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  1. #241
    Well you said you were guarding a tower in AV, you left the tower to attack the rogue while the rogue was opening on you im sure all the archers that are on the towers in av were just beating on you. No way a rogue killed you in 3 seconds by himself. And if he did, shame on you. Monks have 2 trinkets, 15 sec CD heal Dampen Harm (usable while stunned) Touch of Karma/ the cd that gives you health/damage mitigation (Forgot the name) With all these cd's there is NO reason a monk should get globaled by any class.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    Your ignorance is amazing. I was answering his question on how I thought a dk's survival was shit. I answered did I not? I didn't whine when I answered it. I simply stated why i think dk's were easy to take down. Also mages don't sacrifice shit to live and neither do rogues at the moment. A good one will keep you completely locked down and burst you through your cool downs. The point of this thread is that rogues are absurd and so far that statement is true.
    Elusiveness requires Energy... exactly like Conversion requires Runic Power.

    Rogues aren't any more absurd than God Comp is.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 02:20 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tapzer View Post
    Well you said you were guarding a tower in AV, you left the tower to attack the rogue while the rogue was opening on you im sure all the archers that are on the towers in av were just beating on you. No way a rogue killed you in 3 seconds by himself. And if he did, shame on you. Monks have 2 trinkets, 15 sec CD heal Dampen Harm (usable while stunned) Touch of Karma/ the cd that gives you health/damage mitigation (Forgot the name) With all these cd's there is NO reason a monk should get globaled by any class.
    Uh... 15 sec CD on EXPEL harm, which is not usable while stunned... but other than that, yes, monks shouldn't have an issue with rogues at all.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Tapzer View Post
    Well you said you were guarding a tower in AV, you left the tower to attack the rogue while the rogue was opening on you im sure all the archers that are on the towers in av were just beating on you. No way a rogue killed you in 3 seconds by himself. And if he did, shame on you. Monks have 2 trinkets, 15 sec CD heal Dampen Harm (usable while stunned) Touch of Karma/ the cd that gives you health/damage mitigation (Forgot the name) With all these cd's there is NO reason a monk should get globaled by any class.
    Trinket -> Ring of Peace, umad rogue?

  4. #244
    When a hunter gets disarmed all they can really do is sit there with their thumbs up their butts. When a rogue gets disarmed they can just spam shuriken toss and deadly throw to keep their opponent slowed/silenced while bursting them down. Seems balanced.

  5. #245
    What is really funny for me is the fact that to be honest, rogues didn't get that many buffs. For instance sub gained like 4% more damage on SV and thats about it. The only really strong buffs they got are prep baseline and shorted CloS, for a price of 30s longer Blind. Shuriken got changed, and i feel like i prefered old version better, as it wasn't doing that much damage but it applied non-lethal poisons which was amazing for me, now it shifted around from utility skill to some serious ranged damage ability.
    And i remember not that long ago in 5.1 that even non-rogues asked for rogue buffs as they viewed them as free kills.
    Ergo i blame it on effect of placebo. Not that they are weak now, they are very powerful, but maybe they weren't all that weak back in 5.1 (damage was right there!) as some ppl made them look like.
    Shorter cd on CloS is needed in a world of manyyyyy 30s dots some applied by aoe's and 40s Faerie Fire's.
    For Prep, i dont like cds reseetting cds personally, so that a no no for me. Would prefer shorter cd on Vanish, Evasion, Sprint.
    and for me as said earlier old Shuriken Toss was better.

    Overall game is unbalanced into oblivion, its hard to point out op things as everything seems like that. Burst is absurd.

