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  1. #1

    Catching up yay or nay

    Lately on these boards I see a change happening.

    First we had people who said: "OMG why can't Blizzard make all content (of that expansion) relevant?!"
    Now we have people who say: "OMG why do I need to catch up, I want to jump into the fray with my friends the moment I hit 90!!!!"

    So finally Blizzard listened to people who wanted to have all content relevant (cause it was supposed to be a shame of all the work the developers did and players wanted a natural progression, seeing the story, especially if they were new).
    But now people complain that they cannot go to the last instance after a short grind in 5 man heroics....

    Personally:

    I used to be a "very commited/dedicated" raider. And when I was with that mindset, I wanted everyone to be behind me if they stepped into the game late. They needed to do the same "amount of work" as I did to come where I was. Ofcourse this state of mind backfires as soon as you are looking for new recruits for your guild. But that is not the point etc I am trying to make. I did the work, so I wanted to be special. Let's leave it at that. Oh yes: I never cared much for alts. I made an alt tho in WOTLK. And I laughed my ass off that in 72 hours I leveled a toon to 80 + made him ICC heroic viable. I thought it was the stupidest thing I have ever seen. But it was handy.

    Now I am very much casual. I am making more alts. I now have 3 alts (Warrior, DK, Druid). Now in this expansion I must say that I am a little frustrated about how everything works. I do those endless quests, get myself to 90 - then do the same dailies etc. Spend enormous amounts of time on my single new alt. Therefore neglecting my other alts. Which means less valor for them and or reputation (if still needed). I can handle 2 characters at once per week and cap the valor. Thats the amount of time I have. So now I am hurting. Sure the new patch is nice tho. 50%/25% off the 5.0/5.1 valor items. This does help. No denying it. And the grand commendations work aswell. But it does suck to maintain "control" over all your characters at the same time. Now I am not saying that you should be able to cap every character you have on that particular realm. Now you have to choose what you find most fun/important to play for/on.

    But more and more I am inclined to agree with the "new" posts about not being able to jump on the same boat with my friends... and raid in the latest tier.

    I know this sounds selfish...: I would like alts to made that jump should the player so choose. New players perhaps shouldn't be able to make that jump. But then LFR for these instances that are still important to those players will have an insane queue.

    So thats not an option either. I think Blizzard still did it right - they chose the best option - and went for content to last. Even to the frustration of players.

    What do you think?

  2. #2
    I fully agree with the that strategy. And they increased the droprates, so catching up should be quite doable.

    The raids take quite some effort/time to develop and it is a real waste of that effort/time if with the arrival of a new patch, they become irrelevant.
    I find it a very logical path to gear, going tier by tier in an expansion.

    Why waste more time/effort in developing new 5 mans which will become irrelevant in no time?

    Now, we all the contented provided to reach the newest content and this frees up time and resources to roll out patches faster.
    I an really impressed with the frequency content is released now. I think this has to do with the fact that no time/effort is wasted.
    Besides the fact that patches are released faster, we also see a lot of more story in-game now, which makes all we do a bit more exiting.

    I am not saying everything is perfect now.... like dailies... I hate the hell out of m, the way it is implemented now... but I see some great advantages in the way they are using their time and resources now.

  3. #3
    Agreed. Not everything is perfect right now. And most likely never will be. But it works - just not optimal for everyone

  4. #4
    I disagree and I don't see the problem with simple removing the rep requirement from the gear. If their not going to make new dungeons as catch up then theirs very little reason they can't simple award 505 gear for or justice points WITHOUT the need to have a rep.

    They listened to a MINORITY of players, a minority of a minority really because actual raiders don't give a shit what I do in my free time. They catered to a tiny minority who had issues that I could do the same content they could and got gear in dungeons. They catered to people with childish attitudes towards this game.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    I disagree and I don't see the problem with simple removing the rep requirement from the gear. If their not going to make new dungeons as catch up then theirs very little reason they can't simple award 505 gear for or justice points WITHOUT the need to have a rep.

