should 10 man raids have 1 extra piece of loot?

[Tingol]

You havent finished a single instance last tier on normal. You only have 1 kill on half of the bosses (very few kills in total) and 485-490 ilvl seems low to you? I'm sorry but for that number of kills your item leves should not be higher

[Deleted]

If you give 1 extra piece of loot to 10 man, why would anybody do 25 man?

because I heard they like it so much? or maybe because Blizzard handed to you thunderforged gear that is 6ilvl higher? pick one.

[Seriss]

It's depressing to disenchant 50% of your loot because it's agi-mail or a rogue-dagger or spirit-cloth on the day when your only priest isn't available for raid

[eranwe]

We'd kill this week 5 bosses and we had DE 4 pieces of loot. Considering that Council didn't drop tier, we only got (without charms) 5 useful items. I know that we have the extra loot from the coins, but maybe RNG loot in 10man is to RNG. I love the idea of adjusting the loot table to the raidcomp, but it can be easily exploited, so, dropping 3 items, choose 2, its a good alternative. (in 25 man, drop 1-2 more, and choose).

[Hoofey]

Its more like 1.5 items per boss in 10mans because of raid setups which ends up with stuff getting disenchanted.

"Oh, just get a proper raid setup then"
Not everyone has that luxury.

Hell, you could even say that the 10 man raids doesnt support the huge loot tables the new bosses currently have.

[l33t]

If you give 1 extra piece of loot to 10 man, why would anybody do 25 man?

Because people said they love 25 and would raid 25 anyway? Nowadays it is not balanced, 25 is plain overrewarding format. Basically anyone who raid 25 is swimming in loot while in 10 ppl you get one piece of loot every five bosses, something like that. Since 25 is much easier this tier, the gearing speed makes it even more easier, which leads to even more easy loot, which leads to even more easy kills, etc, etc. Its unfair, and Blizz sucks with decisions like that.

[barackohmama]

If you think of raids as separated groups it doesnt make sense for 10 man to drop extra items.

10 man (2 groups - 2 drops)
25 man (5 groups - 5 drops)

look at the groups separatly its the same 1/5 chance of possible upgrade. The difference is that a wrong item can screw a 10 man group more than a wrong item in a 25 man group. But at the same time getting one upgrade 1/10, in 10 man makes more difference to the entire raid than it does for 1/25 players in 25 man.

So basically it evens out. 1/10 is always more than 1/25. but both for the good and for the bad. Increasing the droprate would be unfair and illogical.

[Lethora]

Don't forget the fact that 25man can get 3x of the same item from the boss. Everyone loves their spirit plate and rogue daggers when you have 1 holy paladin and 1 rogue in 25man raid.

[Deleted]

Don't forget the fact that 25man can get 3x of the same item from the boss. Everyone loves their spirit plate and rogue daggers when you have 1 holy paladin and 1 rogue in 25man raid.

We didnt have nor rogue nor holy paladin nor any shaman. 2 bosses with loot completely d/ed 4 more with offspecs. When u gona have 100% loot from boss not used on 25man? Out of nearly 30 items looted some ppl didnt get a single piece.

With 20 items in the loot table of the bosses now, the 10 man loot will need something like normal item tokens to be able to gear. Last expansion i was raiding 25, after 10 weeks we had 14 conquerer users with 4 set on offspecs. We barely geared mainspecs in 10 weeks on 10 man.

The best option i read about it in the thread was. Have drops be based on BOTH specs played by players. Feels very demoralizing when a boss drops 1h sword 3 weeks in a row and u have only a tank to use it.

[kosechi]

Lei Shi is probably a terrible example, easiest boss all tier.

in my experiences 10 mans have killed everything except maybe horridon in half the pulls as 25 mans.

every 10 man raider i've ever talked to to who claims 25s are easier then 10s has not set foot in a 25 man since wolk. they have NO basis to judge if they are harder or not because they haven't experienced them. most 25 man raiders WILL however run content on 10 man, and can compare it to their experience on 25 man.

the fact that 10s are asking more more loot is insulting, the gear to raider ratio is only marginally weighed in favor of 25s ( and look for all the good that did as more people flock to the easier format) and rng can screw a 25 man raid just as easily as it can screw a 10 man raid.

