciting as watching paint dry?

  18. #178
    Immortal Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexme View Post
    The thing about MoP that now one cares about is the fact we're fighting un interesting enemies. The Mogu are so poorly implemented I don't care about their back story or them in general. Take a look back at vanilla WoW we were fighting to stop Ragnaros,Nef (Ony and the black dragon flight) and the old god C'Thun. BC we were fighting to stop Illidan and the Burning Legion. Wotlk we were fighting to stop Arthas/the scourge, stop yog and stop the titans from destroying Azeroth. Cata we were fighting to stop Deathwing and Rag (again) on destroying Azeroth. Now in MoP what were fighting some ancient creatures that are reskinned draenei's with a back story that's exciting as watching paint dry?
    If you're going to make such an argument, and don't care about the Mogu's backstory, there's no point in explaining it or arguing it with you is there?

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Hexme View Post
    The thing about MoP that now one cares about is the fact we're fighting un interesting enemies. The Mogu are so poorly implemented I don't care about their back story or them in general. Take a look back at vanilla WoW we were fighting to stop Ragnaros,Nef (Ony and the black dragon flight) and the old god C'Thun. BC we were fighting to stop Illidan and the Burning Legion. Wotlk we were fighting to stop Arthas/the scourge, stop yog and stop the titans from destroying Azeroth. Cata we were fighting to stop Deathwing and Rag (again) on destroying Azeroth. Now in MoP what were fighting some ancient creatures that are reskinned draenei's with a back story that's exciting as watching paint dry?
    Funny how you forgot to mention all the other 'uninteresting' bosses from Vanilla, BC, Wrath and Cataclysm. Also, let me fix your first sentence:
    The thing about MoP that now one cares about is the fact we're fighting enemies that are not interesting to me.
    Also, calling the Mogu 'reskinned Draenei' is a stupid argument. Models have been re-used since the beginning of WoW. Broken use Tauren models, to cite one example. And it seems I need to fix another broken sentence of yours:
    with a back story that's exciting as watching paint dry to me
    With those sentences properly fixed, I say this. Stop saying lies and spewing opinions as fact. I, for one, find the Mogu interesting. It's not the game's fault you simply cannot bring yourself to care.

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexme View Post
    The thing about MoP that now one cares about is the fact we're fighting un interesting enemies. The Mogu are so poorly implemented I don't care about their back story or them in general. Take a look back at vanilla WoW we were fighting to stop Ragnaros,Nef (Ony and the black dragon flight) and the old god C'Thun. BC we were fighting to stop Illidan and the Burning Legion. Wotlk we were fighting to stop Arthas/the scourge, stop yog and stop the titans from destroying Azeroth. Cata we were fighting to stop Deathwing and Rag (again) on destroying Azeroth. Now in MoP what were fighting some ancient creatures that are reskinned draenei's with a back story that's exciting as watching paint dry?
    From reading all that and so on you might want to play something else if you find WoW boring and I think you need the removed those rose tinted glasses..

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