1. #1

    How to add a support role without making the new class (mandatory)

    I think a great many people in the community would really like to see not just a new class but a new role to play for WoW.

    What am I talking about... well if you read the title, I'm talking about a support role/class.

    I think the idea that gets tossed around the most when someone mentions support is a bard and I think blizzard could absolutely put a big fat BLIZZARD stamp on it and make it their own by (as many have suggested) giving it more of a Metal feel to it taking cues from their creation Level 90 ETC! or whatever.

    The problem is, with the current model, how do you add a class of this nature without making it mandatory for raid play given that the new "class" would be the only one able to fill that support role, and given that Blizzard is trying so very hard to "bring the player not the class"

    I'm not a huge fan of that design model, (but thats their choice and if we fans want to continue to geek out and share our ideas with each other, we need to accept those terms).

    I think that by adding a 4th class specialization a support role could be added to a lot of existing classes, and allow for the creation of a class who's (inspiration) was/is support.

    Druids get the shaft... cuz they already have 4.
    Warlocks could get their tank spec.
    Some other PURE dps classes could get some more unique playstyles, Mages = mana batteries, Rogues = arms masters buffs to melee.

    Also I think that it could add some complexity as well as flexibility to (completely my opinion here) what is kind of a stale raid composition, and perhaps even (gasp) revitalize 25 mans.

    Flexibility. (This isn't a wow is dying thread so please don't focus on this next part) My guild on ysondre completely died come cataclysm, there have been several guilds that have tried to transfer to this low pop server (for realm firsts lol) who end up transferring somewhere else because there just aren't that many active people here to fill raid slots.

    We had a HEAVY melee guild after the majority quit and right now you need a good mix of melee, ranged, and magic dealers.

    Adding a support role could actually make heavy melee (or the adverse heavy caster) viable raid compositions.

    Lets say for the sake of argument that rogues/hunters each get a support role that focuses on buffing physical damage, while simultaneously helping to reduce or heal melee (for encounters that typically punish the raid for being to melee heavy)

    Or like I mentioned the opposite, where you have too many casters, or even too many healers (those of who raid know that too many healers [particularly in a 10 man] can mean not enough dps to kill a boss) if the support role functioned well and was implemented well, a heavy caster/healer combo might be an acceptable raid composition.

    Now (i'm gonna go on a little tangent here) at some point a support role is going to need to damage, so he needs those abilities. But you would need to craft the spec/class in a way so that IF he decided to JUST do damage the raid or group suffers as a whole as a result. Yes his own personal HEALING/DPS could be (higher) but the reduction to raid dps/heals has suffered as a result. Why am I talking about this? Because the current model is quite selfish. Hop in to any LFR or PuG normal raid and you will see it. People don't give a flying hoot about the raid performance or their fellow tanks/dps/heals performance, they care about themselves. If you had individuals who's role was to insure that the GROUP does better it might help to create better players across the board and inspire better team play.

    Why is that important? In active raiding guilds this may not be an issue because they are already collaborating quite well. But for new players, this may be a helpful tool, or coax them to be more aware of their performance. Why, because someone is watching quite closely, how well healers are managing mana, either as a result of tanks taking excess damage, or their own over healing, or melee/caster dps falling off.

    This also allows blizzard to make fights a little more complex and heaven forbid a little more complicated. Because now you have a role who's sole purpose is to fill in the gaps, to help you make up for your mistakes. Is standing in the fire still bad? Absolutely, but how many times has your tank/main heals been caught with raid wide CC mechanic and a simultaneous albeit unlucky nuke either afterwards or during. Perhaps a support role could help minimize the impact of such an event.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 05:05 PM ----------

    TL;DR Sorry I don't really have one. Ummm... a support could be a feasible option

  2. #2
    It could work preCata (TBC had support roles, like same shadow priests), but it won't work with new direction of game. We will rather see everything deduced to one role (dps) than adding one more role, especially if to take into consideration that tanks and healers were given a huge middle finger this x-pack.

    Once we heard "bring the player, not the class" (after that mess which was SWP and buff+class+profession stacking, before SWP you were free in bringing whomever you want) - that's when horrible things started to happen. Strict enrage timers on everything, making you to bring whomever, but not "the player", homogenization of classes, etc. Same enrage timers should be increased by, at very least, 100% (to avoid early soloabiltiy), so support roles could even work.
    Last edited by Ferocity; 2013-03-19 at 12:30 AM.

  3. #3
    It's impossible...they would have to take away all utility that they copied from hybrids over the years.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarac View Post
    It's impossible...they would have to take away all utility that they copied from hybrids over the years.
    I'd even say that they removed a lot of utility rather than copied. Replenishment is gone, a lot of unique buffs merged, many things were nerfed to oblivion (roflmao feral druid's innervate which could as well not exist), etc. Game is heading in direction, completely opposite to adding support roles.

