Thread: Ban DPS Metres

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  1. #21
    Field Marshal Mersynd's Avatar
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    Instead of Blizzard banning meters, they should make an IQ test requirement to queue for LFD or LFR so that people who can't understand a 5 button rotation will not hold the group back. How about that

  2. #22
    Pandaren Monk Mnevis's Avatar
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    How do you go out of your way to not explain a bossfight to someone?

  3. #23
    I wouldn't want them banned, but it is annoying when people use low DPS as an excuse to kick an obviously low geared player during an otherwise smooth run.

    My sister isn't a very good player, but with a little practice she used to do decent Ret DPS back in Cata. Come MoP she started playing late due to work (M.D.), so I started helping her out. During a Heroic Temple of the Jade Serpent I said in chat that she wasn't very geared and to please excuse her low DPS. We where going great, bosses died no problem, and as we are preparing to go into the last boss they decide to kick her out. I would understand if we had wiped or if she had slowed down the run, but that wasn't the case, the run was smooth. I, of course, asked why, they said DPS, so I dropped group. I didn't need to be there, my sister did, I know they probably got two new happy DPS in like 3 seconds, but I have no desire to play with people like that.
    My sister stopped playing not much after that since I, or guildmates, couldn't be around all the time to help her gear up to get to LFR since her job didn't leave her much time for dailies.
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  4. #24
    let's ban noobs instead

  5. #25
    So... What DPS were you pulling? As for the kicking... It's everyone's game time. They can initiate a kick vote for any reason they like, if others agree with it the vote will pass.

    As for what DPS you should have been doing, as a ret I found that coming out of heroic DS gear my DPS was pretty much staying the same with every level, with my primary stat gains roughly levelling out by secondary stat losses - though I certainly wasn't using wireless net as a HM raider. IIRC by level 89 with the beginning of higher ilvl blues my DPS had started increasing gradually. I wasn't paying a hell of a lot of attention, and I was suffering from tremendous lag, but if I was able to pull over DS level DPS with at times over 1 second lag so who knows how many GCDs I lost, it would be reasonable enough to expect a lesser skilled player to be pulling 30k DPS or more in a levelling dungeon by that time.

    Perhaps there are some tips we can give you? Like maximising inq up time and macros for your CDs or even addons like CLCret/CD trackers to easily follow how long until your next bowl of wet noodles (execution sentence) or AW.

  6. #26
    The Lightbringer Kathranis's Avatar
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    I wouldn't mind if Blizzard implemented a DPS monitor that you could use to measure your own DPS, while breaking some of the add-on functionality for measuring other players' DPS or sharing DPS meter results. For example, in random scenarios, LFD, and LFR, it could prevent the game from logging the combat actions of other players. Then combat log parsing and DPS meters could be reserved for premade groups and raids.

    This would allow individual players to judge their own performance and limit the bragging/bashing done by other players.

    It would also allow Blizzard to give more information on encounters in the Dungeon Journal, such as including recommended minimum DPS. That would allow a player to know if their performance on a given encounter is sufficient.

    That could even be tied into the kick tool somehow. If a player's DPS for an encounter is extremely low (say, well below the recommended minimum DPS for the encounter) it could enable an option to vote-to-kick for low DPS.
    Last edited by Kathranis; 2013-03-10 at 07:56 AM.

  7. #27
    See now... here's the funny thing. People keep saying "requeue and hope for nice group or go with guildies"... but in all reality, would you really want to group with a person who absolutely for the love of their life can't pull their weight? I'm talking about the person who is somehow managing 5k dps when everyone else including tank and healer are doing at least 30? Yeah, me neither. Even as a guildie, if I discovered someone was pretty darn bad and was unable to improve even after numerous suggestions... I would just stop having them tag along with me. Depending on the scenario, I might even say out loud "dude, you're bad. Terrible, in fact. So terrible that I don't want to group with you until you improve."

  8. #28
    DPS meters are a tool. It is the people using that tool incorrectly that are the problem.

    Let's take for example the classic example of Patchwerk, at level 80 (in appropriate gear of course)

    Patchwerk's will enrage after six minutes of combat. This enrage is not survivable, so raid DPS must be sufficient to kill Patchwerk before six minutes is up.

