Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    Discussion about Arms rotation

    So, I'm looking for some tips to increase my dps as an Arms warrior, and I'm willing to share what I've understood so far.

    Before that, it is important to note that I've only tested things with my current gear since I don't have a good Spreadsheet right now. Some assertions may turn out wrong with a different gear.
    Also, I don't know if there's a good notion to compare OP and Slam. Since the main question is 3xOP vs 2xSlam, DPE is not the good value and DPR is not always relevant. I would like to use
    DPS but it isn't the good notion since DPS is meant to compare Dragon Roar vs Stormbolt, for instance. So I will refer to DPgcd (damage per duration of the gcd triggered by the technique), I don't think
    it's an usual term and I would gladly use a better one.

    • OP has a better DPgcd than Slam.
      That means that, during a CS window, 3xOP is better than 2xSlam.

    • OP has a better DPR than Slam.
      That means that, outside of a CS window, OP is better than Slam.

    • Skull Banner increases the DPE of OP more than those of Slam. Recklessness (and every +% crit buff) increases the DPE of Slam more than those of OP.
      • During Recklessness, Slam has a better DPgcd than OP.
      • During Recklessness+Skull banner, Slam has still a slightly better DPgcd than OP.
      • During Recklessness+Skull banner (4PT15), Slam has a better DPgcd than OP.
      That means that during a CS with Recklessness, you should use Slam instead of OP.

      I should provide the same datas for DPR, which is more important than DPgcd outside of a CS window, but I lost my values. I would run some tests again soon.


    ---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 10:37 AM ----------

    What to do during a CS window? Especially, how many OP should we use during a CS window?
    For the sake of clarity, I will only compare the cd of OP/Slam, even if you should use MS instead of Slam when available.
    These two technique have a similar DPE so it's not a huge approximation.
    Edit: I was told it wasn't clear. In the following, I will sometimes say something like "you can fit 2xOP and 3xSlam in a CS window", what I mean is that you can fit 2 OP and 3 non-OP techniques. Since MS and Slam trigger the same gcd, the distinction MS/Slam is not very important in a timing discussion. And since they deal roughly the same damage it's actually not important in a damage discussion either.
    Tl;dr When I say "Slam", if MS is not on cooldown you should read "MS".



    First, for obvious reasons you should never end a CS by an OP. If there is less than 1s remaining to the CS debuff, Slam is always better than OP.

    Then, the question of "how many OP":
    • A CS windows lasts 6.5+ seconds.
      That means that, in perfect condition, every technique in this sequence fit in the CS debuff: CS-OP-OP-Slam-Slam-Slam.
      Actually, that's the best you can fit in a CS window. It requires to have no delay on technique, so you can't do this while moving and you have to be careful with MS, for instance MS-CS-OP-OP-MS-Slam-Slam is not a correct sequence since MS will be used on cooldown and won't be "pre-loaded" (I don't remember the good term for this mechanism.)

      You can, of course, replace 2xSlam by 3xOP, which make it deals even more damage but require to delay MS until the very end of the sequence CS-OP-OP-OP-OP-OP-MS which is a rage loss and is not possible if you don't have enough TfB stacks.

      In conclusion, a 2-OP CS (or 5-OP CS) is the best sequence damage-wise but may be tricky and leads to mistakes or rage starvation, also it is hard to do it several times in a row in case of CS procs.
      You can fit 2xOP and 3xSlam, or 5xOP and 1xSlam with such a sequence.

    • If you cannot manage to achieve such a CS sequence, the second better option is a 0-OP CS (or 3-OP CS).
      It' still abusing the fact that a CS window lasts slightly longer than 6 seconds.

      It is really easy to use it consistently and you should almost never fail it even in movement.
      It's the CS sequence I use almost everytime, since I'm cautious.
      The 3-OP sequences should look like one of these :
      • MS-CS-OP-OP-MS-OP-Slam
      • MS-xx-CS-OP-MS-OP-OP-Slam
      • MS-xx-xx-CS-MS-OP-OP-OP-MS
      Note that the last one may be a bit tight since you use two MS on cd which delays the sequence.
      I'd rather do MS-xx-xx-CS-OP-MS-OP-OP-MS, even if it means delaying an MS, but again I may be too cautious.

