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  1. #81
    I can understand why they'd choose not to add 5 mans, as it does clash with their current game design philosophy. However, I feel that the current game design philosophy is wrong, and this is just another slap in the face to those who enjoyed the game before MoP.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by rumaya2000 View Post
    This shift just has to be accepted. New five mans just do not server any sort of purpose, and if you want new challenge modes they've already hinted that they'd prefer to retool older content. Five mans are there to gear up before LFR, for quick valor runs and for challenge modes. That is their purpose, not catch up.
    They serve the purpose of giving you more variety when levelling a new character while doing dungeons (you only get 4 different't 1s while you level...) and they give more variety when capping valor which makes it less boring.

  3. #83
    Like can you imagine if they said were not supporting dailies anymore. And then people on this forum or on the official forums came and said good daily quests are a waste of resources. The daily quest crowd would be LIVID.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Having nothing to do is a function of not enough patches. Not gating progression. Nobody asked to go slower and asked the developers to gate progression, especially to this degree. What was asked was that the developers release more content to keep pace. Instead they took nothing to do as a call for grind grind grind grind. Which is wrong and as long as they continue to embrace this will cost them subs.

    It's exactly that easy. In fact without even doing that they've managed to increase the rate at which patches are released in this expansion already. If they were so committed to more patches then this gating wouldn't be necessary.

    As for the catch up system that's all in the name of gating players and turning it into a grind. They hide behind the desire from some members of the community to feel validated for their efforts but the reality is that this entire thing is a giant attempt to get you to sub for longer and go slower because they refuse to invest more money in the game.

    Keep Bleeding subs Blizzard. IN the end you'll get to this realization to.
    The thing about them releasing patches faster isn't that they got better at making content faster, they simply switched from making a couple of really large patches to making more but smaller ones. Same amount of content, divided into more parts.

    People asked for more content, and in a sense that is exactly what Blizzard has given us, both scenarios and daily quests are examples of that. The fact that you just wanted more dungeons to farm, is a completely different matter, and not everyone wants these dungeons either.

    MMO's and RPG's in general have pretty much always been about grinding, not sure how you're surprised by that fact?

    I don't really think they are hiding behind anything, since they have access to all the data and feedback, whereas we do not. If they received 10x feedback that dungeons were great and scenarios/daily quests sucked, and only 1x feedback that favored scenarios/daily quests, don't you think they would listen to the 10x?

    Cataclysm had the system you praised so much, yet they have never lost as many subs as they did during that expansion. Reverting to it would only cause them to lose even more.

  5. #85
    The Patient Arthrun's Avatar
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    What if you didn't get better loot in the new HCs. Would you still push that, or would you like them to focus on developing something else?

    Fuck HCs. It's not like they serve a point in the MoP mindset. They're there to level up and gear up slightly in.

    I say. Rather focus on something else.. Like scenarious or professions.
    Happiness!

    {◕ ◡ ◕}

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Having nothing to do is a function of not enough patches. Not gating progression. Nobody asked to go slower and asked the developers to gate progression, especially to this degree. What was asked was that the developers release more content to keep pace. Instead they took nothing to do as a call for grind grind grind grind. Which is wrong and as long as they continue to embrace this will cost them subs.

    It's exactly that easy. In fact without even doing that they've managed to increase the rate at which patches are released in this expansion already. If they were so committed to more patches then this gating wouldn't be necessary.

    As for the catch up system that's all in the name of gating players and turning it into a grind. They hide behind the desire from some members of the community to feel validated for their efforts but the reality is that this entire thing is a giant attempt to get you to sub for longer and go slower because they refuse to invest more money in the game.

    Keep Bleeding subs Blizzard. IN the end you'll get to this realization to.
    Call the press!!!! Developer of subscription based MMO seeks ways to maintain subscription levels with the most efficient economic model. Subscriber asks developer for welfare epics in the mail.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    The thing about them releasing patches faster isn't that they got better at making content faster, they simply switched from making a couple of really large patches to making more but smaller ones. Same amount of content, divided into more parts.

    People asked for more content, and in a sense that is exactly what Blizzard has given us, both scenarios and daily quests are examples of that. The fact that you just wanted more dungeons to farm, is a completely different matter, and not everyone wants these dungeons either.

    MMO's and RPG's in general have pretty much always been about grinding, not sure how you're surprised by that fact?