  5. #5
    Eh, frankly I think the trinity system is on shaky ground as it is. Not much appetite to make it a quaternary system. And I tend to think that yeah, they'd either be mandatory or useless and nothing in between.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    Once we heard "bring the player, not the class" (after that mess which was SWP and buff+class+profession stacking, before SWP you were free in bringing whomever you want) - that's when horrible things started to happen. Strict enrage timers on everything,
    Strict enrage timers have nothing to do with bring the player not the class.
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  6. #6
    When I think of support roles, I think of characters that can perform more than one function in a raid. Much like a priest can either be heals or dps. A monk can be all 3 roles, much like a druid or monk. DK's and Warriors can perform dps or tank. Shaman can be dps or heals. That is what support is.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Strict enrage timers have nothing to do with bring the player not the class.
    This. They are there to stop groups from stacking healers and "better-late-than-never"ing their way to victory.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Strict enrage timers have nothing to do with bring the player not the class.
    They do. You either do class-stacking to stop wiping at berserk, or you are free to wipe all time with "the player not the class".

    Tell me how much there were less or more strict enrage timers before SWP? I can count only Patchwerk and Gruul. Now even t14 dogs on normal will go berserk if non-overgearing group will lose even 1 dps. Completely no room for support. Same Garalon pre-nerf is everything but not "bring the player not the class" - it was about benching your tanks and going 2 tanking rogues: how is it even close to "bring the player not the class?". Also it's one of the reasons why current raids can't even remotely be compared with same Karazhan, where you could roll your way with players if they knew what they are doing.
    This. They are there to stop groups from stacking healers and "better-late-than-never"ing their way to victory.
    And why not? It is called bring the player, even if we already have enough healers, no need to exaggerate. Is "bring 2 healers on this fight, 4 healers on that fight", the way how it works now, really better?

  9. #9
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Eh, frankly I think the trinity system is on shaky ground as it is. Not much appetite to make it a quaternary system. And I tend to think that yeah, they'd either be mandatory or useless and nothing in between.
    I agree a lot with what you said about the trinity system. Scenarios were the first break in the dam and as they figure out how to write encounters that don't require the trinity the concept is likely to spread especially if we begin to see scenarios designed for 5+ characters.

    More on-topic:
    how do you add a class of this nature without making it mandatory for raid play given that the new "class" would be the only one able to fill that support role
    You can't. It's a profound contradiction in the game culture that's come together in WoW. If someone can do something useful that no one else can do, they are likely to be 'mandatory' for any situation in which they'll be relevant.
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  10. #10
    Herald of the Titans icausewipes's Avatar
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    I'm getting FFXI flash backs and I don't think it will work. If a Bard can add (thru songs, text, email, w/e) that xtra 5% then it will open the door for ppl to hold a group hostage. I saw this in FFXI and it was sickening....
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  11. #11
    Herald of the Titans Suffer the Consequences's Avatar
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    Support classes are a bad idea, they always have been. I'm glad that design philosophy has mostly died off, and I hope it never has a resurgence.
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  12. #12
    Bloodsail Admiral DonQShot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbo Baggins View Post
    I think a great many people in the community would really like to see not just a new class but a new role to play for WoW.

    What am I talking about... well if you read the title, I'm talking about a support role/class.

    I think the idea that gets tossed around the most when someone mentions support is a bard and I think blizzard could absolutely put a big fat BLIZZARD stamp on it and make it their own by (as many have suggested) giving it more of a Metal feel to it taking cues from their creation Level 90 ETC! or whatever.

    The problem is, with the current model, how do you add a class of this nature without making it mandatory for raid play given that the new "class" would be the only one able to fill that support role, and given that Blizzard is trying so very hard to "bring the player not the class"

    I'm not a huge fan of that design model, (but thats their choice and if we fans want to continue to geek out and share our ideas with each other, we need to accept those terms).

    I think that by adding a 4th class specialization a support role could be added to a lot of existing classes, and allow for the creation of a class who's (inspiration) was/is support.

    Druids get the shaft... cuz they already have 4.
    Warlocks could get their tank spec.
    Some other PURE dps classes could get some more unique playstyles, Mages = mana batteries, Rogues = arms masters buffs to melee.

    Also I think that it could add some complexity as well as flexibility to (completely my opinion here) what is kind of a stale raid composition, and perhaps even (gasp) revitalize 25 mans.

    Flexibility. (This isn't a wow is dying thread so please don't focus on this next part) My guild on ysondre completely died come cataclysm, there have been several guilds that have tried to transfer to this low pop server (for realm firsts lol) who end up transferring somewhere else because there just aren't that many active people here to fill raid slots.

    We had a HEAVY melee guild after the majority quit and right now you need a good mix of melee, ranged, and magic dealers.

    Adding a support role could actually make heavy melee (or the adverse heavy caster) viable raid compositions.

    Lets say for the sake of argument that rogues/hunters each get a support role that focuses on buffing physical damage, while simultaneously helping to reduce or heal melee (for encounters that typically punish the raid for being to melee heavy)

    Or like I mentioned the opposite, where you have too many casters, or even too many healers (those of who raid know that too many healers [particularly in a 10 man] can mean not enough dps to kill a boss) if the support role functioned well and was implemented well, a heavy caster/healer combo might be an acceptable raid composition.