    For 10 player, the total raid DPS must be at least:

    4,322,950/(6x60) = 12008

    Your raid needs to pump out 12008 DPS combined as a raid.
    With 5 people DPSing (if 3 healing) that will be 12008/5 = 2402 DPS
    With 6 people DPSing (as is the norm) that will be 12008/6 = 2001 DPS
    With 7 people DPSing (if 1 healing) that will be 12008/7 = 1705 DPS

    In summary, ~2,000 DPS per DPS is necessary to defeat Patchwerk. These requirements will be slightly lower in practice since tanks will contribute DPS as well.

    With this example, using a DPS meter will very clearly illustrate which of your raid members are pulling their weight, and which ones are. Now if the ones that are above what the requirement is, this can, in part, make up for the ones that arent.

    In this case the use of a DPS meter is very effective.


    The problem is people who cannot see the meters for what they are.

    Player 1 blows all his CD's does 200k DPS for 1 minute then dies (probably as a result of pulling aggro)
    Player 2 uses his CDs more effectively and watches his threat and does 175k DPS over the space of 5 minutes.

    According to recount, Player 1 did more DPS than Player 2, as Recount only counts for the actual time you are alive. When you die it stops tracking your DPS.
    But if you were to then check DAMAGE DONE you would see that while player 2 did less damage per second than player 1, he did far more damage to the boss from having been alive longer.

    Most people would see player 1's DPS as being better than player 2's (to which recount would agree) but the overall effectiveness of player 1 is not very good.

    I'm sure you have seen the above occur in LFR, perhaps on the trash before Lei Shi, some hotshot DPS, does super high AOE, over aggros the tanks, and dies as a result, yet someone with less DPS lives longer and does more damage and is a better asset to the group.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Play a game that doesn't support DPS meters and you'll see how that changes the whole feel of group content. When something goes wrong, people don't blame the DPS. They focus on the real problems, which in most situations are things like coordination, bad planning etc.
    This is false. I've played Diablo 3 (without DPS meters) and when wipes happen in a public group, no one has an idea why it happened. In particular, no one can be completely sure if someone else is pulling their weight.

  10. #30
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    This is false. I've played Diablo 3 (without DPS meters) and when wipes happen in a public group, no one has an idea why it happened. In particular, no one can be completely sure if someone else is pulling their weight.
    I was talking about MMOs, but ok, in the MMOs I've played that hasn't happened to me. But if you're saying, you wipe and you have no idea why, then that doesn't sound like a DPS issue. You have DPS issues when everything is going fine and then the time runs out and everything explodes. Usually that should happen when enrages are involved and when the boss is almost dead.
    Last edited by Nindoriel; 2013-03-10 at 08:00 AM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Grinderofl View Post
    See now... here's the funny thing. People keep saying "requeue and hope for nice group or go with guildies"... but in all reality, would you really want to group with a person who absolutely for the love of their life can't pull their weight? I'm talking about the person who is somehow managing 5k dps when everyone else including tank and healer are doing at least 30?
    As a healer, I genuinely don't care even if I top the dps when I'm doing some heroics to get VP or something. Not everyone is good at WoW, in fact some are horrible players, but I know what I sign up for when I queue. If I want a quick run, I go with my guildies and spec dps since with our gear, nobody even needs heals anymore.

    But I find the "Oh, there there..." attitude here very strange. Yes, some people behave like asshats in LFD/LFR, but "I got kicked once, now I wish Blizzard would ban dps meters" isn't exactly the epitome of niceness either. Not exactly different behaviour...

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    I was talking about MMOs, but ok, in the MMOs I've played that hasn't happened to me.
    I would consider Diablo 3 to be multi-player enough to be considered an MMO.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Marahdeka View Post
    You haven't provided key info: how much were you behind them? if they did 40k and you did 35k and you got kicked, they were elitist jerks. Queue again. If they did 40k and you did 8k, the kick was well deserved. Try and read about your class, 8k isn't a gear issue.
    Calling for a ban on meters is like calling for a ban on marathon stopwatches.
    I met a guy in heroic earlier who wanted to kick another person who was doing "only" 20k dps while he was doing 100k, reason: "don't feel like boosting".

