Throne of Thunder - World First Heroic Thread!

[Jtbrig7390]

That DS race.... worst tier ever.
I can totally say Paragon lost to BL because the ban was well deserved, but the double lockout for the asians made the whole thing ridicolous. Good to see that west and asia are now separate rankings on wowprogress.

kinda dose not make it fair ether.

how can you claim to be the best guild if you don't race vs all of the guilds. next thing you know they will do separate rankings for EU/US because of the time zone difference.

That is like saying your the best starcraft player in the world because you won a tournament in ur country but it was not vs the best in the world just those in ur country.

Or that you refuse to face SK starcraft player's and still claim to be the best.

[Theiea]

With such reasoning Ensidia was the real winner of the ICC race, since they were banned and also missed out on a HC lockout. No, if you get yourself banned for cheating you have to suffer the consequences, and not use it as an excuse for losing.

Also, yes Paragon lost lots of core members between DS and MoP, but hey they weren't the only ones. All guilds lose ppl. Good ppl. Core ppl. What you do is recruit more. Imo Paragon's real flaw nowadays is their stubbornness to only recruit Finnish players. It used to be a strength but now I dare say it's holding them back. Recruiting from all around Europe seems to be working fine for Method for example, and it would for Paragon too if only they weren't so stuck up.

Ensidia was banned for 3 days, and it was their normal kill that they exploited, not heroic. They didnt miss a lockout.

[Deleted]

Some people in this thread truly worship Paragon. We get it, they are good. But you can't claim that they're better than Method or Blood Legion when 10 man and 25 man are different raids and differently tuned. It's impossible to balance 10 man and 25 man. You don't know if 10 man Twin Consorts and/or Lei-Shen and others are way easier on 10 man. Some bosses can obviously be harder on 10 man, and some easier. But don't come here talking about it like it's balanced, because it's not and it never will be.

The reason Paragon is dominating the 10 man race is because the most hardcore players play 25 man, it's always been like that. Hardcore 10 man guilds didn't even exist before 4.0.

[Senen]

T13 progress was crap. Many guilds ban, the whole "fireland lockouts in China" thing, etc.
It's not a coincidence if three KR/TW guild took the top 3 while no one has ever heard of them before.
Of course these guilds are excellent, but they don't play in the same category, exactly like 10-man/25-man guilds don't race the same race.

I wouln't use the T13 progress to say "at the end of Cataclysm, the guild X was Yth in the world."

[Kittyburger]

kinda dose not make it fair ether.

how can you claim to be the best guild if you don't race vs all of the guilds. next thing you know they will do separate rankings for EU/US because of the time zone difference.

Pretty much impossible to balance the race in world currently. One solution would be that they would gather the top guilds in one region so that they have the same rules, they are at the same timezone and the conditions would be same. They would have own rooms, which are soundproof so that other guilds would not hear you when you are planning the pulls and tactics. They would have one Blizzard employee to watch over that they would not exploit or that they could quickly fix bugs.

But honestly, would that make sense? How would you declare which guild is invited there? And if they have to sit there for weeks or months, could they do that?

On topic: Paragon will win the 10mans race, but it might not be on this reset they kill Lei Shen. Could be wrong tho.

[Grinco]

Some people in this thread truly worship Paragon. We get it, they are good. But you can't claim that they're better than Method or Blood Legion when 10 man and 25 man are different raids and differently tuned. It's impossible to balance 10 man and 25 man. You don't know if 10 man Twin Consorts and/or Lei-Shen and others are way easier on 10 man. Some bosses can obviously be harder on 10 man, and some easier. But don't come here talking about it like it's balanced, because it's not and it never will be.

The reason Paragon is dominating the 10 man race is because the most hardcore players play 25 man, it's always been like that. Hardcore 10 man guilds didn't even exist before 4.0.

If Paragon had the chance they would be still playing 25-man but losing too many of the core players forced them to go 10-man. It's easier for guilds like BL or Method to find another guild to merge with than Paragon to find a finnish guild which is as good as them (ps. There aren't any of them as good as they are).

And no one in the world right now can tell right now if 10-man 11th boss is harder than 25-man (except for Blizzard maybe?). It is possible that Paragon is just superior to everyone else (check Firelands).