    I don't really think they are hiding behind anything, since they have access to all the data and feedback, whereas we do not. If they received 10x feedback that dungeons were great and scenarios/daily quests sucked, and only 1x feedback that favored scenarios/daily quests, don't you think they would listen to the 10x?

    Cataclysm had the system you praised so much, yet they have never lost as many subs as they did during that expansion. Reverting to it would only cause them to lose even more.
    LOL saying they've given us more content is newspeak. They didn't give us more content. They gave us more GRIND. They were committed to releasing patches faster then they either need to do that or come out and be honest about it. people wanted more content of the content they liked. NOT FUCKING DAILY QUESTS. People had daily quests in cataclysm to and yet it wasn't a cure for fucking boredom then AND NOBODY WAS ASKING THEM FOR MORE DAILY QUESTS. The claim they were asking for more content is very specific. THEY WERE ASKING FOR MORE PROGRESSION CONTENT THAT THEY LIKED. I.E RAIDS AND DUGNEONS. Not more dailies. Like dailies were by and large ignored by the community in the past. SO SOMEHOW the players who were bored, were now asking the developers to provide them with more content that they never did before anyway. WTF KIND OF LOGIC IS THAT? The more content that they wanted WAS MORE PROGRESSION. More fucking loot wheel.

    I don't care about the label MMO and RPG, those are meaningless. My favourite rpgs were story driven and featured virtually no grind. To says rpgs are about grind is pretty ignorant. Furthermore I don't care about the label MMO, it's fucking meaningless as far as I"m concerned. If people want instanced content that rewards their time then give them that regardless of the label MMO.

    They have access to all the data and feedback but their analysis is incorrect. Cataclysm lost subs because it took them 9 months to release patches. The claim were bored doesn't mean more grind was what was being asked, what was asked was that the developers not take a 9 month hiatus. Something even the developers fully acknowledge and are ostensible committed to getting around. Mists is still loosing subs and this new grind hasn't stemmed the tide of sub loss. The "more" content that they gave us is really a fucking joke and will not serve to keep players. Reverting to cataclysm with an increased patch frequency will stem the tide of subs alot better than bringing more grind which has only served to frustrate and cause players to leave. In laymans terms this game has to much fucking stick and not enough fucking carrot. Dungeons had excellent carrots, that's why they're gone.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-09 at 01:41 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by madrox View Post
    Call the press!!!! Developer of subscription based MMO seeks ways to maintain subscription levels with the most efficient economic model. Subscriber asks developer for welfare epics in the mail.
    NEWSFLASH random dude on a forum defends Blizzards shitty decisions. More at 6.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-09 at 01:45 PM.

  8. #88
    Epic! Iceleaf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Because they can better control and slow progression. That's fucking horse shit. It means I'll be stuck with nothing but an LFR que once a week as a form of progression, or swallow their horseshit and run daily quest. The entire thing will just bottle at LFR. It's crap.
    It basically is that, maybe bit extreme way to say it - but it certainly was the goal.

    They want to give valor out of everything to reward people and make them feel like everything is cool and theres some reason to do them. No one would do scenarios, more than once, if it gave justice points. No one. Even "lore-nerds"(such as myself) would not bother, they've already seen them anyway. 5-mans the same. AND dailies*

    But oh no, now that everything gives valor that means valor rewards are "easy to acquire" and fast.. what shall we do now? We want to reward people doing 5mans, burgerflipping boring (5.0) dailies, scenarios, 5-mans, LFR and of course "rest of the raiding"...but not get thro content quickly as we like and gear up fast.

    Yeah, lets make valor gear rep gated. You will "feel rewarded" by getting valor from menial or fun tasks.. but you wont be able to use valor until you hit exalted/revered or get lucky at LFR drops.

    Its illusion of being rewarded but still getting F' all in the end.
    Last edited by Iceleaf; 2013-03-09 at 02:28 PM.
    "when women wear makeup they’re basically lying to us"
    Well, I don’t see why women are being blamed if man is stupid enough to really think they have red and gold eyelids.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceleaf View Post
    It basically is that, maybe bit extreme way to say it - but it certainly was the goal.

    They want to give valor out of everything to reward people and make them feel like everything is cool and theres some reason to do them. No one would do scenarios more than once, if it gave justice points. No one. Even "lore-nerds" wouldnt bother, theyve already seen them anyway. 5-mans the same. AND dailies.