  6. #246
    Ohh they're not that bad come on

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by FAILoZOFF View Post
    What is really funny for me is the fact that to be honest, rogues didn't get that many buffs. For instance sub gained like 4% more damage on SV and thats about it. The only really strong buffs they got are prep baseline and shorted CloS, for a price of 30s longer Blind. Shuriken got changed, and i feel like i prefered old version better, as it wasn't doing that much damage but it applied non-lethal poisons which was amazing for me, now it shifted around from utility skill to some serious ranged damage ability.
    And i remember not that long ago in 5.1 that even non-rogues asked for rogue buffs as they viewed them as free kills.
    Ergo i blame it on effect of placebo. Not that they are weak now, they are very powerful, but maybe they weren't all that weak back in 5.1 (damage was right there!) as some ppl made them look like.
    Shorter cd on CloS is needed in a world of manyyyyy 30s dots some applied by aoe's and 40s Faerie Fire's.
    For Prep, i dont like cds reseetting cds personally, so that a no no for me. Would prefer shorter cd on Vanish, Evasion, Sprint.
    and for me as said earlier old Shuriken Toss was better.

    Overall game is unbalanced into oblivion, its hard to point out op things as everything seems like that. Burst is absurd.
    `

    Finally someone that understands it, Rogues got buffed the wrong way, if they would just change ST so it doesnt build combo points and spam interrupt at range that ability would be fine. I would like rogues to have to choose to use cos offensively or defensively, so prep revanish would require a cos cause dots would run. Now in its current state with the rogue openers and cos its more or less " looooolz u cant cc me while I roflstomp you, trolololol" Cos on a 1 min cd combined with rogue wall is just too much in arena, especially cause rogues can vanish out of shit aswell in its current incarnation. Rogues dmg is fine even with the buffs, its just not counterable too much of the time with the prep change. they could make prep a 5 min ability like readiness or cold snap ( which used to be 8 minutes) so it isnt something thats used stupidly but make prep reset cos which would be on a 1,5 min cd then.
    I dont know but as a wlock rogues take all the fun out of destro and affli is hits less than dk diseases, so its only sp or mage atm, and id much rather see some changes and make a wlock comp more viable.

    In all I think rogues need a small tweak in their opener, force some real choices, big dmg means being exposed, or smaller dmg but safer. I think powershot stampede deterrence is bs aswell make players make choices between offensive and defensive.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Yaraza View Post
    When a hunter gets disarmed all they can really do is sit there with their thumbs up their butts. When a rogue gets disarmed they can just spam shuriken toss and deadly throw to keep their opponent slowed/silenced while bursting them down. Seems balanced.
    It's funny beacuse pet deals the majority of damage.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by impfernal View Post
    `

    Finally someone that understands it, Rogues got buffed the wrong way, if they would just change ST so it doesnt build combo points and spam interrupt at range that ability would be fine. I would like rogues to have to choose to use cos offensively or defensively, so prep revanish would require a cos cause dots would run. Now in its current state with the rogue openers and cos its more or less " looooolz u cant cc me while I roflstomp you, trolololol" Cos on a 1 min cd combined with rogue wall is just too much in arena, especially cause rogues can vanish out of shit aswell in its current incarnation. Rogues dmg is fine even with the buffs, its just not counterable too much of the time with the prep change. they could make prep a 5 min ability like readiness or cold snap ( which used to be 8 minutes) so it isnt something thats used stupidly but make prep reset cos which would be on a 1,5 min cd then.
    I dont know but as a wlock rogues take all the fun out of destro and affli is hits less than dk diseases, so its only sp or mage atm, and id much rather see some changes and make a wlock comp more viable.

    In all I think rogues need a small tweak in their opener, force some real choices, big dmg means being exposed, or smaller dmg but safer. I think powershot stampede deterrence is bs aswell make players make choices between offensive and defensive.
    That's pretty much the problem atm - there's so much shit going on that nerfs to rogues will put them down for another season. I've no clue how to fix a game with stuff like ring of peace disarming you for full duration ignoring your anti-disarm enchants, or DKs runing around with 3 stun/fear counters and ams making them nearly immune to cc, SPs with their retarded utility, mages with overabudance of intant CC and insane dmg, caster classes almost never casting etc., mindless RBGs giving more conquest then arena for completly no reason (my server has fuckton of 2.2K+ RBG teams and only a few high raited arena teams and still RBGs have upper hand in gearing whille most of ppls playing them are runing with 1500-1700 arena raiting with hundreds games played).

