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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Pengalor View Post

    Uh, I've raided both and I find 25 man far easier, much more room for error. The only harder part about 25 man is keeping more people playing and raiding but it's not like 10 man doesn't have the exact same problem.
    have we been clearing the same instances? 10s have far greater leniency in mechanics because they are often tuned for less then ideal raid comps. 25s however are not immune to poor raid comps, particularly in the mid range, i raided with 5 shadow priests and no warlocks in cata, my current raid doesn't have any kind of warrior for skull banner and no source for the spell haste buff. 25 man much more complicated due to the greater number of moving parts, more complicated tank management, and greater spacial issues.

    both formats deal with burn out and difficulty with raider retention, but its a lot harder to keep a roster of 28-35 players happy, organized, and getting along with each other then it is a roster of 12-17 people. the staunch large format raiders from vanilla/bc/wolk are slowly quitting, either burning out for good or growing out of the game, and the new generation of players of the caliber to replace them are not interested in running 25s.

    10s don't need any more loot then they get, if anything they should get even less loot then they currently do. with both formats dropping the same ilevel loot there is really nothing to incentivise 25 man raids, thunderforged doesn't even incentivise 25 because 10 man get thunderforged too, but giving 25 higher ilevel loot would kill 10s and force people to run 25s ( i'm ok with killing 10s, but most people are not. its ok to force me into 10s with logistical issues, but not ok to force you into 25s with gear issues? fairness? what is it?). if your progression is decent, baring really really atrocious rng (despite having killed will on normal and heroic many times i've never seen the dps plate legs off it, but my friend's 10 man raid has gotten them pretty much every week) you will eventually get your piece.

    and is loot really why we raid? if your only driving force behind raiding is your ilevel epeen then you should probably reconsider your priorities. loot certainly isn't why i raid, i raid because i enjoy organizing and problem solving, i enjoy the epic experience of vanquishing evil with an epic band of heros. i can't get either expirence in a 10 man.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    This is also very true. The current 10 man guild I am in have a roster of 11 people. The last 25 man guild in was over 35 people, closer to 40 people.
    Nice anecdote. I have one that is exactly opposite - my previous 10 man guild had a roster of 14, while my last 25 man guild (which was during ICC) had a roster of 29.

    Basically my point is, you have no real evidence that 25s field a comparatively larger roster than 10 mans.

    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    have we been clearing the same instances? 10s have far greater leniency in mechanics because they are often tuned for less then ideal raid comps.
    This has not been true for MoP. Just see the recent hotfixes if you want evidence - 25s are tuned to require 3x the dps because they have 16-17 dps, while 10s have 5-6 dps.

    By the way, Paragon has been on council for 9 hours now. Are you still so sure 10s are easier than 25s?
    Last edited by Maelstrom51; 2013-03-13 at 08:16 PM.

  3. #163
    the issue is - the mechanics engage a similar number of players on 10 and 25-man; however this makes a much higher percentage of people unavailable to do what they are supposed to do in 10-man, then in 25-man... and if those people are for example all 2-3 healers, it's a wipe... it's much less possible for all the 6-7 healers in 25-man to be engaged by kiting ice lasers, running out of poison balls or kiting away nasty debuffs

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by kilj View Post
    That's funny.... Last time I checked 25's have progressed further in tot than 10's.
    It's funny that the top end guilds should be the representation of the raiding community as a whole.
    I mean EU only just opened today for heroic, and not all raid groups clear 12/12 in a week.

    Overall from what Blizzard see's there is a higher number of 10 mans then 25's, and taking the first week and a day of clears of ToT shouldn't represent how the community is spread. (especially with some guilds cheating on WoWProgress and killing on 10 and then somehow getting 25 man credit)

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    By the way, Paragon has been on council for 9 hours now. Are you still so sure 10s are easier than 25s?
    Best guild in the world, 9hours on 1 boss. Enough said, debate over and everyone can go home.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Rasar View Post
    Best guild in the world, 9hours on 1 boss. Enough said, debate over and everyone can go home.
    Yeah it does appear that 10m council was harder, but not due to any intentional design... the 25m guildes are apparently cheesing a mechanic. They will probably fix it eventually, but they said they won't do adjustments in the middle of a raid week as it effects the "race." One fight having a clear oversight where you can cheese something is not grounds for claiming one setting is harder than the other overall.