And yes I am a Paragon supporter ""

[Deleted]

kinda dose not make it fair ether.

how can you claim to be the best guild if you don't race vs all of the guilds. next thing you know they will do separate rankings for EU/US because of the time zone difference.

That is like saying your the best starcraft player in the world because you won a tournament in ur country but it was not vs the best in the world just those in ur country.

Or that you refuse to face SK starcraft player's and still claim to be the best.

You're right, but asians have harder bosses on 25m, higher ilvl drops to compensate and separate lockouts for 10m and 25m. It's a different race because it has different rules.
They are behind on progress right now, and that's not really because of lack of skill or dedication or the delayed start imho.

[Dranged]

It's easier for guilds like BL or Method to find another guild to merge with than Paragon to find a finnish guild which is as good as them (ps. There aren't any of them as good as they are).

And who is forcing Paragon to only recruit Finnish players? It's stubbornness and narrow mindedness to limit yourself like that. I don't recall Nihilum, Ensidia, Method, Apex, Envy etc. ever declining ppl because of their nationality. If Paragon only opened their eyes to the player base outside of their snowy little country they could easily field a 25m team again. But instead they took the easy way out and downsized to LFR-difficulty.

[Senen]

they can have 1guy extending 10/12 or 1guy 8/12. then the rest farms 7bosses, joins 8/12 extended, and joins 10/12, skipping the hardest bosses while getting almost all possible gear.

That's not possible. Heroic id don't work that way.
Unless they clear everything in NM and then use the 10/12 id from the guy who extended it. But it would be very surprising to see them clear in NM as it would bring far less gear.

[Grinco]

And who is forcing Paragon to only recruit Finnish players? It's stubbornness and narrow mindedness to limit yourself like that. I don't recall Nihilum, Ensidia, Method, Apex, Envy etc. ever declining ppl because of their nationality. If Paragon only opened their eyes to the player base outside of their snowy little country they could easily field a 25m team again. But instead they took the easy way out and downsized to LFR-difficulty.

That's true and I don't know. Guess it goes along the lines of not wanting to go international, patriotism or stubborness as you said. Or just doing what they want to do

[Bonkura]

The reason Paragon is dominating the 10 man race is because the most hardcore players play 25 man, it's always been like that. Hardcore 10 man guilds didn't even exist before 4.0.

To fill in, I'm fairly sure that Paragon is the only 10 man guild out there that starts early on the day (as in skip school/jobs) and do up to 16 hours (or even more) raids during progress. I know for sure this was the case in T14 and the only other 10 man guild that might be doing more than 8-10 hours a day (during weekdays) could be Moonz.

[Zonex]

And who is forcing Paragon to only recruit Finnish players? It's stubbornness and narrow mindedness to limit yourself like that. I don't recall Nihilum, Ensidia, Method, Apex, Envy etc. ever declining ppl because of their nationality. If Paragon only opened their eyes to the player base outside of their snowy little country they could easily field a 25m team again. But instead they took the easy way out and downsized to LFR-difficulty.

Someone's a little hurt paragon turned down their application... You seem to have it out for a guild that seems to have already explained their principle on what they want to do, and how they want to raid.

Using your logic, all 25man guilds can downsize to 10man; surely there is a disparity in skill level between their best and worst, and taking their best ensures them "more" world firsts.

paragon stands to be a Finnish only guild, and the lack of more core players lead to downsizing, and they've already mentioned that the recruits they got shortly after losing so many core players did not perform up to par.

The core raiders still in paragon are in the higher echelons concerning skill level, and some probably don't fluently speak english to communicate to "outsiders" the way they want to. The easiest way for it to sync properly is to have Finnish players.

[Senen]

And who is forcing Paragon to only recruit Finnish players? It's stubbornness and narrow mindedness to limit yourself like that. I don't recall Nihilum, Ensidia, Method, Apex, Envy etc. ever declining ppl because of their nationality. If Paragon only opened their eyes to the player base outside of their snowy little country they could easily field a 25m team again. But instead they took the easy way out and downsized to LFR-difficulty.

I think they don't restrict themselves to nationality but language.
Maybe some of their core raiders don't speak english fluently enough and they prefer to be able to talk in a easy and concise way.