    Now (i'm gonna go on a little tangent here) at some point a support role is going to need to damage, so he needs those abilities. But you would need to craft the spec/class in a way so that IF he decided to JUST do damage the raid or group suffers as a whole as a result. Yes his own personal HEALING/DPS could be (higher) but the reduction to raid dps/heals has suffered as a result. Why am I talking about this? Because the current model is quite selfish. Hop in to any LFR or PuG normal raid and you will see it. People don't give a flying hoot about the raid performance or their fellow tanks/dps/heals performance, they care about themselves. If you had individuals who's role was to insure that the GROUP does better it might help to create better players across the board and inspire better team play.

    Why is that important? In active raiding guilds this may not be an issue because they are already collaborating quite well. But for new players, this may be a helpful tool, or coax them to be more aware of their performance. Why, because someone is watching quite closely, how well healers are managing mana, either as a result of tanks taking excess damage, or their own over healing, or melee/caster dps falling off.

    This also allows blizzard to make fights a little more complex and heaven forbid a little more complicated. Because now you have a role who's sole purpose is to fill in the gaps, to help you make up for your mistakes. Is standing in the fire still bad? Absolutely, but how many times has your tank/main heals been caught with raid wide CC mechanic and a simultaneous albeit unlucky nuke either afterwards or during. Perhaps a support role could help minimize the impact of such an event.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 05:05 PM ----------

    TL;DR Sorry I don't really have one. Ummm... a support could be a feasible option
    Haha I find this thread as a recharge of strength for a support role =). I really enjoy the read and I can agree with pretty much everything. a support role could be implemented, in my pov, in 3 ways. by creating classes and specs that could perform those roles by simply giving them skills that woul improve other specific layout of classes(think rogues,warriors & priests, mages). In this first case, it would result in them being useful in raids or heroic dungeons because they would improve the performance of these classes significantly so that they would earn a spot on the group but not so much that they can simply overthrow any other class that could bring a much more concentration of dps/heal/tank.

    the second way would be the one u just described, which is base support roles on filling gaps of poor performance by the teammates, making up for their mistakes in battle by, l don't know, let's say cc a mob who has gained too much threat on a dps who just couldn't remenber to drop threat when it needed and is now in trouble. this would be more of a backstage, coordinating and directing of battles so that everything may move along just fine.

    My third option would be the combination of the previous two

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by SourceOfInfection View Post
    Support classes are a bad idea, they always have been. I'm glad that design philosophy has mostly died off, and I hope it never has a resurgence.
    I'd have to agree. I think they tried, and scrapped the idea. The game and fight mechanics are certainly moving away from anything the traditional support role would have offered. Were it not for all the new classes and talent trees, they MIGHT have had a chance. Last thing we need is someone coming up with a "Hero-class" idea and trying to play it from the "Support Role" angle.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eschaton View Post
    I agree a lot with what you said about the trinity system. Scenarios were the first break in the dam and as they figure out how to write encounters that don't require the trinity the concept is likely to spread especially if we begin to see scenarios designed for 5+ characters.

    OTOH, GW2 has experiemented with the system and those fights often feel like they are a mess.

    While it may be an interesting change of pace to have a fight design where the Trinity isn't so important, perhaps an optional fight akin to Ra-Den/Algalon, I don't think we'll see much of that sort of encounter in WoW. if the Trinity were to be adjusted, I think Blizzard would work form the other end - simply make it easier for classes to switch between roles and so make players specialising into different roles less critical for success.

    As for support classes....I don't see much of a role for them in game. As much as some players want them, Blizzards moved towards equal DPS for good reasons. A support class would need to follow the same route for those reasons.....and so would end up with normal DPS and excellent utility and thus be a required class.

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    Last edited by Talen; 2013-03-21 at 11:07 PM.

  15. #15
    Bloodsail Admiral DonQShot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    OTOH, GW2 has experiemented with the system and those fights often feel like they are a mess.

    While it may be an interesting change of pace to have a fight design where the Trinity isn't so important, perhaps an optional fight akin to Ra-Den/Algalon, I don't think we'll see much of that sort of encounter in WoW. if the Trinity were to be adjusted, I think Blizzard would work form the other end - simply make it easier for classes to switch between roles and so make players specialising into different roles less critical for success.

    As for support classes....I don't see much of a role for them in game. As much as some players want them, Blizzards moved towards equal DPS for good reasons. A support class would need to follow the same route for those reasons.....and so would end up with normal DPS and excellent utility and thus be a required class.

    EJL
    I see a support class as a a class that is at the same time not mandatory and yet very useful because (and I will try to put this as simple as I can) it would work as a dps that instead of just bringing on dps would have utility and support abilities. this way, a party with this class would trade higher dps for a bit more of utility and support on other situations which are infinite. this would result, ultimately, in a loss of dps that would ofc speed up killing of bosses and mobs in a more direct way, but a support spec woul be capable of also do average dps but with the ability to save the party of undesirable situations regarding mob ganks or total wipeouts or if played right, could even match the dps missing from a pure dps by successfully improving its allies efficiency.

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