    But oh no, now that everything gives valor that means valor rewards are "easy to acquire" and fast.. what shall we do now? We want to reward people doing 5mans, burgerflipping boring (5.0) dailies, scenarios, 5-mans, LFR and of course "rest of the raiding"...but not get thro content quickly as we like and gear up fast.

    Yeah, lets make valor gear rep gated. You will feel rewarded by getting valor but you wont be able to use valor until you hit exalted/revered or get lucky at LFR drops.
    It backfired. I don't feel rewarded by getting valor in the fuckign slightest. In fact their are very few activities in this game that feel rewarding at all. Nothing feels like it's worth doing save LFR and even if I do LFR alot of times I ask myself why bother? What's the potential I'm gonna get anything out of it?

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    They didn't give us more content. They gave us more GRIND.
    You don't really know what content is, do you?... Battle pets, daily quests and scenarios, are all counted as content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    They were committed to releasing patches faster then they either need to do that or come out and be honest about it. people wanted more content of the content they liked. NOT FUCKING DAILY QUESTS. People had daily quests in cataclysm to and yet it wasn't a cure for fucking boredom then AND NOBODY WAS ASKING THEM FOR MORE DAILY QUESTS. The claim they were asking for more content is very specific. THEY WERE ASKING FOR MORE PROGRESSION CONTENT THAT THEY LIKED. I.E RAIDS AND DUGNEONS. Not more dailies. Like dailies were by and large ignored by the community in the past. SO SOMEHOW the players who were bored, were now asking the developers to provide them with more content that they never did before anyway. WTF KIND OF LOGIC IS THAT? The more content that they wanted WAS MORE PROGRESSION. More fucking loot wheel.
    You seem to like ignoring the fact that there are a lot of people who actually like daily quests, just because you don't, doesn't mean that there aren't those who do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    I don't care about the label MMO and RPG, those are meaningless. My favourite rpgs were story driven and featured virtually no grind. To says rpgs are about grind is pretty ignorant. Furthermore I don't care about the label MMO, it's fucking meaningless as far as I"m concerned. If people want instanced content that rewards their time then give them that regardless of the label MMO.
    Taking away the grind of World of Warcraft would mean taking away all gear and normalizing all characters, all sense of progression involve grind, even running dungeons is technically a grind. Raiding is a grind. Grinding isn't necessarily bad, there can be too much of it, but there can also be not enough of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    They have access to all the data and feedback but their analysis is incorrect. Cataclysm lost subs because it took them 9 months to release patches. The claim were bored doesn't mean they grind was what was asked, what was asked was that the developers not take a 9 month hiatus. Something even the developers fully acknowledge and are ostensible commited to getting around. Mists is still loosing subs and this new grind hasn't stemmed the tide of sub loss. The "more" content that they gave us is really a fucking joke and will not serve to keep players. Reverting to cataclysm with an increased patch frequency will stem the tide of subs.
    Yes, they admitted that it took them too much time to deliver their content in Cataclysm, the primary reason I believe to switching from a a couple of large patches to several smaller ones. But as I said before, they can only develop X amount of content at Y time, no amounts of "work faster and harder, stop being so lazy!" is going to make it go faster.

    As quality also gets better it takes more time to develop even simpler of things. Hiring new people is the only real way of "solving" it, but even that takes time, is difficult to find the right kind of people who are qualified, and for as long as they are dropping subs really god damn risky as they might have to fire them shortly.

    Keep in mind that they are actively recruiting people, even as we speak, clearly there aren't enough people with enough experience who can begin working for them to deliver the content at a faster pace.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post

    NEWSFLASH random dude on a forum defends Blizzards shitty decisions. More at 6.
    I'm not so much defending Blizzard's decisions, I'm really at a loss as to what your problems are. Sure, when MoP was released everything seemed as if it were behind gates and there seemed to a thousand dailys to do, but then time passed and things changed. You don't need to do one single daily to get yourself any of the 5.2 VP gear yet you still harp on about dailys. And, like myself, you have stated that LFR is as highest content you will be running, so why are complaining that you can't zoom through it; what is your rush in consuming LFR when that is your endgame. Even before LFR we had a VP cap, so I'm at a loss as to what new dungeons could bring to the game.