    They listened to a MINORITY of players, a minority of a minority really because actual raiders don't give a shit what I do in my free time. They catered to a tiny minority who had issues that I could do the same content they could and got gear in dungeons. They catered to people with childish attitudes towards this game.
    While top 100 and a lot of other people don't care. I am sure people who barely can get into a heroic care about "casuals who with their limited time can have access to the same gearstandard as they have". Some of them probably are childish as you say. But don't think it is a minority. But hey... I don't have the numbers and you don't either and then we can debate wether or not that minority is actually THAT minor.

    I am not saying I disagree btw. But the way you made your post is not really saying anything. I do like your "remove the rep" thing. That would actually help everyone.

  6. #6
    With LFR, the nerf to 5.0 raids, and new dailies that reward 522 items... how much catching assistance do you really need?

    This type of progression is 100% good for the community, weither they know it or not. You say you want to just join your friends and rock out in the newest raid (which, to be fair, isn't available in LFR yet anyhow), but skipping 4 months of content is completely selling yourself short. Heck, that content is ABSOLUTELY beneficial to you right now, why would you skip it?

    Tuesday the first three bosses of Throne are released. So, if you could skip to them and do them next week, you'd be basically done with 'current' content for the week. That's what you want?

    /shrug

    This game is what you put into it, to be honest.

  7. #7
    The LFR catchup mechanic is Blizzard's lazy way out. Before they would implement new dungeons and stories intertwined with them. But I suppose they need all that manpower to make 6 billion dailies so they could call it content until 6.0

  8. #8
    Immortal Destil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    With LFR, the nerf to 5.0 raids, and new dailies that reward 522 items... how much catching assistance do you really need?
    ^This.

    Plus repping up is even easier, along with the fact Valor Cost prices have been signifigantly reduced.

    It's easy to gear up.

    You're probably now going to attack me, those who disagree with me, saying "You don't know that. You're just blindly supporting Blizzard.

    Ahem.

    I got my newly turned 90 Mage, who hit 90 the day before 5.2, from a 442 iLevel to a 489 iLevel within a week.

    47 iLevels from running LFR, doing Heroics, buying Darkmoon Trinkets, crafting gear, buying the reduced Valor Point gear.

    Yeah.

  9. #9
    Elemental Lord Noomz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    Lately on these boards I see a change happening.

    First we had people who said: "OMG why can't Blizzard make all content (of that expansion) relevant?!"
    Now we have people who say: "OMG why do I need to catch up, I want to jump into the fray with my friends the moment I hit 90!!!!"

    So finally Blizzard listened to people who wanted to have all content relevant (cause it was supposed to be a shame of all the work the developers did and players wanted a natural progression, seeing the story, especially if they were new).
    But now people complain that they cannot go to the last instance after a short grind in 5 man heroics....

    Personally:

    I used to be a "very commited/dedicated" raider. And when I was with that mindset, I wanted everyone to be behind me if they stepped into the game late. They needed to do the same "amount of work" as I did to come where I was. Ofcourse this state of mind backfires as soon as you are looking for new recruits for your guild. But that is not the point etc I am trying to make. I did the work, so I wanted to be special. Let's leave it at that. Oh yes: I never cared much for alts. I made an alt tho in WOTLK. And I laughed my ass off that in 72 hours I leveled a toon to 80 + made him ICC heroic viable. I thought it was the stupidest thing I have ever seen. But it was handy.

    Now I am very much casual. I am making more alts. I now have 3 alts (Warrior, DK, Druid). Now in this expansion I must say that I am a little frustrated about how everything works. I do those endless quests, get myself to 90 - then do the same dailies etc. Spend enormous amounts of time on my single new alt. Therefore neglecting my other alts. Which means less valor for them and or reputation (if still needed). I can handle 2 characters at once per week and cap the valor. Thats the amount of time I have. So now I am hurting. Sure the new patch is nice tho. 50%/25% off the 5.0/5.1 valor items. This does help. No denying it. And the grand commendations work aswell. But it does suck to maintain "control" over all your characters at the same time. Now I am not saying that you should be able to cap every character you have on that particular realm. Now you have to choose what you find most fun/important to play for/on.

    But more and more I am inclined to agree with the "new" posts about not being able to jump on the same boat with my friends... and raid in the latest tier.