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans Grimord's Avatar
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    I understand how bad that kind of experience is, but banning DPS meters would probably require the removal or at least some form of reduction/restriction in the combat log which won't happen. I've played other MMOs that didn't allow addons and one thing I surely missed are DPS meters.

    And I don't miss them due to epeen reasons only, they can be a genuinely useful tool. While raiding, after a try, you can just go through them fast and try to detect if someone failed to maximize their DPS or just took more damage than they should. Plus, it helps you test your spells and abilities and figure out how to increase DPS and whatnot.


  15. #35
    Elemental Lord Nindoriel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    I would consider Diablo 3 to be multi-player enough to be considered an MMO.
    It's multiplayer. It's not massively multiplayer.

  16. #36
    How do we know the OPs group didn't timidly ask him if he wanted any advice on rotation, then he threatened to track everyone down IRL and kill them for daring to questions his skills?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Nindoriel View Post
    Play a game that doesn't support DPS meters and you'll see how that changes the whole feel of group content. When something goes wrong, people don't blame the DPS. They focus on the real problems, which in most situations are things like coordination, bad planning etc.
    It might be the case in 5 man dungeons, but in raids - a issue is often to low dps, which can be both to to defeat the enrage, defeat the adds which would killl you after x time, or in general just ease the encounter. Some games (And looking at your avatar, SW:TOR) ain't as much focused as dps, because it favours other things - but even then dps is very important.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by zaheer12a View Post
    I'm not really sure how this went down, but if you were one of the people in dungeons doing 15k dps, then I totally understand why you got kicked and I would have voted yes too. People were doing 15k DPS two expansions ago... I don't expect people to come in there in quest greens and do 90k or something, but at least pull your weight instead of having 4 others just boosting you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    You should make an effort to play better.
    I have never heard of anyone who plays at least decently for their gear getting kicked in a dungeon or LFR.

    And yes, its perfectly possible to get 40k dps, at least on bosses, on a fresh 90 that's barely able to queue for heroics.

    Quote Originally Posted by yurano View Post
    Training dummies.

    It doesn't take all that long to learn a PvE rotation. On PTR, I can completely gear up and learn a new class well enough to pull competitive DPS in under an hour.
    See, it's people like you pulling numbers out of dark places who are the real problem.

    When I hit 90 the DPS calculator showed my optimal DPS at 25K, and I could easily do 23-24K on the dummies.
    Yet people would rage-quit from scenarioes (which are made for fresh 90's for gods sake) because I wasn't doing 50K or more.

    Sure, the meters are great tools, it's just too bad most people don't use the properly.

  19. #39
    People pull low DPS. It happens, for various reasons. Not skilled, starting to get geared, etc. I don't mind people pulling low DPS so long as they are actively trying.

  20. #40
    Mechagnome
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    When you ding 90 you're able to do approximately 40k+ DPS in your very first dungeon. And no I'm not pulling that number out of my ass, I know it from my own experience which was very recent. Of course you need to do your rotation reasonably well for this.
    I never got kicked or laughed at or talked about with this.
    But then there are people out there who manage to do only 10-20k DPS on level 90, which is extremely low and makes a dungeon run take way too long. In such cases, those players are likely to be kicked because they underperform so much.
    DPS varies a bit depending on class and encounter of course, but it doesn't vary that much.

    So I'm not sure what happened. If you're one of the guys who do way too low DPS, you maybe could say that it's your first time, at least then people won't have unrealistic expectations about you. Otherwise, it's expected of the others to know the dungeon and know their class.
    Also, there is nothing more annoying than meeting someone who plays bad but doesn't want to admit it or even starts arguing about it. So if that was the case with you, scratch these thoughts ASAP. If you know you did bad, stand to it. Or at least, if you're new and REALLY have no clue yet, say that you are, and try to figure out why/what went wrong and what to do better next time.
    It could also have been that you ran into a pre-made group or guild group who just wanted to rush through as fast as possible, in this case any fresh level 90 character will be considered a burden when the other DPS do 100k+ DPS and you should simply ignore that and re-queue.
    If you're eating/telephoning at the same time, or are otherwise distracted, then simply say so.

    These are the most likely scenarios.
    Last edited by TaurenNinja; 2013-03-10 at 08:21 AM.

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