      In conclusion, a 0-OP CS (or 3-OP CS) is a bit of a dps loss but is easier to use and more convenient in case of successive CS proc.
      You fit 3xOP and 2xSlam, or 0xOP and 4xSlam.

    • At last, using a 1-OP sequence (or a 4-OP sequence) is probably the worst CS sequence.
      I can't find any way to justify this kind of sequence.
      It leads to a CS with only 1xOP and 3xSlam or 4xOP and 1xSlam.

    Conclusion: I highly recommend to try to always deal a 3xOP 2xSlam sequence. It's easy, it won't lead you to rage gap and it can be easily chained if you have several CS procs. During Recklessness it should be replaced by a 4xSlam sequence.
    Last edited by Senen; 2013-03-14 at 12:41 PM.

  2. #2
    Hi there , thank you for this organized and structured "mini-guide" , it reflects my experience quite well. But my question is : How to effectively manage rage? If I get severall CS->3xOP->2xSlam sequences in a row , after the 2nd or 3rd I get ragestarved and if my SD luck continues , I feel like losing a fking lot of dps. I am only 488ilvl though , but do my good 90-100k dps on the most encounters. Does this flatten out with gear or do I something wrong?

  3. #3
    High Overlord Sevenfold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Tuscaloosa, AL
    Posts
    149
    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    For the sake of clarity, I will only compare the cd of OP/Slam, even if you should use MS instead of Slam when available.
    Your post is a little confusing. This part in particular doesn't make much sense. I'll try to be helpful anyway, but it's very possible I'm just misunderstanding a lot of what you're saying.


    A CS windows lasts 6.5+ seconds.
    That means that, in perfect condition, every technique in this sequence fit in the CS debuff: CS-OP-OP-Slam-Slam-Slam.
    A CS window lasts exactly 6.5 seconds. You'll never have zero latency and you'll never have 100% perfect timing, so I don't believe your last slam will ever fit into a CS. Slam also costs 20 rage, so you'd need to start your CS window with a minimum of 80 rage even if they would fit.

    Realistically you'll want to try to have at least 1 charge of TfB pooled prior to hitting CS. Then your sequence will look like this: CS-MS-OP-OP-OP-MS. This is rage positive, allows .5 seconds of wiggle room to account for latency/timing, and allows you to frequently work in 1 or 2 Heroic Strikes as well. It does still require low latency and excellent timing to avoid hitting your last MS outside the CS window.

    Slam is generally better used outside of CS when you have excess rage, or during a CS when you did not have a TfB charge pooled and/or Mortal Strike was not off cooldown immediately following CS.

  4. #4
    Edit: I've editing my first message, since it wasn't clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sevenfold View Post
    Your post is a little confusing. This part in particular doesn't make much sense. I'll try to be helpful anyway, but it's very possible I'm just misunderstanding a lot of what you're saying.
    Sorry, I wrote a bit fast. What I meant is that you want to count how much OP and how much non-OP technique you can use during a CS window.
    Basically, I could have made no distinction between Slam and MS as it's not important in the discussion "how many OP shoud I use?" since they trigger the same gcd. Moreover, they deal roughly the same amount of damage, so even damage-wise it matters less than optimizing the number of OP/non-OP technique used.

    However, I made a distinction between MS and Slam since MS has a cooldown, meaning you will have a little delay if you try to use it on cooldown. You take slightly more time to do MS-OP-OP-OP-MS than Slam-OP-OP-OP-Slam.