  7. #167
    Just stop complaining. Please. Let 25man raiders have the added incentives for the additional troubles they go through and play your 10mans and tell yourself you're playing the harder raid mode all you want.

  8. #168
    I think that the issue with loot would be solved if Blizzard incorporated "Smarter" distribution in 10-man raids. I'm not saying that only gear that players need should drop, but something along the lines of what LFR does. When a boss dies, the loot distributor should look at the raid comp and should pick accordingly. So if there are no Mail Agi wearers in the raid, then that gear shouldn't drop. What does everyone think about that idea?

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Ctrl View Post
    I think that the issue with loot would be solved if Blizzard incorporated "Smarter" distribution in 10-man raids. I'm not saying that only gear that players need should drop, but something along the lines of what LFR does. When a boss dies, the loot distributor should look at the raid comp and should pick accordingly. So if there are no Mail Agi wearers in the raid, then that gear shouldn't drop. What does everyone think about that idea?
    It doesn't solve anything since it still will drop, and drop, and drop, and drop that tokens for your one and only shaman while all your warlocks, priests and paladins will be bashing their heads into walls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Just stop complaining. Please. Let 25man raiders have the added incentives for the additional troubles they go through and play your 10mans and tell yourself you're playing the harder raid mode all you want.
    Lol, isn't it a bit unfair to get bonus for playing an obvious easier mode?
    You know, it's not 10 people raiders who started that crying wagon for having a bonus items due to active recruting issues and hard decisions about how much owls you need to take in raid to cheat boss mechanics.
    Last edited by l33t; 2013-03-13 at 10:53 PM.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Just stop complaining. Please. Let 25man raiders have the added incentives for the additional troubles they go through and play your 10mans and tell yourself you're playing the harder raid mode all you want.
    oh please world rank 10181 just be quiet... Additional troubles oh yeah its soooooooooo much trouble getting 15 more people

    10 will always be harder thats a fact and now even more since youre getting spammed with thunderforged on 25man outgearing it even faster ... hf with your little easy mode 25mans

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Just stop complaining. Please. Let 25man raiders have the added incentives for the additional troubles they go through and play your 10mans and tell yourself you're playing the harder raid mode all you want.
    Some people will just never get it. On the very cutting edge 25 mans are harder because of the logistics issues and also because of how encounters are tuned ... but for the average players that aren't min-maxing to an extreme, 10-mans are much harder. When you're not attempting to be the best of the best or going for server firsts or whatever, it's a lot easier to slack off in a 25 man than it is in a 10 man. For the average raid leader, 25-man logistics = total nightmare. So is getting a good composition for a 10-man, just less so. For the average raider however, 25-man is a much smoother walk in the park than 10-man.

  12. #172
    Not sure I agree on adding the extra piece of loot, they would have to change the system somehow though.
    I don't enjoy seeing our Holy Paladin run around with an Inscription off-hand, just because the system us F*. Something has to change. I realise that RNG will always be in the game, but it works both ways. I have friends who have seen nothing but that shield from Garajal, which is just as sad for them.
    No Envy, No Fear


  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by ripslyme View Post
    oh please world rank 10181 just be quiet... Additional troubles oh yeah its soooooooooo much trouble getting 15 more people