And yeah, obviously "10HM" = "LFR-difficulty".... -_-'

[Gouca]

And who is forcing Paragon to only recruit Finnish players? It's stubbornness and narrow mindedness to limit yourself like that. I don't recall Nihilum, Ensidia, Method, Apex, Envy etc. ever declining ppl because of their nationality. If Paragon only opened their eyes to the player base outside of their snowy little country they could easily field a 25m team again. But instead they took the easy way out and downsized to LFR-difficulty.

Simply because communication isn't as natural and effective if used via second language. Also, fitting people in GMT+2 (Finland) with, let's say UK (GMT), wouldn't have much impact during progression but would change the daily basis so that half of your guild is online when the other half is sleeping.

Comparing Nihilum & Ensidia to Paragon? Nihilum merged with SKG to create Ensidia, and then vanished totally. If I were you I wouldn't use Ensidia as an example when talking in the quoted point of view.

LFR-difficulty? Coming from a player who killed Will in mid-January & has no prior hardcore-progression?

[Deleted]

Also, yes Paragon lost lots of core members between DS and MoP, but hey they weren't the only ones. All guilds lose ppl. Good ppl. Core ppl. What you do is recruit more. Imo Paragon's real flaw nowadays is their stubbornness to only recruit Finnish players. It used to be a strength but now I dare say it's holding them back. Recruiting from all around Europe seems to be working fine for Method for example, and it would for Paragon too if only they weren't so stuck up.

I think the problem with that is that Method has already recruited the best in Europe. If Paragon started recruiting in Europe they will just be recruiting worse players than Method.

[Gouca]

To fill in, I'm fairly sure that Paragon is the only 10 man guild out there that starts early on the day (as in skip school/jobs) and do up to 16 hours (or even more) raids during progress. I know for sure this was the case in T14 and the only other 10 man guild that might be doing more than 8-10 hours a day (during weekdays) could be Moonz.

Perhaps, but it's now 6 days into the week and the second 10-man guild is stuck at 8/13 and the third at 6/13, making your comment rather invalid.

[Deleted]

Dranged seems to be just flaming. How is paragons language and DS progress relating at all to this race?

[Deleted]

22:49:20 from [Xkiie] paragon 4% wipe on lei shen >_>

Please don't kill it, so close to the ID reset

[Dranged]

Someone's a little hurt paragon turned down their application... You seem to have it out for a guild that seems to have already explained their principle on what they want to do, and how they want to raid.

I have only ever applied to one guild, and I am still there. Furthermore I am nowhere near good enough a player to play on the level of the guilds mentioned in this thread, and I would never delude myself to believe otherwise. I don't have it out for Paragon. I am enjoying following this world first race just as I enjoy watching a game of football or hockey. It just that for me Paragon isn't a part of the race that I am eagerly following. Simply because 25m is where 99% of all hardcore players are competing. If I had enjoyed the 10m race I would likely be thrilled by Paragon's progress.

Using your logic, all 25man guilds can downsize to 10man; surely there is a disparity in skill level between their best and worst, and taking their best ensures them "more" world firsts.

Abso-fucking-lutely. All 25m guilds could easily downsize to 10m and improve and speed up their progress significantly. That goes without saying. Vodka for example could have gone 10m instead of merging with Exodus. Why don't they then? Well because the 10m scene is pretty empty and holds no prestige. There are barely any guilds raiding seriously in 10m and this has always been the case outside of Asia. And how fun is it to win first prize in a competition with no opponents and no audience? For me personally 10m is perfect for alt runs, but it comes nowhere near our 25m raids in terms of fun and sense of accomplishment. But to each his own I suppose.

The core raiders still in paragon are in the higher echelons concerning skill level, and some probably don't fluently speak english to communicate to "outsiders" the way they want to. The easiest way for it to sync properly is to have Finnish players.

It's 2013 now, and education in Scandianvia (I live in Sweden myself) is excellent. We start learning English very early in school, and along with the constant cultural indoctrination from the US through media it makes it extremely unlikely that any member of Paragon would have poorer linguestic skills than those of the other European guilds.

[Senen]

All 25m guilds could easily downsize to 10m...

Yes.

...and improve and speed up their progress significantly.

Nope.