    Honestly at this point i stoped really carrying about balance and take what's hapenning for granted. In BGs suriken toss + deadly throw is fucked up - i solo hunters/mages with it np, in arenas its not really that great since rogues have enough mobility to be on target rather then go into ranged combat. But then again i also play unholy DK and i must say that they feel so fucked up with deceases outdpsing locks dots, lots of immunities.

    Imo atm if your class isn't overboard then it's fucked, since majority of classes are overtuned. Take afli lock for example - looks solid and balanced: lots of active defences, some spread dmg and actually have to cast to deal serious dmg. But then again why ever take affli lock when you can take SP who've lot more utility then affli and is harder to shut down? Why take destro lock instead of mage who've better burst, is easier to land casts on, have more kiting tools? Problem is that balanced locks (affli dmg destribution is fucked up though, dunno if it's even possible to fix it in this expansion) pale in comparison to imbalanced SPs and Mages.

    So the long story short: leave rogues alone, they aren't even close to ruining ladders like warriors did last season.
    Last edited by Nyaldee; 2013-03-21 at 06:59 AM.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyaldee View Post
    That's pretty much the problem atm - there's so much shit going on that nerfs to rogues will put them down for another season. I've no clue how to fix a game with stuff like ring of peace disarming you for full duration ignoring your anti-disarm enchants, or DKs runing around with 3 stun/fear counters and ams making them nearly immune to cc, SPs with their retarded utility, mages with overabudance of intant CC and insane dmg, caster classes almost never casting etc., mindless RBGs giving more conquest then arena for completly no reason (my server has fuckton of 2.2K+ RBG teams and only a few high raited arena teams and still RBGs have upper hand in gearing whille most of ppls playing them are runing with 1500-1700 arena raiting with hundreds games played).

    Honestly at this point i stoped really carrying about balance and take what's hapenning for granted. In BGs suriken toss + deadly throw is fucked up - i solo hunters/mages with it np, in arenas its not really that great since rogues have enough mobility to be on target rather then go into ranged combat. But then again i also play unholy DK and i must say that they feel so fucked up with deceases outdpsing locks dots, lots of immunities.

    Imo atm if your class isn't overboard then it's fucked, since majority of classes are overtuned. Take afli lock for example - looks solid and balanced: lots of active defences, some spread dmg and actually have to cast to deal serious dmg. But then again why ever take affli lock when you can take SP who've lot more utility then affli and is harder to shut down? Why take destro lock instead of mage who've better burst, is easier to land casts on, have more kiting tools? Problem is that balanced locks (affli dmg destribution is fucked up though, dunno if it's even possible to fix it in this expansion) pale in comparison to imbalanced SPs and Mages.

    So the long story short: leave rogues alone, they aren't even close to ruining ladders like warriors did last season.
    I agree with you on most points, rogues need a tweak of some sort though but they are mostly fine, even the dmg, cause lets be honest they hit like wet noodles when theyre not bursting or opening( I am a wlock). Off topic Azael said that buffing dots and diminishing mg dmg would fix affli(30/30), seriously its not fun at all atm when you see second wind just dropping your dots) and you cant mg any melee cause you just get charged, sw, pummeled etc.

    All in all rogues need a tweak of sorts but PVP in general needs an overhaul

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    You are either biased, bad at math, or both.

    Rogues were wretched last season. Top rogues all specced arms on their shiny warriors. Warriors were more represented above 2200 than any class ever has been. Rogues were less represented above 2200 than any class ever has been. It was objectively the least balanced season in the history of WoW.

    Rogues were terrible, simply awful. Your statement has no basis in fact, and smells of butthurt player who only had rank because he was on the least balanced class ever, in any season, in the whole game of WoW.
    Arena representation is in no way indicative of a classes power or balance in relation to other classes. Just because more people played Warriors past 2200 than rogue, doesn't mean for a second that rogues were in a bad place.

    It just means that more people played warriors...

    You can ask WHY they played warriors, and the answer would have been 'warriors in 5.0 and 5.1 were MUCH EASIER TO FACEROLL TO HIGHER ARENA RATINGS THAN ROGUES.' Meanwhile, good rogues were still getting high arena ratings.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Ventolin View Post
    PS: In before
    L2p
    Lol 1v1
    Rogues are fine
    But I can't kill warriors, boo-hoo
    You answered your post yourself, whats the problem? The problem is you.