  12. #92
    idk why they don't bring back troll heroics, those were fun

    guess that'd be work though, don't wanna do that

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by peachtree View Post
    idk why they don't bring back troll heroics, those were fun

    guess that'd be work though, don't wanna do that
    You mean those troll heroics that everyone condemned as rehashed content and were basically the only two HCs worth doing from 41 to 4.3? Yeah, that was the crowning moment of WoW content.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by madrox View Post
    You mean those troll heroics that everyone condemned as rehashed content and were basically the only two HCs worth doing from 41 to 4.3? Yeah, that was the crowning moment of WoW content.
    would u of preferred them releasing nothing from 4.2 to 4.3?
    y'know like they did with 5.1 to 5.2? lmao

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaozu View Post
    You don't really know what content is, do you?... Battle pets, daily quests and scenarios, are all counted as content.



    You seem to like ignoring the fact that there are a lot of people who actually like daily quests, just because you don't, doesn't mean that there aren't those who do.



    Taking away the grind of World of Warcraft would mean taking away all gear and normalizing all characters, all sense of progression involve grind, even running dungeons is technically a grind. Raiding is a grind. Grinding isn't necessarily bad, there can be too much of it, but there can also be not enough of it.



    Yes, the admitted that it took them too much time to deliver their content in Cataclysm, the primary reason I beleive to switching from a a couple of large patches to several smaller ones. But as I said before, they can only develop X amount of content at Y time, no amounts of "work fast and harder, stop being so lazy!" is going to make it go faster.

    As quality also gets better it takes more time to develop even simpler of things. Hiring new people is the only real way of "solving" it, but even that takes time, is difficult to find the right kind of people who are qualified, and for as long as they are dropping subs really god damn risky as they might have to fire them shortly.

    Keep in mind that they are actively recruiting people, even as we speak, clearly there aren't enough people with enough experience who can begin working for them to deliver the content at a faster pace.
    I know exactly what content is but that isn't the content that was being asked for. I'm all for that shit being in game but saying it's "more" is disingenous. It's more but it's not more of what was wanted.

    I'm not ignoring the fact that their are people that like daily quest. Go forth. YOu have my blessing. What I am telling you is that the you've had them for years and they were never a means of curing boredom. I'm not sure how players are asking for more content that they never did in the first place. ON the face of it that's just stupid.When they were asking for more content, it was more of the things they wanted to do and certainly alternatives. Alternatives are great but now the content people did want is getting the shaft so you can get your alternatives.

    Did I say take away all the grind? I don't recall saying specifically that. What I mean to say is that they've put up to much grind and the abandoned (more or less) the tools in place that were GOOD at circumventing that. Grinding is bad, it's terrible really but to an extent you need it. Like I was okay grinding out dungeons for gear in cataclysm and in wrath to. Or grinding out rep in ICC. I'm not okay with grinding dailies. Or the amount of grind in mists. It's so bad that NOTHING FEELS REWARDING anymore. Everything is just a slog to get through.

    Yes it took them months to deliver content and instead of making good on their promise to release more they just divided it up. So I'm not sure what argument your trying to make here? The devs haven't fufilled their promise to provide us with more. They've just parcelled it out into smaller packages. They absolutely could make more content if they cared and invested. I'm not saking them to work harder, I'm asking them to invest more b ack in the game. yes yes I know Blizzard can't do a damn thing fucking better, their just perfect or their just totally incompotent and this is the best we can expect. I happen to believe they can do much better if they invest more into the game.

    They've been actively recruiting people for god knows how long and it hasn't made a difference. That's just PR speak they give you to placate you. The reality is if they wanted to give us more actual content, the content that people were asking for and not dailies, we'd have it.

    This is a massive fucking slap in the face. I agree dungeons don't make sense in the frame of mists but that's because mists is crap. Well I guess I wait till next expansion when the developers abandoned everything here and change it up again. It doesn't have to be this way though. So much for fucking choice in this expansion. They aren't gonna support the choice you want to make, FORCING you to make another one.


