Throne of Thunder - World First Heroic Thread!

[Deleted]

That is not entirely true all the time. What some people choose to forget is that 25 mans have 2.5 times the players as 10 mans. This means about 2.5 times as many mistakes happen when one happens for 10 man.

So yes... in 25 man 1 mistake may be recoverable, but 2 or 3 are just as bad as one in 10 man (depending on the fight and which role obviously)

Well, you've 1 brez in 10, and 3 in 25 men.

[Radalek]

That is not entirely true all the time. What some people choose to forget is that 25 mans have 2.5 times the players as 10 mans. This means about 2.5 times as many mistakes happen when one happens for 10 man.

So yes... in 25 man 1 mistake may be recoverable, but 2 or 3 are just as bad as one in 10 man (depending on the fight and which role obviously)

Not entirely true on most of bosses but absolutely true on hardest bosses, those that define one tier. Trust me, one slight mistake, slightly bad positioning, lagspike or anything in first 4 minutes on Dark Animus by any of the 25 people and your raid is gone. Same goes for Rag heroic or any other really hard boss which automatically makes it harder to deal with in 25 man raid than for their 10 man counterparts. For that reason Blizz will never be able to tune bosses equally.
As soon as boss has any mechanic that can wipe the raid if one person fails to deal with it difficulty shifts to 25 man.

[Therec]

Not entirely true on most of bosses but absolutely true on hardest bosses, those that define one tier. Trust me, one slight mistake, slightly bad positioning, lagspike or anything in first 4 minutes on Dark Animus by any of the 25 people and your raid is gone. Same goes for Rag heroic or any other really hard boss which automatically makes it harder to deal with in 25 man raid than for their 10 man counterparts. For that reason Blizz will never be able to tune bosses equally.

Exactly, the argument that 25 man gets 3X as many mistakes hardly applies to current raid encounters, where most major mistakes are a wipe no matter what. Dark Animus is a prime example. If one person dies at the beginning it a wipe, regardless of raid size. You may even say its harder for 25 man since you have 2.5X as many players to mess it up. 25 man has a bigger cushion for careless mistakes, but not for major encounter mechanics.

[aarro]

I dont care what anybody says BUT I wont be counting paragon as world first if they down the last boss first... Lame 10man groups dont count for me!

Infracted. Don't start a 25 vs 10 war here

[Kazlofski]

I dont care what anybody says BUT I wont be counting method as world first if they down the last boss first... Lame 25man groups dont count for me!

same idea, stop with these ridiculous excuses.

[aarro]

same idea, stop with these ridiculous excuses.

Why the hell is it an excuse? MY opinion

[mikoslav]

I dont care what anybody says BUT I wont be counting paragon as world first if they down the last boss first... Lame 10man groups dont count for me!

you are beyond lame, son.

[aarro]

you are beyond lame, son.

so for giving my opinion im lame!!?? LMAO!! Brilliant

[Deleted]

I dont care what anybody says BUT I wont be counting paragon as world first if they down the last boss first... Lame 10man groups dont count for me!

"My opinion > reality and what everyone else thinks"
Thanks for posting.

[fangless]

Exactly, the argument that 25 man gets 3X as many mistakes hardly applies to current raid encounters, where most major mistakes are a wipe no matter what. Dark Animus is a prime example. If one person dies at the beginning it a wipe, regardless of raid size. You may even say its harder for 25 man since you have 2.5X as many players to mess it up. 25 man has a bigger cushion for careless mistakes, but not for major encounter mechanics.

This is a point people just ignore. Maybe on normals, where there aren't as many raid wiping mechanics. Heroics, there are plenty of things that one person, 10 or 25, can screw up on and the raid just dies.

We had more Jin'rohk heroic wipes than we'd like to admit, because someone would "accidentally" dispel inside the puddle, or someone would immunity it off in the puddle, or some variant of that. We also had people die to the lightning being dragged through them, and the player not paying attention. Sure that's only 1 death and not as big of a deal, but it's also something that's easier to deal with when you have less people grouped up in melee.

Nearly every argument for the difficulty can swing both ways if you want to get into it.

[edlike]

Rational discussion and logic will never cover the gap between people's perception of 10 and 25. It's as polarizing as politics is. People fail to realize that in general they are separate but equal: some fights harder on each difficulty, generally in a balance.

Some people will always react emotionally (or partisan if you will xD ), and no amount of calm discussion will do anything to change that. Just gotta accept it.

[barackohmama]

Экзорсус 10/13 now

[mikoslav]

so for giving my opinion im lame!!?? LMAO!! Brilliant

you are lame, cos you only raid LFR and you still feel entitled to call one of the most extremely skilled and organized raid teams - lame.

[Deleted]

Экзорсус 10/13 now

First a guy from the future, then a blast from the past. This thread is full of win.

[JeanJacket]

I dont care what anybody says BUT I wont be counting paragon as world first if they down the last boss first... Lame 10man groups dont count for me!

no one cares what you think, keep your stupid opinion to yourself

Keep it civil

[xiic]

Not entirely true on most of bosses but absolutely true on hardest bosses, those that define one tier. Trust me, one slight mistake, slightly bad positioning, lagspike or anything in first 4 minutes on Dark Animus by any of the 25 people and your raid is gone. Same goes for Rag heroic or any other really hard boss which automatically makes it harder to deal with in 25 man raid than for their 10 man counterparts. For that reason Blizz will never be able to tune bosses equally.
As soon as boss has any mechanic that can wipe the raid if one person fails to deal with it difficulty shifts to 25 man.

Go watch Method's heroic dark animus kill, they had at least two people die and still made the insane dps check.

[Deleted]

Go watch Method's heroic dark animus kill, they had at least two people die and still made the insane dps check.

I'd go watch it but such a video doesn't exist (publicly)

[Deleted]

So, how would a 25 man team made up of all the best in the world look? Let´s call it the allstar team, best player in every spot. Language barriers, us/eu etc left out. Just the 25 top dogs.

[aarro]

you are lame, cos you only raid LFR and you still feel entitled to call one of the most extremely skilled and organized raid teams - lame.

I never called paragon anything at all LOLLLLL!! Why would I!? My argument is with 10 & 25 raids no matter who the guilds are.... learn to read pal

[subanark]

It is a good thing that the top guilds are getting though most of the heroics in the first week (that they are up). This means it is tuned such that most of these encounters can be done without heroic raid level gear. No need to farm up massive amounts of gear from previous bosses so that you even stand a chance at the harder ones. LK heroic was complete BS in that you needed pretty much a full set of BiS gear to get him down without the instance nerf (it was what 15% before the first kill)? I'm glad Blizzard has moved away from gear dependence and more towards skill.