    I pvp as a WW monk and I get fucking giddy when I see rogues and warriors. What is your problem? Don't like all the WW buffs we got? TOO many of your CD's have no cost now? lol what the fuck.


    edit: real talk "I opened with paralysis"
    Last edited by kippi; 2013-03-22 at 05:43 PM.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    Arena representation is in no way indicative of a classes power or balance in relation to other classes. Just because more people played Warriors past 2200 than rogue, doesn't mean for a second that rogues were in a bad place.

    It just means that more people played warriors...
    However, if the warrior representation is 20% above 2.2k while they only have a global representation of 10% and a rogue is sitting on 1% with a global representation of 5%, you know rogues are in a terrible state and warriors are overpowered.
    ( I just made up these numbers now, but they shouldn't be off too much).

    While a representation alone doesn't say anything, comparing the representation above a certain rating to the global representation of that class does.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Myci View Post
    Wow isnt balanced for 1v1. Wait and see how it is in 3s. I can see rogue being insanely good in some comps( rmp, dancing with the stars) buuut i think that might be more from how mages are and how op beam ina vortex bomb will be. Calling something op when your not even fully geared yourself based on a 1v1 is silly.
    It should really be balanced for 1v1 though, and I am only bringing this up because you mention it in your post it could have been anyone. Not balancing around 1v1 is probably the biggest flaw wow has for pvp. I mean if you balance 1v1 then logically the rest of the game is balanced.

    At the moment we have boxes with jelly beans in them, some have 1 some have 2 and others have 3. Now I ask you to give me 2 sets of 3 boxes with an equal amount of jelly beans. There multiple combinations to get there, some of the boxes will have more jelly beans and be the 'stronger' of the set, some less and the weaker.

    If all the boxes had the same quantity of jelly beans there is no balancing at the set level. This is why pvp should be balanced 1v1.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    However, if the warrior representation is 20% above 2.2k while they only have a global representation of 10% and a rogue is sitting on 1% with a global representation of 5%, you know rogues are in a terrible state and warriors are overpowered.
    ( I just made up these numbers now, but they shouldn't be off too much).

    While a representation alone doesn't say anything, comparing the representation above a certain rating to the global representation of that class does.
    Or maybe it just shows that a less complicated class with a much more fun play style and a super strong easy to play comp attracts more players. Rogues got glad last season. Rogues got rank 1 last season, in blues even.

    And maybe the truth is the players who rolled rogues, who made up all those RLS teams in S11, who took many times as many glad spots as warriors in S11, didn't like having to utilize all their CC and setup kills for their partner, they did not want to be that support role coming off a season where they got to kill people in cheapshots all day. Stun and Gun was no longer the class design, so they quit or rerolled Warrior which had been turned into Stun and Gun.

    And now that Rogue is stun and gun again, they angrily defend the class in forums like this fearful they might not have an overpowered class to play on next season. Gasp what if they nerf rogues and made Warlocks fotm, THERE WOULD BE NO STUN AND GUN!!!!!!!!!!!!! They might have to like learn to play. No wait, Feral Druids.
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  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Or maybe it just shows that a less complicated class with a much more fun play style and a super strong easy to play comp attracts more players. Rogues got glad last season. Rogues got rank 1 last season, in blues even.

    And maybe the truth is the players who rolled rogues, who made up all those RLS teams in S11, who took many times as many glad spots as warriors in S11, didn't like having to utilize all their CC and setup kills for their partner, they did not want to be that support role coming off a season where they got to kill people in cheapshots all day. Stun and Gun was no longer the class design, so they quit or rerolled Warrior which had been turned into Stun and Gun.

    And now that Rogue is stun and gun again, they angrily defend the class in forums like this fearful they might not have an overpowered class to play on next season. Gasp what if they nerf rogues and made Warlocks fotm, THERE WOULD BE NO STUN AND GUN!!!!!!!!!!!!! They might have to like learn to play. No wait, Feral Druids.
    What did you get last season?