    I know this sounds selfish...: I would like alts to made that jump should the player so choose. New players perhaps shouldn't be able to make that jump. But then LFR for these instances that are still important to those players will have an insane queue.

    So thats not an option either. I think Blizzard still did it right - they chose the best option - and went for content to last. Even to the frustration of players.

    What do you think?
    It's hard to please everyone. There'll always be complaints.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    While top 100 and a lot of other people don't care. I am sure people who barely can get into a heroic care about "casuals who with their limited time can have access to the same gearstandard as they have". Some of them probably are childish as you say. But don't think it is a minority. But hey... I don't have the numbers and you don't either and then we can debate wether or not that minority is actually THAT minor.

    I am not saying I disagree btw. But the way you made your post is not really saying anything. I do like your "remove the rep" thing. That would actually help everyone.
    I hope it's a minority. If not it would mean that a fairly sizable group of players are effectively children and are behaving as such.

  11. #11
    This isn't just an alt issue, this effects everyone. I do like the new system with needing to do LFR to catch up. I don't mind that a good amount of valor is needed to get gear. I am disappointed that that gear is double or triple gated and that valor is slow to come by for people who cannot commit to a daily grind. By the time you get enough valor or justice to buy something, it is useless. It was much better when you could choose to do heroics during the week when you wanted, up to seven for the bonus.

    Blizzard needs to re-evaluate the queue system again. The incentives were great before, but with fewer alts now because of the difficulty in gearing them it means there are fewer in the system. It takes way too long to get into a raid or 5 man and during that time waiting, you cannot swap characters at all or do a scenario.
    to: preposition; used as a function word to indicate position, connection, extent, relation ~ too: adverb; also, very, excessively, so

  12. #12
    Shouldn't take a new alt that much time to get into ToT with all the speeding up of 5.0 content.
    But you'll still want to reach Honored with GL and Revered with Klaxxi atleast to have something to spend VP on.

    50% valor bonus, 100% rep bonus, reducing prices.. they are encouraging alts without giving them means of directly catching up to your main.
    If you have more than one character (I got 4) you should expect some decline in progress if you choose to focus on all of them at once.
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    Weight lost since 21st of June: 62kg/~136lb

  13. #13
    Pretty much everything I'd have to say has already been mentioned, the only issue I have at the moment is that it's kind of tedious to grind valor. I admit, it was really too easy in cata with chainrunning 7 hcs and you pretty much had it. But I still kind of miss it.

  14. #14
    They are basically throwing ilvl 476 gear at you (honor gear); combine that with the LFR drop rate increase and new means of rep grinding in 5 mans, and you should easily be able to reach ilvl 480 for the new LFR.

    Getting normal raid ready for T15 is harder. I doubt many will be doing that, but then normal mode raiding looks very sickly now anyway. About 11K guilds have downed the first "gimmee" boss in ToT, out of 40+K that raided in T14. Most normal mode raiding guilds aren't ready for T15 normal; I doubt most will continue to try to be normal mode raiding guilds.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  15. #15
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    If not it would mean that a fairly sizable group of players are effectively children and are behaving as such.
    Cynic that I am I've thought this for a very long time. Years even. Temper tantrums everywhere.

    On-topic: Given that this expansion is more like BC in terms of progression than either of the previous two, the catch-up mechanisms available now are far better than anything that was available then. I don't really have a great deal of sympathy with the notion of getting to 90 and then jumping to the end. A relatively straight-forward path to getting there though that doesn't take months is certainly a welcome thing.
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  16. #16
    Personally, I like were things are now. Normal mode raiding seems to flow well between tier 14 and tier 15, and there's certainly no need to be progressed in heroic tier 14 in order to successfully move into 15. On the other side, tier 14 is by no means obselete. It is still a relevant area of content, unlike the transition from tier 12 to 13, when Firelands became completely obselete overnight.

    On top of that, there are enough "catch-up" mechanisms in place that, while you can't go from fresh 90 to tier 15 raider in a week, you won't spend months trying to get their either. As a perfect example, my shaman alt was ~460 resto gear before patch 5.2. Since then I've started gearing him up and he's now ~475 (and I haven't even raiding normal tier 14 yet with him). Between some valor gear, a few more LFR drops and possible normal raiding, I fully expect to have him up to 490 in the next week or so.