[Stommped]

Since 25 is much easier this tier, the gearing speed makes it even more easier, which leads to even more easy loot, which leads to even more easy kills, etc, etc. Its unfair, and Blizz sucks with decisions like that.

Damn 25 is much easier this tier? Thanks for letting us know the difficulty of some of the end tier bosses when several of them were tested on a very limited basis and the last two were not tested at all. Is there anything else you can foresee in your crystal ball?

And by saying this tier you make it seem like 25 man wasn't easier in every other tier. Don't you want to add something to the effect of "10 man has been harder every tier because if 1 person dies in 10 man it's 10% of your raid and in 25 man it's only 4% of your raid"?

[Deleted]

Make it 20, just to be sure everyone gets loot. Oh and Off-spec can get loot too then

Just drop the entire friggin' loot table for said boss. Twice. otherwise 2 people might fight over an item.

Seriously, the amount of loot is fine. There needs to be a reason to clear a raid every week, otherwise you could just sit there, kill all the bosses once and wait for the next content patch...

[nimryas]

I just came up with this idea and havent given it much thoughts as to con's and pro's but, wouldnt it be so much easier and better if (for instance in a 10man) when a boss has been killed everybody rolls a 'dice'. The 2 highest players would be eligible to pick something from the bosses loot table, they can also pass down their win to number three on the list and so forth. This way would prevent shitty events like farming a boss beyond a new raid patch just to get that BiS item or whatever.

This might not work for pugs, so I suggest that the group in its entirely can vote for which kind of loot distribution system to use, and to use the method i described above it would need 100% vote for the system, so an all guildies group would be able to use this system. Still lots of loopholes and shit..

[Seriss]

in my experiences 10 mans have killed everything except maybe horridon in half the pulls as 25 mans.

every 10 man raider i've ever talked to to who claims 25s are easier then 10s has not set foot in a 25 man since wolk. they have NO basis to judge if they are harder or not because they haven't experienced them. most 25 man raiders WILL however run content on 10 man, and can compare it to their experience on 25 man.

the fact that 10s are asking more more loot is insulting, the gear to raider ratio is only marginally weighed in favor of 25s ( and look for all the good that did as more people flock to the easier format) and rng can screw a 25 man raid just as easily as it can screw a 10 man raid.

Hello! Former 25-man raid here. Nefarian 25 server first etc. Now that that is out of the way... Holy hell, was that crap annoying on 10-man. The entirety of T11 was at least equal to 25-man difficulty - with Al'akir being the one big outlier due to space issues. T12 felt easier for me on 10-man, but I had 25-man gear levels when we cleared it during T13, so I'm probably not one to say "lol, 10-mans are roflcopter" because... I overgeared them by that point. T13's difficulties lay in different aspects depending on whether you looked at 10 oder 25-man. Spine/Madness are perfect examples of this. Spine easier on 10-man. Madness harder on 10-man.

So, been there, done that. On various alts.

In MoP, the difficulty of 10-mans shot up significantly. Whenever you have abilities that target random people - bam! 10 man gets instagibs (MSV's Garajal, and currently Council's Sand Bolts when interrupts are on CD); whenever you have abilities that require some people to do something: half your raid is busy on 10-man. Heck, at Megaera, you tend to have 2 healers constantly kiting frostbeams and cinders. Bah. Annoying thing.

If I hadn't founded the guild that I am in now with friends and if we hadn't decided to go 10-man this expansion, the dozen of people that we are, I'd still be raiding 25-man, and I would have an easier time while Healing Rain afking (a bit of an exaggeration, but you know how these things work ^^).