    10 will always be harder thats a fact and now even more since youre getting spammed with thunderforged on 25man outgearing it even faster ... hf with your little easy mode 25mans
    Uh...West 125th. Us 92nd. And that's including 10mans as well.
    It's not just about getting additional people (which is a giant chore as is). It's about how much extra work raid leaders/GMs have to do in a heroic mode setting. 10man fight? Just need one interrupter, maybe a backup. 25man? Need 3 interrupters, with 3 more backups. Or 3 person interrupt rotation with ranged interrupts on Heroic Protectors. I can go on and on about how much additional work logistics and mechanics add on 25man heroic but you clearly aren't in my league.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    It doesn't solve anything since it still will drop, and drop, and drop, and drop that tokens for your one and only shaman while all your warlocks, priests and paladins will be bashing their heads into walls.
    Oh man, don't remind me. Back in DS, our shaman had his heroic 4pc for all 3 specs before some people finished their 4pc for one.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    It doesn't solve anything since it still will drop, and drop, and drop, and drop that tokens for your one and only shaman while all your warlocks, priests and paladins will be bashing their heads into walls.
    25s are not immune to this. they get shitty loot and disenchant gear just as much as 10s do. i have no end of examples of 25s being stuck with terrible gear because of terrible rng ( see my personal dps plate pants story above) just like i've got stories of 10s with amazing rng.


    Lol, isn't it a bit unfair to get bonus for playing an obvious easier mode?
    so you agree? 10 man raiders should get less loot for doing an obviously easier mode? because thats what 25 man raiders are saying. at best the encounters are balanced (and at worst 9 times out of 10 25 man encounter is harder) but there is no way you can ever say 10 man is harder in terms of raw logistics compared to 25 man.

    logistics isn't just the matter of keeping your entire raid flasked/potted/fed and keeping recruitment up. there also making sure everyone has experience with every mechanic, or being able to coordinate 6 person interrupt rotations. making sure all your healers are coordinating with each other for their cooldowns, as well as their tanks and their offspec raid cooldowns. so many more moving parts in 25s that 10s can't even compare.

    whats more 90% of 10 man raiders have no basis for claiming 10 man is harder because they've not done 25s. where as 90% of 25 man raiders WILL run 10s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crummy View Post
    Not sure I agree on adding the extra piece of loot, they would have to change the system somehow though.
    I don't enjoy seeing our Holy Paladin run around with an Inscription off-hand, just because the system us F*. Something has to change. I realise that RNG will always be in the game, but it works both ways. I have friends who have seen nothing but that shield from Garajal, which is just as sad for them.
    holy paladins in no way NEED a shield, its aesthetics that they prefer using one. the feng offhand is incredibly well itemized for them, so is the inscription offhand. if your progression is decent and you can consistently kill bosses you will eventually get your items. occasionally you get really shitty rng ( stupid. dps. plate.pants) and then you just have to suck it up. that kind of terrible rng happens to both formats.

    i'm starting to get the impression this is all about random pugs who kill maybe one heroic and don't get the item they want off it, and then because they have no hope of ever killing that heroic ever again, cry about it.
    " I need a sec, my wrists hurt from spamming slam so hard. Playing cleave vs cleave is tough stuff guys"

  16. #176
    10 man is already much easier than 25. 10 has a much lower learning curve and half the things the devastate a 25 man raid barely tickle on 10. They don't need more loot. If you have a balanced raid then loot should rarely be getting de'd until it has dropped several times. 25 man is also streaky at times on items. Our hunter never saw the bracers from first boss in vaults on heroic the entire raiding tier.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Khargol View Post
    Our hunter never saw the bracers from first boss in vaults on heroic the entire raiding tier.
    Meanwhile, our holy paladin didn't see plate healing bracers drop starting at the beginning of tier 11 (BWD/Bastion/Throne) until we'd been farming heroic Deathwing for a few weeks. It was something around 55 boss kills that could've dropped bracers for him but never did. If it had been some other slot he would've essentially gone the entire expansion with a blue in the slot. Fortunately, that was a slot he could at least fill in with the valor bracers starting in tier 12. 33 Majordomo Staghelm kills recorded on my druid between regular and heroic, I never once saw a Jaws of Defeat. Streaks can happen in 25, but it feels like they're far more common in 10 and it's going to be even worse with the size of some of these loot tables.

    Personally I don't know that giving an extra piece of loot is the answer though. Loot tables should probably be thinned a bit. Last tier there were eight different cloth belts. Eight. Why? I couldn't tell you. Apparently there just needed to be one with every stat combination possible. (Queue someone pointing out all the possible stat combinations that weren't available)
    Last edited by Emerya; 2013-03-14 at 08:07 AM.