    To be clear, the sentence you quoted was meant to explain why I say "you can fit 3xOP and 2xSlam" instead of "you can fit 3xOP and 2xMS, or 3xOP and 2xSlam, or 3xOP and 1xMS and 1xSlam". This case distinction doesn't matter in this discussion.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 12:25 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Sevenfold View Post
    A CS window lasts exactly 6.5 seconds. You'll never have zero latency and you'll never have 100% perfect timing, so I don't believe your last slam will ever fit into a CS. Slam also costs 20 rage, so you'd need to start your CS window with a minimum of 80 rage even if they would fit.
    That's why I said that even if it's the best sequence damage-wise, realistically it's better to use the 3-OP sequence.
    Nevertheless, I tried this sequence several times against a dummy and I'm 100% positive that you can fit all the sequence in a CS window.
    (I used an ilvl 1 weapon, no weapon enchant, no proc trinket and make sure to never try the sequence while enrage. I only did MS to earn rage and then CS-OP-OP-Slam-Slam-Slam. Rince and repeat. That way, it's easy to look at Slam's damages and see if it hit during the CS debuff or not.)

    Also, if you don't try to use a MS on cooldown, the latency shouldn't be a problem (except if you have a latency higher than the time needed for a pre-loading.) If you spam a technique before the end of the gcd, the game pre-load the technique and will use it at the exact moment when the gcd ends.

    Slam is generally better used outside of CS when you have excess rage, or during a CS when you did not have a TfB charge pooled and/or Mortal Strike was not off cooldown immediately following CS.
    No. Slam should be used :
    - During CS, as a filler if you've used 3xOP and MS is on cooldown
    - Outside of a CS window if you have 1 stack of TfB and your next gcd is not a MS (or if you have 0 stack of TfB, but that shouldn't happen, since we try to save 1 stack for the next CS window.)

    Slam shouldn't be used to dump rage when you have rage excess since its DPR is worse than those of OP. So, iff you have rage excess, you should HS, if possible during a CS, and even better during an enraged-CS or a bloodbath-CS or any other buff you could have.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 12:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Executia View Post
    Hi there , thank you for this organized and structured "mini-guide" , it reflects my experience quite well. But my question is : How to effectively manage rage? If I get severall CS->3xOP->2xSlam sequences in a row , after the 2nd or 3rd I get ragestarved and if my SD luck continues , I feel like losing a fking lot of dps. I am only 488ilvl though , but do my good 90-100k dps on the most encounters. Does this flatten out with gear or do I something wrong?
    Maybe my explanation above may have helped you. When I said "Slam" in my previous post, it means "MS, or Slam is MS is on cooldown", so you shouldn't really be using several Slam in a row.
    If you're doing 3-OP sequence, a sequence of three CS looks like this : MS-CS-OP-OP-MS-OP-Slam-CS-MS-OP-OP-OP-MS-CS-OP-OP-MS-OP-Slam
    As mentioned above, if you're starting with at least 1 TfB stack, you can chain CS sequences without trouble. I've never experienced rage starvation in such a sequence, you're using very few Slam so it shouldn't be a problem.
    Last edited by Senen; 2013-03-14 at 12:46 PM.

  5. #5
    What I've been doing during CS is 3xOP+MS (never delay MS it's not worth it) and then for the last ability either MS, CS and if these 2 are not available slam.
    So CS-MS-OP-OP-OP-MS, CS-OP-MS-OP-OP-CS or CS-OP-MS-OP-OP-slam
    I try to save 1 stack of tfb in case CS ends up just before a MS. I seriously doubt that 2-5OP CSs are a dpsgain since delaying MS will just hurt dps.