    For me, 2-3 weeks to go from fresh 90 to tier 15 ready is a good balance. Old content is still relevant and you don't get to skip over it completely. At the same time, you can still get into current tier raiding pretty quickly. I'm sure others feel differently and would like to be able to hit 90 and be raiding the current tier 2 days later, and there are those who would prefer it take a month or so to catch up. That's their opinion, but mine is that things are looking good right now.

  17. #17
    I think the current system strikes a pretty good balance. I'd like the rep requirements to be removed, but that's how I felt about them when the gear was current as well. You have to give people some way to catch up, or you'll never be able to recruit new raiders for the last tier. On the flip side, if they can catch up too easily, everyone ends up with an army of alts in the same gear as people who raided for months to get it.

  18. #18
    Stood in the Fire
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    I think they need to find a better balance than historically. You should have to do earlier content to get what is needed to do later content (because otherwise finding a group is impossible, and the content feels really cheap even if you do), but it also shouldn't be the mind-numbing grind it was when it was "cutting edge".

    It seems like they're wanting to do more stuff like that too, because they're not putting all raid gear to justice points level when it's no longer "top dog" (meaning you still have to do the same thing you would have before to get the points) but they also made them cheaper (meaning less grinding out that stuff than before). The problem is that nobody's going to play progressively with that model (or at least very few people). They're going to save up doing the easiest possible content and buy the best right away (because why would you spend points on something you'll replace when you can spend those same points on something "top of the line" and why do something hard when the rewards for easier stuff are just as good?).

    I'd like to see raid gear with reputation requirements to purchase, but that reputation be gained exclusively through quests to kill raid bosses. You killed a boss in raid tier A? Turn in the quest for them and get enough reputation to unlock buying your shoulders for tier A. Kill another? Now you can get gloves. The valor requirements for that gear would be cut dramatically when the tier isn't the top anymore, so you can blow through the stuff and get the reputation to quickly buy the gear and get caught up, but you still have to go through there quick to get the rep. The top tier, being more expensive, would require not only boss kills, but valor farming to buy the set.

    That way people are largely doing the content at roughly intended gear levels, people can get caught up, and older content still has a purpose.
    Last edited by Crym; 2013-03-11 at 07:03 PM.

  19. #19
    Old content needs to be optional.

    You cant throw the leftovers to the newcomers and pretend that they are happy with it.

    The current content is the one launched last, not the whole expansion. Guilds doing 2 years of Karazan was BAD, really bad and should not be a goal.

    There need to be effective, not heavy RNG dependant system for catching up.

    Those that were here before had the advantage of months of months of having FUN, and they will have better gear anyway.

    MoP is a big fail in the direction of catching up mechanics.

  20. #20
    The only thing i would like to see changed is the Valor from dungeons like it used to be yes there is a billion ways to earn valor now but me personally I have limited time I can get on I know i should quit my job so I can get more time to play through and enjoy the content right.... sorry not what I'm posting about here I'm fine with going through the content at a slower pace I don't have time to be dedicated and if i get to experience the old content through catch up awesome I'm fine with just doing LFR at least i get to see the the content but honestly i wish I could grind out my weekly valor in one day like i was able to do in Cata. I have barely run dungeons this Xpac cause it's like oh whats that heroic gear is worthless well i guess i have to choose between lfr or rep grinding today get maybe quarter of my weekly valor. The dungeons have a little more appeal now that i get some bonus rep but I think i would enjoy going back into and grinding them if they seemed like a worthwhile expenditure of time for the most part even though at times I am frustrated with trying to gear i think if they just did the one change of making dungeon grinding something worthwile again i could get my valor capped i would feel more motivated to grind rep so that i can now use my accumulated valor to purchase gear. Right now I feel LFR is my best option and I have not been having luck with drops. Hopefully people get what I am trying to rant on here I don't want everything given to me but I also want Valor as a realistic option for those that can't dedicate to the game.

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