  18. #178
    Any fight with interrupts and dispelling is horror for 10m. Bring the class, not the player.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Brakthir View Post
    Uh...West 125th. Us 92nd. And that's including 10mans as well.
    It's not just about getting additional people (which is a giant chore as is). It's about how much extra work raid leaders/GMs have to do in a heroic mode setting. 10man fight? Just need one interrupter, maybe a backup. 25man? Need 3 interrupters, with 3 more backups. Or 3 person interrupt rotation with ranged interrupts on Heroic Protectors. I can go on and on about how much additional work logistics and mechanics add on 25man heroic but you clearly aren't in my league.
    lol, you are clueless. Council 10 man requires 4 interrupters on 10man, 5 if you actually want to get them all. Horrididon requires a shitload of interrupts + stupid amounts of dispells wich 2 healers can never keep up with. 25man raiding only has the logistic disadvantage for the few people that run the show. 99% of 25man raiders currently are getting better loot, more loot for a much easier job. I agree in the past 25 man encounters were usually harder. But this tier the numbers are wrong. If you are around 500 itemlvl or lower, most fights from horridon require everything a 10man has to offer to survive, while 25man cheeses through everything.
    Last edited by Miscam; 2013-03-14 at 09:02 AM.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by kosechi View Post
    so you agree? 10 man raiders should get less loot for doing an obviously easier mode? because thats what 25 man raiders are saying. at best the encounters are balanced (and at worst 9 times out of 10 25 man encounter is harder) but there is no way you can ever say 10 man is harder in terms of raw logistics compared to 25 man.
    logistics isn't just the matter of keeping your entire raid flasked/potted/fed and keeping recruitment up. there also making sure everyone has experience with every mechanic, or being able to coordinate 6 person interrupt rotations. making sure all your healers are coordinating with each other for their cooldowns, as well as their tanks and their offspec raid cooldowns. so many more moving parts in 25s that 10s can't even compare.

    [skip]

    i'm starting to get the impression this is all about random pugs who kill maybe one heroic and don't get the item they want off it, and then because they have no hope of ever killing that heroic ever again, cry about it.
    You can imagine yourself whatever you want. Reality shows us the truth, and the truth is: look at the best 10 man guild in the world, Paragon. And guess what? They've been wiping on council 10 for nine freaking hours. Nine. Freaking. Hours. NINE. Yes indeed, it looks like 25s are so much harder lol.
    I personally would like if 10 vs 25 would be balanced not in the way Blizz do it. Nowadays it is balanced in the awful way of "first boss is easy everywhere, last boss is easy everywhere, and 80% of middle is hard for 10, because of stupid ton of cc/interrupts". Do you really understand that all your fabulous logistics problems in 25 is really nothing compared to situations where we in 10m raid have to kill the same number of adds, interrupt the same number of spells, beat the same enrage timers - while having three times less damage dealers, three times less healers and almost three times less people at all? Would you ever understand that sometimes whatever you do you'll wipe just because you don't have enough hands to deal with mechanics balanced for 25 ppl? I was RLing in 25 back in WotLK/Cata pre-DS, and I can tell you all the difference. You don't even understant that your super duper healer cooldown problems in 25 aren't even exist, because you have freaking TON of people. You easilly can make for example all your shamans have HTT, and when things get rough, you can command them to chain HTTs and just rip through mechanics easily. Try doing that in 10, where every cooldown really counts. Healing in 25 is also a joke overhealing zergfest. Try doing the same in 10, where you almost everytime do that idiotic trauma freaking HoT healing because you're running it with two healers, because you lack dps to kill all that 25m stuff with just five dps (not to mention "balance" issues, where in 10 ppl you have boss skill hit for 80k/ppl, while in 25 it doesn't hit for twice the 10, since they usually balanced for six healers, no; it hits 25 for 100k/ppl). DDing in 10 also sucks because any fight with adds mechanics turns into running here and there dodging void zones, interrupting focus casts there, and again run there kill add run here interrupt run there bla bla.
    Anyway, i'm quite sure that even if you manage to read this, you won't want to understand. Its hard to wear off a red tinted glasses of elitist super hard raid format.

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