    ---------- Post added 2013-03-09 at 01:59 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by madrox View Post
    I'm not so much defending Blizzard's decisions, I'm really at a loss as to what your problems are. Sure, when MoP was released everything seemed as if it were behind gates and there seemed to a thousand dailys to do, but then time passed and things changed. You don't need to do one single daily to get yourself any of the 5.2 VP gear yet you still harp on about dailys. And, like myself, you have stated that LFR is as highest content you will be running, so why are complaining that you can't zoom through it; what is your rush in consuming LFR when that is your endgame. Even before LFR we had a VP cap, so I'm at a loss as to what new dungeons could bring to the game.
    You want the list of my complaints? Just in this topic alone? I'm not complaining that I can't zoom through LFR. I'm complaining that I CAN'T GET ANY FUCKING REWARD OUT OF IT. Hell I can't even run it this week because it's just got to be gated. LIke everything else in this fucking game now. If it isn't gated then it's a massive grind.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-03-09 at 02:04 PM.

  16. #96
    new heroics are useless theyre good for one go and then you're stuck for the same 1 to 3 dungeons for the rest of the year which is somewhat fine if you like the new dungeon they give but what if it turns out the new dungeon is shado pan monastery 2.0 and you do that every week for the rest of the year? it also makes the previous tier completely useless.

    new dungeons dont need to come for any reason, lfr works fine for catch ups, dailies and scenarios work fine for story albeit the later still needs a bit more polishing.

    hell if i could get all my valor from daily quests id take dungeons right out of my todo list everyday, i dislike them i always have and god forbid you sit and listen to the npc talk to hear the story and get kicked because "LOL NOOB NO WON LIEKS STORY KILL FASTA" atleast in lfr when theres an important story the npc talks over the fight or says it before you can start it allowing you to see it all whether other people want to or not

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-09 at 09:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by peachtree View Post
    would u of preferred them releasing nothing from 4.2 to 4.3?
    y'know like they did with 5.1 to 5.2? lmao
    they released new scenarios, a new daily hub, a new pet battle questline, item upgrades, and added onto the legendary chain. that doesnt seem like nothing to me just because its content you dont like doesnt mean it isnt content. 5.1 had ALOT more content then 4.1 had
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  17. #97
    Dreadlord Cinnamohn's Avatar
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    They really should've started with more than 9 heroics then. 4 of those you literally run to death between 85 and 90, 3 are ran multiple times during low levels, and the other 2 lost their shininess soon after you hit 90. I wish they'd stuck with the Wrath/Cata model, as I ran most of those dungeons well over 20 times on each of my 6+ characters, and would've continued to do so because they weren't nearly as dull as what we have now (minus the 4.3 ones, those can forever rot in CoT).

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post

    You want the list of my complaints? Just in this topic alone? I'm not complaining that I can't zoom through LFR. I'm complaining that I CAN'T GET ANY FUCKING REWARD OUT OF IT. Hell I can't even run it this week because it's just got to be gated. LIke everything else in this fucking game now. If it isn't gated then it's a massive grind.
    LFR is gated, yes. The content and rewards are not. If you are in so much of a rush to get a ToT epic then go join a normal run.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by madrox View Post
    LFR is gated, yes. The content and rewards are not. If you are in so much of a rush to get a ToT epic then go join a normal run.
    not to mention theres a valor necklace you can buy for 1250 valor at neutral that has a 522 ilvl. want a reward just go up to the vendor and buy it
    "I was a normal baby for 30 seconds, then ninjas stole my mamma" - Deadpool
    "so what do we do?" "well jack, you stand there and say 'gee rocket raccoon I'm so glad you brought that Unfeasibly large cannon with you..' and i go like this BRAKKA BRAKKA BRAKKA" - Rocket Raccoon

    FC: 3437-3046-3552

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by madrox View Post
    LFR is gated, yes. The content and rewards are not. If you are in so much of a rush to get a ToT epic then go join a normal run.
    Actually even the normal runs are gated in that sense. It's still RNG, and RNG is potentially a massive gate.

    The answer is always what I have to do, not that Blizzards designs are bad or hurt players or are inflexible. Well I don't accept that. They can do better. I can't run normals. Can't commit to a particular raid schedule and the ones I could apply to all reject me for lack of daily gear. OH SHIT. Look at that.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-09 at 02:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    not to mention theres a valor necklace you can buy for 1250 valor at neutral that has a 522 ilvl. want a reward just go up to the vendor and buy it
    I was shocked when I saw that necklace. It's one reward though and it isn't enough to be honest. Considering how fucking long it's gonna take me to get any rep with these guys, yea it's not enough. Also considering how long it takes me to cap valor. Nothing in this game is rewarding enough.

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