    I'm not sure that during recklessness slam should overtake OP. Skullbanner should be up during recklessness which makes the DPET of slam&OP really close, 3xOP gives 1 more chance at an oppertunity strike, 3x OP costs 10rage less and you have MS 1.5 sec sooner for an additional 10 rage. Rather have 1 extra HS with bloodbath up then use 2xslam. Using 2x slam just feels slow might consider doing it when I get 4p T15 not before.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by bigbad View Post
    What I've been doing during CS is 3xOP+MS (never delay MS it's not worth it) and then for the last ability either MS, CS and if these 2 are not available slam.
    So CS-MS-OP-OP-OP-MS, CS-OP-MS-OP-OP-CS or CS-OP-MS-OP-OP-slam
    I try to save 1 stack of tfb in case CS ends up just before a MS. I seriously doubt that 2-5OP CSs are a dpsgain since delaying MS will just hurt dps.
    I'm not sure for 5-OP CS either, indeed. For 2-OP CS, you don't need to delay your MS, so it does not hurt rage generation.
    I don't understand why you would do CS-OP-MS-OP-OP-CS instead of CS-OP-MS-OP-OP-slam, it looks like you're wasting a gcd under CS, i.e. you lose dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbad View Post
    I'm not sure that during recklessness slam should overtake OP. Skullbanner should be up during recklessness which makes the DPET of slam&OP really close, 3xOP gives 1 more chance at an oppertunity strike, 3x OP costs 10rage less and you have MS 1.5 sec sooner for an additional 10 rage. Rather have 1 extra HS with bloodbath up then use 2xslam. Using 2x slam just feels slow might consider doing it when I get 4p T15 not before.
    Without 4pT15, as I said OP is slightly better. I think it's hard to really evaluate which is better since it depends largely on your crit (and your +% crit buffs from your trinkets). I prefer OP>Slam since OP will always crit so it's less rng-dependant, but I do better engages using Slam>OP during the first CS when all my cooldowns are used.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    I'm not sure for 5-OP CS either, indeed. For 2-OP CS, you don't need to delay your MS, so it does not hurt rage generation.
    I don't understand why you would do CS-OP-MS-OP-OP-CS instead of CS-OP-MS-OP-OP-slam, it looks like you're wasting a gcd under CS, i.e. you lose dps.
    Using CS as last ability will give you a higher CS uptime, less wasted procs and saves some rage. The difference in damage between CS and slam is small enough that this is a dps increase. Not doing this sims as a 1k dps decrease resulting in 37 CS used instead of 39.
    Last edited by bigbad; 2013-03-14 at 02:09 PM.

  8. #8
    Interesting.
    I may have overestimated the gap between the DPE of CS and those of Slam (used to Fury where CS damages are rather low.)
    It's true that you're barely losing CS uptime and you will waste less procs.
    I'll test it. Thanks for the advice!

  9. #9
    I've been doing:

    MS, CS, OP, OP, MS, OP, SL. Seems to give the best results.

    I know Reck and SB make SL more valuable, but I feel going out of your way to emphasize SL over OP tends to make for a messy rotation and screwy rage gen. I haven't tested as much in raids though, gonna give it more of a try tonight vs. Tortos(fairly simple fight to try out DPS rotations for melee).

  10. #10
    High Overlord Sevenfold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Tuscaloosa, AL
    Posts
    149
    I guess I misunderstood parts of your original post. It sounds like we more or less agree on the basics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    You take slightly more time to do MS-OP-OP-OP-MS than Slam-OP-OP-OP-Slam.
    What am I missing here? MS has a 6 second cooldown and you have 4.5 seconds of GCDs as well as reducing the cooldown of MS by 3 seconds. I can't think of any reason there would be a delay prior to the last MS or that the total sequence would take longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Senen
    Also, if you don't try to use a MS on cooldown, the latency shouldn't be a problem
    But you do want to use MS on cooldown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Senen
    No. Slam should be used :
    - During CS, as a filler if you've used 3xOP and MS is on cooldown
    - Outside of a CS window if you have 1 stack of TfB and your next gcd is not a MS (or if you have 0 stack of TfB, but that shouldn't happen, since we try to save 1 stack for the next CS window.)
    That's basically what I said but I guess I could have been more specific.

    Quote Originally Posted by Senen
    Slam shouldn't be used to dump rage when you have rage excess since its DPR is worse than those of OP. So, iff you have rage excess, you should HS, if possible during a CS, and even better during an enraged-CS or a bloodbath-CS or any other buff you could have.
    Disagree. Why would DPR be a concern when you're in danger of rage capping? You just want want to turn the excess rage into as much damage as possible regardless of how efficient it is. So outside of CS windows with a near-full rage bar using your talented filler (Dragon Roar, Storm Bolt, Impending Victory) + HS or, if they are on CD, then Slam or even Slam+HS is the best way to turn the excess rage into damage. Since Storm Bolt and IV are fairly uncommon talent choices, you'll pretty frequently have a good opportunity to burn rage this way.

