should 10 man raids have 1 extra piece of loot?

[iskla]

Personally I don't know that giving an extra piece of loot is the answer though. Loot tables should probably be thinned a bit. Last tier there were eight different cloth belts. Eight. Why? I couldn't tell you. Apparently there just needed to be one with every stat combination possible. (Queue someone pointing out all the possible stat combinations that weren't available)

Yeah, I agree that the actual problem seems to be the size of the loot tables, and it's being lost amongst all the 10 v 25 squabbling and bitching. Streamlining them would benefit 10 mans more than 25s without unfairly advantaging them the way extra drops or 'take your pick from the boss's loot table' solutions would.

[Hunter Extraordinaire]

If 10 mans had 3 pieces of loot then 25 mans would need 7-8... So the question is: where does the "does x difficulty need more loot" question stop coming?

[l33t]

If 10 mans had 3 pieces of loot then 25 mans would need 7-8... So the question is: where does the "does x difficulty need more loot" question stop coming?

Lol no, noone needs a bonus loot items, not 10, not 25. What 10 needs is more smart loot drops. Or, maybe, it is time to move into declassed tokens, so there will be no situations when shammy token drops 18 times while priest token drops 1 time.

[Hunter Extraordinaire]

Lol no, noone needs a bonus loot items, not 10, not 25. What 10 needs is more smart loot drops. Or, maybe, it is time to move into declassed tokens, so there will be no situations when shammy token drops 18 times while priest token drops 1 time.

Unclassed loot tokens...now that I agree with!

[Prison]

I think 3 items should drop but only 2 can be assigned to the raid.

[AeneasBK]

Really a solution could be just to tune 25's as easier than 10's deliberately. Theres the incentive without having to award better/more gear. You can progress faster, clear more bosses each week because they are slightly easier, but the raid gets comparitively less gear from it as a result. Go back to giving 25 man 5 bits of loot.

[Miscam]

I think the best solution (And the most fun) is to have 3 items dropping from 10man, and you can only loot 2 of them. The problem 25man and 10man raiders both acknowledge is that the loottables are simply to big, and this would atleast take abit of RNG away. Also class bound tokens are out of date tbh. Making them universal would be great for both sizes.

[Battlebeard]

In my opinion, 10man should drop 2 items, 25man should drop 5 items, 5man should drop 1 item.

1 item per every 5 member you have then, most logical.

[jaytheo]

I think 3 items should drop but only 2 can be assigned to the raid.

Sounds good in theory, but could you imagine the shit storm it would create "Why are you not giving out X item, I need more than that guy needs Y item"

[klausistklaus]

I'd love to see a solution for niche items that only one specc/class can use, it's really disappointing having to d/e several daggers/guns/ with no rogue/hunter present in your roster while the very same boss could drop BiS trinkets. I remember killing Sinestra about 20 times till we got at least one trinket to drop and sharding that leather spirit belt week after week after week.

Or what's with items you only can use once? Eg spirit items on leather/mail/plate, there's barely use for more than one player in a wide spreaded 10M raid - Sunmote-style exchange currency from Sunwell could help here and would shrinken the Loottables tremendously. Another real pain: tokens. We have a very bad destribution with 2/4/6 per token, thus after 2-3 drops of one type we can not use them again even for offspeccs and all future drops equals to 50 gold to the winning roller instead of a noticeable ilvl upgrade for the majority of the raid. Honestly i don't see why we should be punished for bringing the player and not the right token class, either remove class restrictions from token entirely or give us the option to exchange "wrong" once for a decent amount of gold/special currency.

[kosechi]

You can imagine yourself whatever you want. Reality shows us the truth, and the truth is: look at the best 10 man guild in the world, Paragon. And guess what? They've been wiping on council 10 for nine freaking hours. Nine. Freaking. Hours. NINE. Yes indeed, it looks like 25s are so much harder lol.
I personally would like if 10 vs 25 would be balanced not in the way Blizz do it. Nowadays it is balanced in the awful way of "first boss is easy everywhere, last boss is easy everywhere, and 80% of middle is hard for 10, because of stupid ton of cc/interrupts". Do you really understand that all your fabulous logistics problems in 25 is really nothing compared to situations where we in 10m raid have to kill the same number of adds, interrupt the same number of spells, beat the same enrage timers - while having three times less damage dealers, three times less healers and almost three times less people at all? Would you ever understand that sometimes whatever you do you'll wipe just because you don't have enough hands to deal with mechanics balanced for 25 ppl? I was RLing in 25 back in WotLK/Cata pre-DS, and I can tell you all the difference. You don't even understant that your super duper healer cooldown problems in 25 aren't even exist, because you have freaking TON of people. You easilly can make for example all your shamans have HTT, and when things get rough, you can command them to chain HTTs and just rip through mechanics easily. Try doing that in 10, where every cooldown really counts. Healing in 25 is also a joke overhealing zergfest. Try doing the same in 10, where you almost everytime do that idiotic trauma freaking HoT healing because you're running it with two healers, because you lack dps to kill all that 25m stuff with just five dps (not to mention "balance" issues, where in 10 ppl you have boss skill hit for 80k/ppl, while in 25 it doesn't hit for twice the 10, since they usually balanced for six healers, no; it hits 25 for 100k/ppl). DDing in 10 also sucks because any fight with adds mechanics turns into running here and there dodging void zones, interrupting focus casts there, and again run there kill add run here interrupt run there bla bla.
Anyway, i'm quite sure that even if you manage to read this, you won't want to understand. Its hard to wear off a red tinted glasses of elitist super hard raid format.

