1. #1

    Blood - 5.2=repeat of firelands spike damage?

    Something that has been on my mind for the past little while and wanted to discuss and see if anyone has considered running any numbers for this or has a view on it (have you maybe simmed it already mr euliat??!! ). My specific situation relates to considering swapping from a blood DK to a prot paladin for a 10man raid comp.

    In particular, I am concerned about the potential for high physical damage on heroic bosses that blood shield may have limits in mitigating. IE to stack a sizeable blood shield before an ability you may need to sit on enough runes for a double DS (therefore taking substantially more healing/damage pre ability). This compares to a paladin's "on demand" ~50% damage reduction of SOTR. Effectively, will we be getting to the point where bosses hit hard enough that blood DK mitigation because little more than temporary EH boost, as opposed to a real mitigating ability? Of course, 10 man bosses often hit less hard than their 25 counterparts, but I don't believe this changes the view of whether one tank is better suited than another (unless we are on the fulcrum of "hits too hard")

    When you take into account the raid utility of a prot paladin (AM, bops, sacs, glyph of battle healer, double interrupt potential with shield, etc) vs. the sometimes broken but often limited use ability of DKs (mass grip, aoe freeze), it feels that paladins bring a lot more than DKs to a small raid setup.

    Assuming both classes are played at the same level (and that gear isn't an issue), I am wondering if the above is fairly accurate or if I am missing something entirely in terms of playstyle that would negate it (for example, cooldowning before a big attack to mitigate damage, then double DSing for that ability)

    I love DKs and rune tetris, but I felt I was a bit of a liability in firelands (where block tanked scaled incredibly well) and am concerned that similar may happen this tier.

  2. #2
    That's just the flavor of the spec. We don't reduce our damage intake, we take the hit to the face and then heal it up, and then sit with a barrier for the next attack. It's inherently spikier, but there were only a couple fights last tier where that really bit us in the ass, and there have been fights where it's borderline overpowered.

    The problem in Firelands is that we were prone to take a dive just from freaking melee attacks, and Death Strike misses didn't heal. Block tanks were ahead because they had absurd control of their combat tables, ensuring that every single attack would be mitigated for a very smooth intake. We, on the other hand, could spike low from poor luck, and then miss with our mitigation leaving us sitting ducks. And this could happen at pretty much any time during the fight, with no telegraph or time to prepare.
    Main reason it wasn't an issue in DS is that the bosses there didn't really melee, Blackhorn aside (and block tanks were better against him unsurprisingly).
    Since then we've gotten a significant armor buff, and we now stand head and shoulders over Warriors in terms of total health. We're no longer as prone to dying from spikes, since something that would barely kill us before the stam buff will now leave us with 100k health, enough to Death Strike back up. In theory...



    Lack of raid utility is a definite issue though. The Blood Worms buff was hefty, and I've saved lives through the sheer luck of having my worms give people clutch 200k heals, but the fact that we have no control of them renders them rather poor in practice.

  3. #3
    Although I understand your analogy of firelands, I don't quite agree. With the change to all tanks to use active mitigation, many bosses will/have been designed around regular spike damage (at relatively short intervals) requiring tanks to use active mitigation (as opposed to shield wall for "boss ability of death" every 3 minutes).

    With that in mind, I am trying to understand if once physical damage begins to ramp up vs. gear (ie undergearing heroic modes), at what points is it preferable that your active mitigation is no longer a shield/shell, but rather a flat damage reduction %.

    For example, just tanking normal horridon last night, it was clear that even without resetting stacks via BOP, SOTR would be substantially better for the triple puncture mechanic. Same thing with tortos bite (probably going to hurt a lot more on heroic). I can only assume it is the same idea with the impale on the quon boss, etc. I'm sure there are more examples (dread thrash last tier).

    I'm not really sure I can think of a fight in T14 that favoured DS/blood shield as a mechanic apart from maybe eating the green orbs on zorlok if you had to, and lei shi (or any heavy magic fight - though DS/WOG should - ?? - be similar in this respect). But in no means did we break the fight like we could for madness of deathwing.
    Last edited by SantaMaria; 2013-03-08 at 02:58 PM.

  4. #4
    We are fine so far. You just need to be using your cooldowns intelligently. In fact we are really solid for a lot of fights, horridon included. Treat Triple puncture like a mini thrash, and stack death strikes before it with BT and you'll be more than fine. Similar concept applies for tortos's Snapping Bite and Ji-Kun's Talon Rake. Could it be that you don't have enough EH for the content? What trinkets are you using?

  5. #5
    Not related to current normal modes, that wasnt an issue. Was looking forward towards heroics (on 10m).

    To answer your question: trinkets am using DMC and Tsulong trinket (replacing it with shadowpan)

    Armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...quire/advanced

    um hehe, ignore the green gems, i just noticed those

  6. #6
    I think that DK's are pretty strong with purgatory they can do things other tanks can't. They have a lot of cooldowns and are very good at single target fights, they can put up about as much as a pally tank and usually require a lot less heals than shield tanks. If you want to get an idea of how DK tanks are you can watch me @ twitch.tv/cantoo and look at my recorded videos.
    Last edited by Cantoo; 2013-03-08 at 05:48 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Reniat View Post
    Treat Triple puncture like a mini thrash, and stack death strikes before it with BT and you'll be more than fine.
    the problem I found is that he kinda hits like a wuss outside of the triple puncture, so for the TP after the swipe my DS heals fall down to 60-70k, especially if I go and dodge it, thus taking no dmg for what, 3s?, would you suggest just standing in the double swipes to get some bigger heals for bigger shields?

  8. #8
    That's an option, or if you are consistently getting only minimum death strikes you could try an EH build for that fight. pop 2xstam trinkets and see if that helps. OR if that doesn't work, just do the old /sit macro and get some extra crits

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    the problem I found is that he kinda hits like a wuss outside of the triple puncture, so for the TP after the swipe my DS heals fall down to 60-70k, especially if I go and dodge it, thus taking no dmg for what, 3s?, would you suggest just standing in the double swipes to get some bigger heals for bigger shields?
    I haven't killed it but I use Death Siphon on that fight.

    You get a tiny bit of DPS out of it but the point is that before high stacks of TP and his enrage it's enough to keep you up (he takes increased damage with each door) and increases the healing for your DS.

    That way you only get gigantic shields on ya,

    Just my 2 cents
    The dragons' flame sealed my fate. The world of the living can no longer comfort me.

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