10-mans are long since past the point of when they were a laughing stock for 25-man raiders. Seriously. Why can't we, after all this time, and after all that we have seen, not finally admit that both raid sizes have their difficulties and their advantages? In the end, it probably evens out. But I, playing the main that I play, I most certainly would have a much easier time in a 25-man.

[Deleted]

I just came up with this idea and havent given it much thoughts as to con's and pro's but, wouldnt it be so much easier and better if (for instance in a 10man) when a boss has been killed everybody rolls a 'dice'. The 2 highest players would be eligible to pick something from the bosses loot table, they can also pass down their win to number three on the list and so forth. This way would prevent shitty events like farming a boss beyond a new raid patch just to get that BiS item or whatever.

This might not work for pugs, so I suggest that the group in its entirely can vote for which kind of loot distribution system to use, and to use the method i described above it would need 100% vote for the system, so an all guildies group would be able to use this system. Still lots of loopholes and shit..

So basically, 10 man guilds get to pick which 2 players get loot and those 2 players can pick any loot they want from the loot table?

How about, no?

There needs to be RNG in loot, simple as that.

[Arainie]

People are forgetting one rather big factor in the gearing up debate between 10 and 25.

A 10man guild normally has 11-13 raiders, let's average at 12. That means 120% of a full raid group has to be geared up to keep the guild going.
A 25man guild normally has 32-34 raiders, let's average at 33. That means 33/25 = 132% of a full raid group has to be geared up to keep the guild going.
That the loot drops may sometimes be more awkward in 10m is true since you have a harder time filling all different gear types, but keep in mind that 25 man groups tend to have tank plate and off pieces, intellect plate and intellect mail in abundance that ends up being disenchanted when half of the team haven't even seen the first item. Adding the extra raid members on the bench to gear up (12% additional benchers) on top of that and I think we're pretty much good on advantages and disadvantages.

IMO the gearing curve is about equal in 10man and 25man for the guild as a whole, while certain individuals may suffer more in 10man while others feel like it's raining loot. The one exception might be tier tokens, but to keep that on an even level you'd have to increase it to 2/5 tokens, otherwise 10man teams would be fully decked out in tier while 25man guilds have gotten half way through their raiding team.

[Deleted]

People are forgetting one rather big factor in the gearing up debate between 10 and 25.

A 10man guild normally has 11-13 raiders, let's average at 12. That means 120% of a full raid group has to be geared up to keep the guild going.
A 25man guild normally has 32-34 raiders, let's average at 33. That means 33/25 = 132% of a full raid group has to be geared up to keep the guild going.
That the loot drops may sometimes be more awkward in 10m is true since you have a harder time filling all different gear types, but keep in mind that 25 man groups tend to have tank plate and off pieces, intellect plate and intellect mail in abundance that ends up being disenchanted when half of the team haven't even seen the first item. Adding the extra raid members on the bench to gear up (12% additional benchers) on top of that and I think we're pretty much good on advantages and disadvantages.

This is also very true. The current 10 man guild I am in have a roster of 11 people. The last 25 man guild in was over 35 people, closer to 40 people.

[kosechi]

10-mans are long since past the point of when they were a laughing stock for 25-man raiders. Seriously. Why can't we, after all this time, and after all that we have seen, not finally admit that both raid sizes have their difficulties and their advantages? In the end, it probably evens out. But I, playing the main that I play, I most certainly would have a much easier time in a 25-man.

because 25 man raiders get rewarded less for what is often more work. at best the encounters are balanced between the two formats, at worst 25 is harder.

this doesn't take into account the massive logistical issues and higher burn out rate that 25s have to contend with. asking for more loot on a format that takes less work ( encounter balance aside) is insulting. and throwing loot at the problem of the floundering 25 man format ( lolthunderforged) isn't going to solve it. 25s need more logistical support and things that incentivise 25s with out damaging 10s ( greater valor per boss, reduced cost feasts/pots/flasks/enchants, unique item skins) they take more work to maintain and run, and they are not rewarded nearly enough for it. and 10 mans want MORE? are you kidding me?

i've raided 10 and 25 man content for three xpacs now. i can say with absolute certainty that nine times out of ten, the encounters are harder on 25 man. 10 man raiders who do 10 man content have no basis for saying one format is harder then the other because they haven't done them on both formats, where as 25 man raiders WILL do them in both formats.

