1. #1

    combat or mutilate - 522/496 combat weapons 502/502 ass weapons

    so right now im assassnation and i use 2 502 daggers, i just got a 522 axe and i got a normal claw from chek'zeer, would it be better to go combat touse the 522 weapon?

  2. #2
    High Overlord terminaltrip421's Avatar
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    assassination is so much more fun...
    <--all 90 now.

  3. #3
    Bloodsail Admiral Saegno's Avatar
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    You should be better off staying mut until you get 4pc t15. As soon as that happens go ahead and swap to combat as it is miles ahead of mut with 4pc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lohe View Post
    If you're semi-hardcore or semi-casual what's the other half? To me, they're both the same thing.
    Canicus - 577 - Arcane Mage - US Mal'Ganis Horde - 12/14H T16

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by datrupimp View Post
    so right now im assassnation and i use 2 502 daggers, i just got a 522 axe and i got a normal claw from chek'zeer, would it be better to go combat touse the 522 weapon?
    1. I'm going to assume that the 502 daggers are the one from Stone Guard heroic.

    2. Do you have a Sha gem for that Claw?

    If so, go Combat if you're more comfortable with the faster spec, since that gem would put the 496 Claw over the top of the 502 daggers and thus make Combat overall better.
    However, you may want to stay Assassination until (like Saegno said) you can get the T15 four-piece bonus since that will catapult Combat over the top of Assassination by a large margin.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Saegno View Post
    You should be better off staying mut until you get 4pc t15. As soon as that happens go ahead and swap to combat as it is miles ahead of mut with 4pc.
    Well this does not bear out at all. Every top Rogue I have looked at with 4 piece is playing Assassination e.g. Exodus's Rogues.

    I think you would need to have a much better Combat weapon than dagger to be in a position where Combat is straight up better. With the same gear I do not think it is, and certainly not "miles ahead".



    ---------- Post added 2013-03-11 at 11:59 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    However, you may want to stay Assassination until (like Saegno said) you can get the T15 four-piece bonus since that will catapult Combat over the top of Assassination by a large margin.
    Again, where is the evidence of this? I just don't buy it. I am doing huge damage as Assassination and will need some serious empirical evidence to force a change.

    And don't just say "scaling". Assassination scaling is very similar to Combat atm with the Assassin's Resolve buff.
    Last edited by jtstormrage; 2013-03-11 at 12:03 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Carp The Fish View Post
    1. I'm going to assume that the 502 daggers are the one from Stone Guard heroic.

    2. Do you have a Sha gem for that Claw?

    If so, go Combat if you're more comfortable with the faster spec, since that gem would put the 496 Claw over the top of the 502 daggers and thus make Combat overall better.
    However, you may want to stay Assassination until (like Saegno said) you can get the T15 four-piece bonus since that will catapult Combat over the top of Assassination by a large margin.
    Combat is not a "huge margin" over assassination with t15 4-set. Looking at simc source, it appears as though it is modeling the 0.7s GCD for the full fight--not just during shadow blades. While yes, sub and assassination also benefit from this, combat benefits more.

    As evidence of this fact, go to http://simulationcraft.org/520/Raid_T15H.html and look at combat versus assassination vs subtlety.
    Compare the DPET and DPE of abilities by dividing the DPE by the DPET. This should get you GCD + latency. For every ability for assassination and subtlety, the DPE/DPET comes out to 0.736, which is a 0.7sec GCD with 36ms latency. For the combat abilities, they vary, most of them hovering at about 0.6sec GCD. If you assume a static 0.7sec GCD, with 0.5sec GCD during adrenaline rush, it comes out to 0.659sec GCD, or 0.695sec DPET factor. Comparing DPE to DPET of sinister strike is 45519 / 71070 = 0.640 (note: it's going to be slightly less than expected by straightforward averaging because during AR you cast more sinister strikes, so while AR uptime is ~25%, more than 25% of sinister strikes are cast during the 0.5sec GCD).

    Point being, simc may be overvaluing the 4-set bonus for combat (that's not saying that combat doesn't value the 4-set more than A or S, though), in large part due to the fact that outside of SB, combat still has more energy overflow than the other two specs and as such, the reduced GCD benefits combat more.

    The particular line of code in simc that shows this is at line 422 in the sc_rogue.cpp file:

    Code:
     virtual timespan_t gcd()
      {
        if ( trigger_gcd == timespan_t::zero() )
          return trigger_gcd;
        else if ( p() -> set_bonus.tier15_4pc_melee() )
          return timespan_t::from_seconds( 0.7 );
        else
          return melee_attack_t::gcd();
      }

    The key part is the middle section of the if/else chain. It's just checking if your gear set has t15 4-set bonus and applying a 0.7sec GCD--the whole time.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-03-11 at 12:52 PM.

  7. #7
    shadowboy is right.