  11. #11
    I've done a lot of testing with this and I feel I can a few things.

    1) It IS possible to utilize the full 6.5 seconds of CS debuff. However, you have to take into account latency and queue up abilities at w/e timing is necessary. This can be impractical or painfully hard to do in a raid environment with a lot going on, especially if large effects are going on. The concept is simple as 0.0=cs debuff applied, 6.5= cs debuff falls off, 1.5, 3.0, 4.5, 5.5, 6.5 as the time in which an ability is used.

    2) I don't see any notes utilizing t14 2pc, which raises MS to 219% (1% less) than Slam. The closeness of damage, accompanied by possible Enrage effect (if Bzr Rage is on cd), the bonus rage which may allow a Heroic Strike, etc, have me suggesting that MS>Slam for CS debuff. So, optimally (and I've tossed it around else where on these forums) is CS followed by 2(1) MS's, 2 OP's and 1(2) Slams based on if MS is on cd or not. (Ideally, CS->MS->Slam->OPx2->MS, however you can swap abilities as long as you save a 1.5 gcd ability for the last attack).

    3) Stormbolt is doing really strongly for Arms (utilizing a 2hander's weapon damage with the bonus Seasoned Soldier damage) and has the highest dpe among Arms abilities and easily replaces Slam during CS. This further lowers the amount of Slams you'd typically do in a fight.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sevenfold View Post
    What am I missing here? MS has a 6 second cooldown and you have 4.5 seconds of GCDs as well as reducing the cooldown of MS by 3 seconds. I can't think of any reason there would be a delay prior to the last MS or that the total sequence would take longer.
    The way the game queue up abilities is a bit tricky. If you're spamming an ability before the end of the gcd, the game will queue this ability so that you use it as soon as the gcd is finished. Slam-OP-OP-OP-Slam should take you 6 seconds whatever latency you have.
    This queue up mechanism doesn't work if the ability you're trying to cast is on cooldown (on its cooldown, not on gcd). That's why MS-OP-OP-OP-MS should take a bit more than 6 seconds, depending on your latency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sevenfold View Post
    Disagree. Why would DPR be a concern when you're in danger of rage capping? You just want want to turn the excess rage into as much damage as possible regardless of how efficient it is. So outside of CS windows with a near-full rage bar using your talented filler (Dragon Roar, Storm Bolt, Impending Victory) + HS or, if they are on CD, then Slam or even Slam+HS is the best way to turn the excess rage into damage. Since Storm Bolt and IV are fairly uncommon talent choices, you'll pretty frequently have a good opportunity to burn rage this way.
    DPR is a concern because it basically says that using Slam instead of OP means using more rage for less damage. Even if you're going to rage cap, that's not the good solution. If you have to dump rage, you want to HS.
    However, if you want to HS, you want to do it during a CS debuff. To that extent, I agree that you may use Slam instead of OP to stay below the rage cap and delay your HS until your next CS., as long as you don't hit the TfB cap. But you'd had better anticipate well enough to use HS during a former CS.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 10:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Recke View Post
    I've done a lot of testing with this and I feel I can a few things.

    1) It IS possible to utilize the full 6.5 seconds of CS debuff. However, you have to take into account latency and queue up abilities at w/e timing is necessary. This can be impractical or painfully hard to do in a raid environment with a lot going on, especially if large effects are going on. The concept is simple as 0.0=cs debuff applied, 6.5= cs debuff falls off, 1.5, 3.0, 4.5, 5.5, 6.5 as the time in which an ability is used.

    2) I don't see any notes utilizing t14 2pc, which raises MS to 219% (1% less) than Slam. The closeness of damage, accompanied by possible Enrage effect (if Bzr Rage is on cd), the bonus rage which may allow a Heroic Strike, etc, have me suggesting that MS>Slam for CS debuff. So, optimally (and I've tossed it around else where on these forums) is CS followed by 2(1) MS's, 2 OP's and 1(2) Slams based on if MS is on cd or not. (Ideally, CS->MS->Slam->OPx2->MS, however you can swap abilities as long as you save a 1.5 gcd ability for the last attack).
    So, you're playing with 2-OP sequences. Do you have any rage issue? I tried it a bit and found this gameplay difficult since you can easily mess with a CS or get rage starved when having several CS in a row.