i can barely read this but you are wrong about pretty much every statement you've made in this. you've obviously not done 25s in a while, if ever.
there are fights that have taken 20 hours for 25s to kill while 10s have killed it in 9.
most 25s run 5 healers.
there are twice the number of adds in 25 man, often with twice the hp.
you need twice the interrupters and backups in 25 man.
its easier to deal with void zones in 10 man because room space doesn't scale dynamically.

Really a solution could be just to tune 25's as easier than 10's deliberately. Theres the incentive without having to award better/more gear. You can progress faster, clear more bosses each week because they are slightly easier, but the raid gets comparitively less gear from it as a result. Go back to giving 25 man 5 bits of loot.

why is it always "make 25 mans easier" why isn't making 10s harder ever an option?

the supposed 'gearing advantage' 25s have doesn't really exist.

[Crummy]

holy paladins in no way NEED a shield, its aesthetics that they prefer using one. the feng offhand is incredibly well itemized for them, so is the inscription offhand. if your progression is decent and you can consistently kill bosses you will eventually get your items. occasionally you get really shitty rng ( stupid. dps. plate.pants) and then you just have to suck it up. that kind of terrible rng happens to both formats.

i'm starting to get the impression this is all about random pugs who kill maybe one heroic and don't get the item they want off it, and then because they have no hope of ever killing that heroic ever again, cry about it.

Are you saying that they should use the off-hand instead of the shield? Because in that case you're wrong.
We've killed him on HC every week since week 2. No shield on drop, no shield from coin.

[kosechi]

Are you saying that they should use the off-hand instead of the shield? Because in that case you're wrong.
We've killed him on HC every week since week 2. No shield on drop, no shield from coin.

are holy paladins suddenly not able to use offhands? its well itemized and using an offhand instead of a shield is in no way going to impact their performance unless the offhand is atrociously itemized ( non spirit item for instance). they want the shield because it looks better.

if i'm so blasé about never getting my dps plate pants on 25 man, why are you so obsessed with your shield on 10 man? my loot rng was probably even worse because 25s get more loot and i still never saw them. i was probably stuck with much worse itemization then your holy paladin was.

shitty loot rng happens, and loot shouldn't be why you raid, loot is a means to an end.

[Grim Reaper]

Sounds good in theory, but could you imagine the shit storm it would create "Why are you not giving out X item, I need more than that guy needs Y item"

I have always liked the idea of having 3 items drop and been able to blacklist one.
How does this sound: Apply only to 10 man guild raids.

[DeiVias]

Lol no, noone needs a bonus loot items, not 10, not 25. What 10 needs is more smart loot drops. Or, maybe, it is time to move into declassed tokens, so there will be no situations when shammy token drops 18 times while priest token drops 1 time.

I would kill for that, we have i think it's 15 conq players in our 25, so far in TOT we have had 0 conq tokens, it's gonna be a lonnnnnng wait for 4 pc for most of our raiders.

[jaytheo]

I have always liked the idea of having 3 items drop and been able to blacklist one.
How does this sound: Apply only to 10 man guild raids.

It's an idea that would be amazing at the middle/end of a tier when you are looking for only 1 or 2 pieces of a few bosses, but at the start when more often than not all 3 pieces of loot are likely to be needed it would cause problems. As I guild leader I wouldn't like to tell one of my raiders that I'm blacklisting an item he/she wants.


[Edit] I would prefer the option of only having 2 tier token's for 10's over this idea above imo

[Ferocity]

They should make it so there would be vendor in raid instance who would sell any raid drops for raid only currency ("Raid points"), granted you had this boss killed before. 10-men boss would drop, number just for example, 100 points, while 25-men boss: 300 points. Here you go - problem solved. Boss still drops it's RNG loot, but you are no longer condemned to see all same drops being sharded from week to week (and then see 4+ rolls on some trinket which drops maximum once in expansion).

Personally I don't know that giving an extra piece of loot is the answer though. Loot tables should probably be thinned a bit. Last tier there were eight different cloth belts. Eight. Why? I couldn't tell you. Apparently there just needed to be one with every stat combination possible.

Actually two of those belts shared exactly same stats combinations (haste+mastery), just one had 1 socket, other - 2. Which makes it even more weird. Meanwhile there were almost no caster rings without spirit.