    If you want to calculate on your own replace the line
    else if ( p() -> set_bonus.tier15_4pc_melee() )
    with
    else if ( p() -> set_bonus.tier15_4pc_melee() && p() -> buffs.shadow_blades -> up() )

  8. #8
    ass weapons anyone ? ^^ sry couldn't resist
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues in MoP:

    -Reroll another class, who wants rougue's anyway.
    -Diablo 3 Sold 15 Million Copys
    -Haste will fix it
    -Rogue's are fine

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Elmurda View Post
    shadowboy is right.

    If you want to calculate on your own replace the line
    else if ( p() -> set_bonus.tier15_4pc_melee() )
    with
    else if ( p() -> set_bonus.tier15_4pc_melee() && p() -> buffs.shadow_blades -> up() )
    Fix is live and Combat has lost ~4k DPS. Still the best spec for patchwerk fights

  10. #10
    I don't know if any of you guys tested the set bonus in PTR but it seems that its overvalued for many situations. It really isn't easy to get to use the extra resources even though the globals are shorter. With any lag or bad computer you won't see much difference and you will cap energy alot. Don't understand simulationcraft enough to see if the simulations include not being able to use a lot of the extra energy you have. And its a pretty terrible spamfest.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Runningman View Post
    I don't know if any of you guys tested the set bonus in PTR but it seems that its overvalued for many situations. It really isn't easy to get to use the extra resources even though the globals are shorter. With any lag or bad computer you won't see much difference and you will cap energy alot. Don't understand simulationcraft enough to see if the simulations include not being able to use a lot of the extra energy you have. And its a pretty terrible spamfest.
    Simulationcraft is a simulation. It will not allow you to use abilities during a GCD and it does account for latency.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Combat is not a "huge margin" over assassination with t15 4-set. Looking at simc source, it appears as though it is modeling the 0.7s GCD for the full fight--not just during shadow blades. While yes, sub and assassination also benefit from this, combat benefits more.
    So Simcraft is bugging out on it. Wonderful.
    I'd add Rune into my "Combat needs this to be OP" statement, but I get the sinking feeling Rune is only going to be as powerful as Berserking (the troll racial) and not a third Haste cooldown like I'd hoped.
    Carp - Illidan-US
    I wish I wish I was a fish.
    Rogue - Warlock

  13. #13
    Thanks for the insight shadowboy. Otherwise OP, as that have been said, there's no way double 502 daggers Assassination to surpass Combat if you are using a 522 + 496 sha-touched weapon, provided you have the 500 agi gem.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Elmurda View Post
    Fix is live and Combat has lost ~4k DPS. Still the best spec for patchwerk fights
    And since this tier has pretty much 0 Patchwerk style fights this dont count for much. Im assas right now and the spec is doing great on pretty much every situation, I find it realy ahrd to believe combat will simply do a magical leap foward on 4 pieces and make assas so much less viable, best case scenario for combat I think it passes assas by a samll margin and itll be pretty much a matter of wich spec you got better weapons for.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by DakonBlackblade View Post
    And since this tier has pretty much 0 Patchwerk style fights this dont count for much. Im assas right now and the spec is doing great on pretty much every situation, I find it realy ahrd to believe combat will simply do a magical leap foward on 4 pieces and make assas so much less viable, best case scenario for combat I think it passes assas by a samll margin and itll be pretty much a matter of wich spec you got better weapons for.
    That's pretty much it, even on patchwerk. With 4-set combat is not a huge margin ahead of assassination. It is, however, considerably far behind assassination without the 4-set because the specs are balanced around it--and it accounts for a lot of combat's damage.

  16. #16
    i tried both and combat was worse.. but now i have a 528fist weapon instead of the 496, what do you think?

  17. #17
    i think you'll do better in the spec you enjoy the most, as it tends with most things. don't put a ton of stock in sim dps numbers. use sims to determine your specific stat weights, sure, but the DPS numbers they spit out are all but impossible to reach in a real-world scenario.

    edit add: they're also useful for making sure you're not royally screwing up your rotation, but my point stands that expecting to see the same numbers they spit out isn't a realistic goal.
    Last edited by Ssith; 2013-03-22 at 02:11 PM.

  18. #18
    Ssith: Your edit is more to the point of sims than the main body of your post. Modeling tools don't exist to say "you should be doing this dps." Modeling tools exist to further our understanding of class mechanics and the subsequent rotational refinements, and the most obvious use for them--gearing decisions.

    When using modeling tools, what you're interested in is not so much the numbers they spit out (although they should provide a rough guideline). What you're looking for are CHANGES to those numbers when you change input conditions.

  19. #19
    i know, that's why i edited it. but far too many people still use them in terms of "the sims say i should be combat because it's 2k DPS higher!" when in practice they'll perform better as the spec they LIKE simply because they'll be more engaged in playing it. that was the original point, but i realize it wasn't all that clear.

  20. #20
    Stood in the Fire Attackrabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    ass weapons anyone ? ^^ sry couldn't resist
    Armed equines indeed :s

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