    Also, keeping an eye on this: http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-0-0.html

    We'll see what Rogues look like as the next few weeks progress, but their representation is definitely higher. Hard to say anything yet as we're only a week or two into the season.

  17. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    Or maybe it just shows that a less complicated class with a much more fun play style and a super strong easy to play comp attracts more players. Rogues got glad last season. Rogues got rank 1 last season, in blues even.
    If that was the case, the global representation would go up, not the representation above 2.2k

    Since I don't think you fully understand how it all works, I'll explain it.

    The global representation shows what percentage of the total player base are playing a certain class, regardless of rating. A 10% global warrior representation would mean, that of all arena players, regardless of rating, 10% are warriors.
    The representation above 2.2k shows what percentage of the total player base above 2.2k are playing a certain class. A 20% representation above 2.2k for warriors would mean, that of all players above 2.2k, 20% are warriors.

    What shows the class balance is the difference between 2.2k rep and global rep. In a perfectly balanced world, the global and 2.2k rep should be equal, however, a 10% difference between those numbers is acceptable. In case of my warrior example, if the global rep is 10%, the 2.2k rep should be between 9% and 11%. At greater differences, you can really speak of balance issues.

    Now of course, the strength of other classes influences these numbers, nonetheless, knowing how to use representation numbers gives a really good idea of how balance is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaderas View Post
    What did you get last season?

    Also, keeping an eye on this: http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-0-0.html

    We'll see what Rogues look like as the next few weeks progress, but their representation is definitely higher. Hard to say anything yet as we're only a week or two into the season.
    Rogues are doing well if you take a closer look, it's just assassination and combat being trash that keeps the rogue rep so low.

  18. #258
    In 5.3 they're lowering the cooldown on vanish to 30 seconds.

  19. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niberion View Post
    If that was the case, the global representation would go up, not the representation above 2.2k

    Since I don't think you fully understand how it all works, I'll explain it.

    The global representation shows what percentage of the total player base are playing a certain class, regardless of rating. A 10% global warrior representation would mean, that of all arena players, regardless of rating, 10% are warriors.
    The representation above 2.2k shows what percentage of the total player base above 2.2k are playing a certain class. A 20% representation above 2.2k for warriors would mean, that of all players above 2.2k, 20% are warriors.

    What shows the class balance is the difference between 2.2k rep and global rep. In a perfectly balanced world, the global and 2.2k rep should be equal, however, a 10% difference between those numbers is acceptable. In case of my warrior example, if the global rep is 10%, the 2.2k rep should be between 9% and 11%. At greater differences, you can really speak of balance issues.

    Now of course, the strength of other classes influences these numbers, nonetheless, knowing how to use representation numbers gives a really good idea of how balance is.



    Rogues are doing well if you take a closer look, it's just assassination and combat being trash that keeps the rogue rep so low.
    That makes a lot more sense regarding distribution... and at first glance of our early season it does make it look like subtlety Rogues are overtuned.

    Honestly though, the changes were mostly quality of life/control... if rogues are overpowered this season then it's because Blizzard are retards about balancing their damage formulas. I.e. our "scaling" which has normally caused us to be bad early in an expansion but very good at end. Why can't blizzard figure this out? Make it so that the scale is more even so we're not super weak early in, nor super powerful late expansion.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaderas View Post
    Honestly though, the changes were mostly quality of life/control... if rogues are overpowered this season then it's because Blizzard are retards about balancing their damage formulas. I.e. our "scaling" which has normally caused us to be bad early in an expansion but very good at end. Why can't blizzard figure this out? Make it so that the scale is more even so we're not super weak early in, nor super powerful late expansion.
    I'd say it's better to fix scaling patch per patch, trying to keep all classes about equally balanced. However, blizzard has proven multiple times, and now as well, that they have little clue of what needs fixing and what doesn't.
    Too often I find myself asking: Why are you changing that?, whenever I see ptr/patch notes. And I know several of those changes are just for PvE, but nonetheless, they fuck up PvP. And it's not just for rogues, it's for most classes.

    That being said, i'm not sure if I've mentioned it already, but I think rogues need to be toned down by a little. Especially ST needs a nerf, it simply does way to much damage for being a ranged filled spell.

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