    Quote Originally Posted by Recke View Post
    3) Stormbolt is doing really strongly for Arms (utilizing a 2hander's weapon damage with the bonus Seasoned Soldier damage) and has the highest dpe among Arms abilities and easily replaces Slam during CS. This further lowers the amount of Slams you'd typically do in a fight.
    I haven't tried Stormbolt yet. I was worried that the delay of this attack (iirc, the damage are dealt when your weapon hits the target, not when you press the button) may get it out of CS window sometimes. Is it an issue or the delay when you're in melee range is short enough?

  13. #13
    Your opener should look like this: Charge -> MS -> CS -> OP -> SLAM -> SLAM (I'm not really sure about this) after that you will try to keep 1 tfb stack up always if there is no cs on target, when cs gets applied on target you will do following: MS -> OP -> OP -> OP -> SLAM -> MS. After that you are at 2 stacks of Tfb, use one charge and use two slams if sudden death has not procced. If CS is not up and you should use slam, use Dragon Roar atleast.

  14. #14
    Yiris why would you delay your 2nd MS that just looks like rubbish. I'm using MS>OP>bloodbath+banner+dragonroar>reck+CS>MS>3xOP>MS as opener using darkmooncard+lei shen's as trinkets it gives them a few gcds to proc, depending on your trinkets you might want to remove the first OP.
    Last edited by bigbad; 2013-03-15 at 09:49 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by bigbad View Post
    Yiris why would you delay your 2nd MS that just looks like rubbish. I'm using MS>OP>bloodbath+banner+dragonroar>reck+CS>MS>3xOP>MS as opener using darkmooncard+lei shen's as trinkets it gives them a few gcds to proc, depending on your trinkets you might want to remove the first OP.
    You mean on opener? but like I said I'm not sure about opening because trinkets, boss moving and latency affects it a bit, but you are right, I am delaying second MS for some odd reason.

  16. #16
    High Overlord Pippo89's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Switzerland
    Posts
    161
    Thanks for sharing, good informations for my offspec and more understandable than other threads I've read.

    I'm sure you will be able to answer my question:
    I like the buffed Storm Bolt and I always use it during CS and with berserker rage if it's not up.
    - When is the best moment during the CS-cycle to use it?
    - ...or do I suck because I play with Storm Bolt and should rather play with Bloodbath / Avatar? I had BB as Fury pre 5.2 and wanted something new..
    The roots of evil are deep. Irreversibly so in the hearts of men.

  17. #17
    Arms is gcd capped that's the reason I haven't tried stormbolt yet, bloodbath just seems better. If you can get it into the last 0.5 sec of CS use it then else a bit earlier.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    The way the game queue up abilities is a bit tricky. If you're spamming an ability before the end of the gcd, the game will queue this ability so that you use it as soon as the gcd is finished. Slam-OP-OP-OP-Slam should take you 6 seconds whatever latency you have.
    This queue up mechanism doesn't work if the ability you're trying to cast is on cooldown (on its cooldown, not on gcd). That's why MS-OP-OP-OP-MS should take a bit more than 6 seconds, depending on your latency.
    This was true as of the last expansion, but it was fixed with MoP. Abilities on CD can be queued prior to their CD expiring now.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Xanthan View Post
    This was true as of the last expansion, but it was fixed with MoP. Abilities on CD can be queued prior to their CD expiring now.
    Are you sure? I still feel a bit of a delay when trying to queue MS on cd.
    I'll try a MS-xx-xx-CS-MS-OP-OP-Slam-MS sequence, then, if MS is queued even on cd it should fit in a CS.

  20. #20
    So spamming OP is better than spamming slam even at cds? O_o

    cause i always do smt like this: CS>dragon>MS>allcds>slam>slam>slam>ms>slam slam slam

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •