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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by woopytywoop View Post
    He's a moderator, which means he moderates and sometimes posts his own opinion. He's not a super human being, just a player like many of us, but who moderates (as a volunteer) and gets shit upon all the time when ppl not agree with him. That he's tutoring or belittling has probably to do with his RL job as you can't use the same sarcasm GC uses. However you still need to give him some credit, he puts quite some effort in the moderating without any reward.

    Do you need a resto shaman union spokesman?
    I was drunk no idea why i wrote that sorry.

  2. #22
    My question is if you could 2 heal fights in 10 man with two healers, and replaced one with a shaman, would that hold the group back? Assuming one wasn't already a shaman obviously. I see a lot of resto shaman so I don't think the spec can be that gimp.
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  3. #23
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varabently View Post
    My question is if you could 2 heal fights in 10 man with two healers, and replaced one with a shaman, would that hold the group back? Assuming one wasn't already a shaman obviously. I see a lot of resto shaman so I don't think the spec can be that gimp.
    Playing pala/disc definitely makes a fight easier, way way easier. Combinations with resto druid are also very good due to mobility. Shaman brings great raid CDs, so great that those CDs are responsible for a ridiculous percentage of our healing. But outside those CDs, we're kinda lacking.

    Sometimes I wonder if Blizzard looks at healer performance minus their CDs and finds them okay, and the guy who is responsible for shaman numbers didn't get the memo and included our CDs in our theoretical output...

  4. #24
    just got kicked out a run because my heals where behind by like 10 %

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    According to raidbots.com, we are 25%-30% behind top healer on every fight in 25man, while being the healer with lowest output (except Jinrokh).

    We are 30%-35% behind the top healer on every fight in 10man, while being the healer with the lowest output (even on Jinrokh, the stack fight where Resto Shaman's should be dominating).
    Which means absolutely nothing. We've only seen normals so far, and the healing requirements on everything except megaera are a complete joke both in 10 and 25. Heck, i solo healed 2 of the bosses this week. It is just the nature of our class to be lower.on metres during trivial content, and that is yet to impact our actual performance in progress.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Blindlad View Post
    Heck, i solo healed 2 of the bosses this week.
    Which bosses did you solo heal in Throne of Thunder? Do you have a World of Logs parse I could look at? If so, I would really like to study it and see if I can convince my raid leader to give me a shot with my resto shaman.

    I'm not as geared as your resto shaman, but I wanted to see the spell selection, cooldown usage and damage taken by your raid to see what it would take.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Blindlad View Post
    Which means absolutely nothing. We've only seen normals so far, and the healing requirements on everything except megaera are a complete joke both in 10 and 25. Heck, i solo healed 2 of the bosses this week. It is just the nature of our class to be lower.on metres during trivial content, and that is yet to impact our actual performance in progress.
    I haven't seen 10 man, but I think you are exaggerating the lack of healing requirements on 25 man. The amount of raid damage going out felt on par with if not somewhat higher than it was in T14 heroics (excluding Elite Heroic Protectors and Shek'zeer).

    I also don't think that the weakness of Shaman throughput in early aggregate logs has very much to do with lack of healing and Mastery not giving much benefit; the issue is almost entirely fight mechanics being extremely unfavorable to the tools that we have to deal with AoE damage. Almost the entirety of the instance is dominated by spread mechanics (and so many of the spread mechanics in ToT are /range 8 or 12 not /range 5 like most raid fights in the past) and heavy movement. Shaman are very heavily reliant on Healing Rain for upwards of 40% of our output, and our output is flat out not competitive if fight mechanics prevent us from getting the most out of HT.

    This isn't a "lol normal modes" issue or a "it will get better on harder content" issue; it's an issue with fight mechanics this tier and Shaman's lack of toolkit to deal with them in a competitive manner. That isn't going to get better on Heroic modes, and may even get worse if Heroic Modes require more spreading and more mobility. It's going to be a repeat of Firelands for Resto Shaman, and our viability is going to be very much in question with other healers getting high enough gear levels that MTT is more of a luxury than a necessity to the point that carrying a gimp healer won't be worth the raid utility we bring.

  8. #28
    Stood in the Fire TheFNK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    I haven't seen 10 man, but I think you are exaggerating the lack of healing requirements on 25 man. The amount of raid damage going out felt on par with if not somewhat higher than it was in T14 heroics (excluding Elite Heroic Protectors and Shek'zeer).

    I also don't think that the weakness of Shaman throughput in early aggregate logs has very much to do with lack of healing and Mastery not giving much benefit; the issue is almost entirely fight mechanics being extremely unfavorable to the tools that we have to deal with AoE damage. Almost the entirety of the instance is dominated by spread mechanics (and so many of the spread mechanics in ToT are /range 8 or 12 not /range 5 like most raid fights in the past) and heavy movement. Shaman are very heavily reliant on Healing Rain for upwards of 40% of our output, and our output is flat out not competitive if fight mechanics prevent us from getting the most out of HT.

    This isn't a "lol normal modes" issue or a "it will get better on harder content" issue; it's an issue with fight mechanics this tier and Shaman's lack of toolkit to deal with them in a competitive manner. That isn't going to get better on Heroic modes, and may even get worse if Heroic Modes require more spreading and more mobility. It's going to be a repeat of Firelands for Resto Shaman, and our viability is going to be very much in question with other healers getting high enough gear levels that MTT is more of a luxury than a necessity to the point that carrying a gimp healer won't be worth the raid utility we bring.
    Well the scary thing is that while I don't think lack of healing and weak mastery are the most pressing issue for Resto Shaman they are still a frightening reality. Look at a fight like 10N Megaera. This is one of the few normal mode fights with appreciable damage. Add to this the fact that it is a fight where there is consistent stacking and phases of intense healing that lend themselves well to a healer balanced around their cooldowns (like we are in some respects). This fight in T15 is the apex of Shaman power. The fight where we should be expected to hold our own and perhaps surpass the other middle of the pack healers.

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Megaera/1...00000000111111

    And there we are. A fight that shaman are made for and we can't even show up well on it. Hey maybe you are saying "But that is for the top 100. Clearly we can;t be expected to stand up to the best of the best. You are skewing data to prove a point". And to you i'd like to present the all parses version.

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Megaera/1...00000000111111

    I've been a shaman since early TBC. I heal in a 10M with my friends. I've healed top 100 and have regularly ranked. I have a raid spot right now that is not in danger because my group requires a lust and we have no mage. However some days I just want to sit myself because I know the group would be better off if i did.

    And that depresses me.

  9. #29
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    My shaman is just an alt that I run alt runs with and he seems to compete okay. One of my 3 main healers is a shaman and so is one of my two back ups and they seem to both do fine, specially as tank healers, plus Ascendance and Healing Tide are beasts in 10-man.

    These 2 tiers seem to have a bunch of heal intensive mechanics with a (roughly) 1 minute cooldown so I've usually been able to tackle tight enrage timers by dropping a healer, keep only our disc and the shammy and then have'em going SS > Healing Tide > SS > Ascendance > SS > Repeat for said mechanics.

    Yet, I do reckon Shamans do seem a tad weak without cooldowns and raid healing is very weak unless people are stacked up.


  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    the issue is almost entirely fight mechanics being extremely unfavorable to the tools that we have to deal with AoE damage. Almost the entirety of the instance is dominated by spread mechanics (and so many of the spread mechanics in ToT are /range 8 or 12 not /range 5 like most raid fights in the past) and heavy movement. Shaman are very heavily reliant on Healing Rain for upwards of 40% of our output, and our output is flat out not competitive if fight mechanics prevent us from getting the most out of HT.
    Which is a way better argument and one we can all relate to then just "look at raidbots, make an angry tweet at gc". That is a weakness that has to be constantly held in check, specially for 25's, however, I do not think that it currently cripples the class to the point that it isn't competitive or viable. Meters are not be all end all
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    Which bosses did you solo heal in Throne of Thunder? Do you have a World of Logs parse I could look at? If so, I would really like to study it and see if I can convince my raid leader to give me a shot with my resto shaman.

    I'm not as geared as your resto shaman, but I wanted to see the spell selection, cooldown usage and damage taken by your raid to see what it would take.
    Same here, Blindlad. Show us.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Blindlad View Post
    Which is a way better argument and one we can all relate to then just "look at raidbots, make an angry tweet at gc". That is a weakness that has to be constantly held in check, specially for 25's, however, I do not think that it currently cripples the class to the point that it isn't competitive or viable. Meters are not be all end all
    Alot of things have been said, and have been said for a long time. The discussion has been going on for sometime now. You just came late and started pointing at others as if they were talking crap.

    The class is crippled to the point were it's only bought for a few buffs, mainly MTT. Resto Shamans aren't competitive, even in stacked fights. Meters/raidbots are not all, but they give a very good indication of how a specc is doing. If you don't believe in them and if you think the specc is fine, it's all well and good, but stop coming in here telling others what they should believe and what they shouldn't.
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  13. #33
    Resto shaman is simply the worst healer by far (at least in 10 man). Nearly all the encounters this tier are completely HR-unfriendly. Even in some encounters that seemed to be ok for restoration shamans like Megaera, we are still weaker than other healers (not the holy priest of course). It's just pathetic the use CH has nowadays. As this tier is designed we are most ridiculous spec/class ever, that's the sad truth

    what about that nerf to mana cost in HR? its a really clever change now that we must be perfectly spread in 85% of the encounters

    do u expect any kind of buff ?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyand View Post
    Resto shaman is simply the worst healer by far (at least in 10 man). Nearly all the encounters this tier are completely HR-unfriendly. Even in some encounters that seemed to be ok for restoration shamans like Megaera, we are still weaker than other healers (not the holy priest of course). It's just pathetic the use CH has nowadays. As this tier is designed we are most ridiculous spec/class ever, that's the sad truth

    what about that nerf to mana cost in HR? its a really clever change now that we must be perfectly spread in 85% of the encounters

    do u expect any kind of buff ?
    I'm expecting some major buffs. The specc simply can't continue like this. If Blizz doesn't buff us soon, then I'm definitely off this game.
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    Actually the backlash from pandas is because alot of the people didn't grow up.

  15. #35
    Resto shammy has been my favorite class/spec since my first Tauren back in vanilla, then switching to alliance in BC. I really don't give a flop if they're topping healer charts or whatever it is they use to gauge how good they are. It's just a really fun spec to play. I have one of each of the other healer types as well, and I much, MUCH prefer resto shaman. It's just so much simpler and more enjoyable for me. Granted, I only do 5 mans, and I have noticed the gear that drops for raids. Like someone else said, Spirit is good to a point, then it's almost worthless...but almost every piece of raid gear I've seen for caster mail has spirit on it, which means wasted itemization. But I guess that's another thread.

    I think my absolute biggest complaint, though this goes for the class in general, is the castration of the totems that came with MoP. I LIKED being able to 'fire and forget' four totems at once. It meant I could focus more on what the hell I was doing than paying attention to four different CDs that constantly needed to be refreshed.(Remember seals and judgments for pallies in Vanilla? I do >.>)

    I know this is slightly off topic, but I'm NOT currently happy with Enhancement. I've always been resto/enhance on my shams, and for some reason they just feel like wet noodles this expansion. They were a blast in Wrath and through most of Cata too. But I find myself even passing on gear for my enhancement spec because I just don't enjoy playing it right now.
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  16. #36
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    i love my shaman.. but its sad that i'm being outhealed so much. i'm struggling to be on par with our holy paladin who doesnt even break a sweat.. ok we only downed the first two bosses (alt group for me) and council raped us many times over but i used to be the healer everyone depended on. now i'll probably get sorted out for fights which can be two-healed.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Schadow View Post
    Same here, Blindlad. Show us.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=11169&e=11649 - Jikun platform being solo-healed while the 2nd healer is flying and the 3rd one is dead
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r.../?s=592&e=1191 - most of twin consorts solo-healed after both other healers die to tidal wave.

    In both still wasn't topping the meter, but the raid survived and landed a kill. If we are completely unviable, that would've never happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Alot of things have been said, and have been said for a long time. The discussion has been going on for sometime now. You just came late and started pointing at others as if they were talking crap.
    No, I've seen every discussion on this sub-forum since t11. I don't participate in them because most of them can be summarised by players whining about minor nuisances to get an easy way out by getting buffs, instead of working on their own capabilities. Prime example was t12 - with everyone doom and glooming over how bad they are instead of actually raiding, people that actually played the game still killed all the heroic bosses and still done well. Yes, even on Rag HC

    Endus, tibbee and Alltat (too bad we haven't seen him in a while) are usually the only voices of reason when it comes to resto. Everything else is just the typical ciclejerk of "oh, we have it really bad" that every class sub-forum is filled with (even disc priests during last patch were complaining). What I am advocating is just keeping a level head about this whole ordeal, it is just a game after all. Yes, there are flaws in our class, but writing quit posts over not topping healing meters is just silly.
    Last edited by Blindlad; 2013-03-11 at 02:26 PM.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Blindlad View Post
    Which is a way better argument and one we can all relate to then just "look at raidbots, make an angry tweet at gc". That is a weakness that has to be constantly held in check, specially for 25's, however, I do not think that it currently cripples the class to the point that it isn't competitive or viable. Meters are not be all end all
    Both arguments are necessary. Having screwed up, limited mechanics isn't going to be something that they feel is relevant or high priority to fix if our output is fine, like it was in T13 and was (somewhat borderline) in T14. You need to prove that it is creating an inability to be competitive, which logs so far in T15 are clearly showing.

    The viability thing is something that still needs to be evaluated. I don't think having MTT/Purification/Stormlash is going to necessarily be sufficient to make Resto Shaman worth raid spots if they really are going to be 30% behind. The extra mana that MTT gives to the rest of the healers is at best a wash if they each need to heal 6% harder to cover for the lack of throughput that Resto Shaman brings.

    On top of that, how much fun is it really to play a spec that has no hope of being competitive with other specs but is only brought there to bring some token buffs? That is TBC level class design. My GM joked to me the other day that they should make the Shaman 4pc so you can drop MTT outside the raid instance and have it affect people inside (so you don't need to actually have a Resto Shaman in to get it). GC has said repeatedly that there is no longer a DPS/HPS output tax being applied to specs for the utility they bring to the raid because it is too difficult to quantify utility and every spec thinks they don't have enough. When you consider that Paladins and Disc Priests also bring a huge amount of utility, and Druids and Monks both bring some utility, there is no justification at all for this type of output gap.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Blindlad View Post
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=11169&e=11649 - Jikun platform being solo-healed while the 2nd healer is flying and the 3rd one is dead
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r.../?s=592&e=1191 - most of twin consorts solo-healed after both other healers die to tidal wave.

    In both still wasn't topping the meter, but the raid survived and landed a kill. If we are completely unviable, that would've never happened.
    First of all, if you think that you solo healed those fights, then you need to learn what solo healing a boss actually means.



    Quote Originally Posted by Blindlad View Post
    No, I've seen every discussion on this sub-forum since t11. I don't participate in them because most of them can be summarised by players whining about minor nuisances to get an easy way out by getting buffs, instead of working on their own capabilities. Prime example was t12 - with everyone doom and glooming over how bad they are instead of actually raiding, people that actually played the game still killed all the heroic bosses and still done well. Yes, even on Rag HC

    Endus, tibbee and Alltat (too bad we haven't seen him in a while) are usually the only voices of reason when it comes to resto. Everything else is just the typical ciclejerk of "oh, we have it really bad" that every class sub-forum is filled with (even disc priests during last patch were complaining). What I am advocating is just keeping a level head about this whole ordeal, it is just a game after all. Yes, there are flaws in our class, but writing quit posts over not topping healing meters is just silly.
    It doesn't matter how many discussions you have seen. It doesn't matter if you think people are whining. What matters is that you are coming in here and telling people everything is fine. Me and pretty much every Resto Shaman doesn't care if you think they are fine. Most of us have played this game for a long time and most of us have seen end game content, not just you. If you think we are whining, then keep it to yourself. Why does it bother you so much if we think out specc isn't performing well and we need buffs? Why does it bother you we are discussing how our specc can be improved?

    And who the hell here said they will quit if they are not topping meters? I said I'll stop playing the game if they fix our specc, which is in dire need of help.

    So far you have given no positive counter-argument whatsoever. All you have said is, don't look at meters, don't look at average output, don't whine, I have soloed healed, bla bla.

    Come back when you have actually solo healed a boss and have a better argument of how our specc is fine. Till then, stop posting, cause it's all garbage and a waste of time for everyone here.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by tibbee View Post
    On top of that, how much fun is it really to play a spec that has no hope of being competitive with other specs but is only brought there to bring some token buffs?
    I disagree. It's not that we have no hope of being competitive, it's just that we really have to work hard in order to do so. I cleared ToT with both my paladin and my shaman on 25 man this week. I think I healed more on my paladin than my shaman on nearly every single boss, and it was the most relaxed raid I've been in. Clearing it on my shaman, I felt competitive with monks and on some fights disc priests, but holy hell did I have to work for it.

    Rain is still going to be a large chunk of our healing, you just really have to manage it well. The capability of keeping up with most classes on different fights is there, it's just a hell of a lot harder to achieve with our quality of life being affected by spread out fights. I personally would rather play a class that has to work to compete, but as I said in my first post, we are seriously overdue some buffs.

    Don't forget as well that Paladin output will be reduced significantly when they're forced to drop their T14 4 set, and for once we actually have a decent 2/4 set coming in T15.

    It's a shame though, because we could be a viable healing option for most of these fights if just a few things were changed. But we're just going to be overshadowed again.
    Last edited by Hamerfal; 2013-03-11 at 03:23 PM.

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