[Pengalor]

It's depressing to disenchant 50% of your loot because it's agi-mail or a rogue-dagger or spirit-cloth on the day when your only priest isn't available for raid

Indeed, it's a running joke in my guild that whenever we do Stone Guards the agi dagger will always drop (despite not having a single rogue raider). I would say this, let 25 man keep the Thunderforged boost type of thing, make it so 10-man has a much higher chance to drop loot specifically for the classes in the raid. This would fix the main issue with 10 man looting: the lack of compensation for various comps.

---------- Post added 2013-03-13 at 11:56 AM ----------

because 25 man raiders get rewarded less for what is often more work. at best the encounters are balanced between the two formats, at worst 25 is harder.

this doesn't take into account the massive logistical issues and higher burn out rate that 25s have to contend with. asking for more loot on a format that takes less work ( encounter balance aside) is insulting. and throwing loot at the problem of the floundering 25 man format ( lolthunderforged) isn't going to solve it. 25s need more logistical support and things that incentivise 25s with out damaging 10s ( greater valor per boss, reduced cost feasts/pots/flasks/enchants, unique item skins) they take more work to maintain and run, and they are not rewarded nearly enough for it. and 10 mans want MORE? are you kidding me?

i've raided 10 and 25 man content for three xpacs now. i can say with absolute certainty that nine times out of ten, the encounters are harder on 25 man. 10 man raiders who do 10 man content have no basis for saying one format is harder then the other because they haven't done them on both formats, where as 25 man raiders WILL do them in both formats.

Uh, I've raided both and I find 25 man far easier, much more room for error. The only harder part about 25 man is keeping more people playing and raiding but it's not like 10 man doesn't have the exact same problem.

[kosechi]

Uh, I've raided both and I find 25 man far easier, much more room for error. The only harder part about 25 man is keeping more people playing and raiding but it's not like 10 man doesn't have the exact same problem.

have we been clearing the same instances? 10s have far greater leniency in mechanics because they are often tuned for less then ideal raid comps. 25s however are not immune to poor raid comps, particularly in the mid range, i raided with 5 shadow priests and no warlocks in cata, my current raid doesn't have any kind of warrior for skull banner and no source for the spell haste buff. 25 man much more complicated due to the greater number of moving parts, more complicated tank management, and greater spacial issues.

both formats deal with burn out and difficulty with raider retention, but its a lot harder to keep a roster of 28-35 players happy, organized, and getting along with each other then it is a roster of 12-17 people. the staunch large format raiders from vanilla/bc/wolk are slowly quitting, either burning out for good or growing out of the game, and the new generation of players of the caliber to replace them are not interested in running 25s.

10s don't need any more loot then they get, if anything they should get even less loot then they currently do. with both formats dropping the same ilevel loot there is really nothing to incentivise 25 man raids, thunderforged doesn't even incentivise 25 because 10 man get thunderforged too, but giving 25 higher ilevel loot would kill 10s and force people to run 25s ( i'm ok with killing 10s, but most people are not. its ok to force me into 10s with logistical issues, but not ok to force you into 25s with gear issues? fairness? what is it?). if your progression is decent, baring really really atrocious rng (despite having killed will on normal and heroic many times i've never seen the dps plate legs off it, but my friend's 10 man raid has gotten them pretty much every week) you will eventually get your piece.

and is loot really why we raid? if your only driving force behind raiding is your ilevel epeen then you should probably reconsider your priorities. loot certainly isn't why i raid, i raid because i enjoy organizing and problem solving, i enjoy the epic experience of vanquishing evil with an epic band of heros. i can't get either expirence in a 10 man.