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  1. #41
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    Activate Conjor, form of theorycrafter!

    From the front page, re: the new mechanism for making unlucky streaks less likely. This is on top of the extra 10% proc chance on agi trinkets:
    Yep, I started playing with the equations yesterday when I saw the blue post.

  2. #42
    Field Marshal Hiraishin's Avatar
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    I'm completely terrible at math, I just dont have a clue what you were writing in here, would someone just simplified a bit the whole post? which one are our BIS or how is the order then?

  3. #43
    Everybody wants everything handed to them on a platter lol


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  4. #44
    Everybody wants everything handed to them on a platter
    No, its that the math is extremely tricky and not everyone is good at the advanced calculus/trig that it takes to try and figure out the insanity that is Blizz's proc rates.
    Please stop being part of the problem with unhelpful and wrong headed posts like these... the fact is many would like a answer from those that enjoy theorycrafting and math. Putting them down for not being able to find the end answer to a complex puzzle helps no one.

  5. #45
    Field Marshal Hiraishin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megazorrd View Post
    Everybody wants everything handed to them on a platter lol
    I'm not really trying that, I'm just not that good with maths, and everything that's involved in the theorycraft to find it myself... Don't judge people so easily mate, you might not know everything that you need to know to make such judgement....

  6. #46
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiraishin View Post
    I'm completely terrible at math, I just dont have a clue what you were writing in here, would someone just simplified a bit the whole post? which one are our BIS or how is the order then?
    Do you follow any of it? Or would a full translation (could take some time) be better?
    I am the lucid dream
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  7. #47
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    Updated with the new goodness (and formulas)!

    Enjoy!

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 12:09 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiraishin View Post
    I'm completely terrible at math, I just dont have a clue what you were writing in here, would someone just simplified a bit the whole post? which one are our BIS or how is the order then?
    use the spreadsheet and put in your haste values / stats weights (if you want to change them). You'll be able to see from the sheet which ones will (in a vacuum) give you the most dps.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    Updated with the new goodness (and formulas)!

    Enjoy!
    Great work, I'll look at it when I get the time, to doublecheck if the excel is put up correctly (I do not doubt you) and see if there's anything.

  9. #49
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    Updated with the new goodness (and formulas)!

    Enjoy!

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 12:09 PM ----------



    use the spreadsheet and put in your haste values / stats weights (if you want to change them). You'll be able to see from the sheet which ones will (in a vacuum) give you the most dps.
    Would it be terribly upsetting for you to tell me your address so that I can purchase a plane to America, taxi to your door and give you a very earnest kiss for all this effort?

    (I say effort like you didn't enjoy deriving it all, but we both know you loved it)
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  10. #50
    Ditto the appreciation expressed in the post above, Conjor (minus the visit to your home and the awkward pda). Really great work and most helpful in providing a way of approaching a very confusing situation with RPPM and evaluating the trinkets.

  11. #51
    How come in your spreadsheet Bottle is more dps than Renataki?

    Bottle 2/2 with 40% uptime gives 1234 agility, while Renataki 522 with 20% uptime gives average 1466 agility. Is it because you value expertise more than mastery because there can be trouble with it?

  12. #52
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctifer616 View Post
    How come in your spreadsheet Bottle is more dps than Renataki?

    Bottle 2/2 with 40% uptime gives 1234 agility, while Renataki 522 with 20% uptime gives average 1466 agility. Is it because you value expertise more than mastery because there can be trouble with it?
    Any cap stats I convert to the second highest valued secondary stat. In this case, I assume the stat priority is Crit > Mastery > Haste. So i treat all the Expertise on it as Mastery.

    Bottle = 1574 Agility (3935 Agility * .4 Uptime), 788 Mastery, 525 Crit
    Renataki = 1333 Agility (6665 Agility * .2 Uptime), 880 Mastery, 587 Crit

    I'll doublecheck the base stats on the trinkets, but we seem to disagree on the average stat gains.
    Last edited by Conjor; 2013-03-14 at 05:34 PM.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    Renataki = 1333 Agility (6665 Agility * .2 Uptime), 880 Mastery, 587 Crit
    Doesn't Renataki give 7331 average agility for the 522 version?

    (1333+2666+3999+5332+6665+7998+9331+10664+11997+13330)/10=7331.6

    And about my earlier post, just noticed that I wasn't looking at the HC version of the Bottle, thus my average agility on that one was different from yours. My bad on that one.
    Last edited by Noctifer616; 2013-03-14 at 05:57 PM.

  14. #54
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noctifer616 View Post
    Doesn't Renataki give 7331 average agility for the 522 version?

    (1333+2666+3999+5332+6665+7998+9331+10664+11997+13330)/10=7331.6

    And about my earlier post, just noticed that I wasn't looking at the HC version of the Bottle, thus my average agility on that one was different from yours. My bad on that one.
    Yea I calculated the average wrong. I fixed it.

  15. #55
    Field Marshal Hiraishin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conjor View Post
    Updated with the new goodness (and formulas)!

    Enjoy!

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-14 at 12:09 PM ----------



    use the spreadsheet and put in your haste values / stats weights (if you want to change them). You'll be able to see from the sheet which ones will (in a vacuum) give you the most dps.
    Thanks man, I really Appreciate it =)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryme View Post
    Do you follow any of it? Or would a full translation (could take some time) be better?
    And if you can PM the translation of it I would appreciate it as well, cuz I really want to know the whole truth inside the calculations, If you have the time and want to do it, I will gladly receive it =), thanks
    Last edited by Hiraishin; 2013-03-14 at 06:30 PM.

  16. #56
    Thanks for this, I love playing around with these kind of spreadsheets. I'm not good on the math myself but I'm extremely thankful for those that are

  17. #57
    Stood in the Fire Conjor's Avatar
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    I updated the math a bit to fix some Poisson stuff. The spreadsheet will be updated shortly. It didn't change any of the "average" stuff. Mathies enjoy.

    ---EDIT---
    Sheet is now updated.
    Last edited by Conjor; 2013-03-15 at 02:18 AM.

  18. #58
    I decided to add Normal bottle 2/2 (because I have that monstrosity) and it's at 8369,40 Averaged DPS.


    Would you mind explaining the use of the cell Confidence DPS compared to Averaged DPS,and how I should read them?


    Also, just to be clear, this basically means, that with 5% haste Relic of Xuen (or Heroic bottle 2/2) and Vicious Talisman will be BiS until heroic trinkets... gg. Unless you can get Thunderforged Renataki's, then it's better than Relic/Bottle.


    I also ran some 'goal seeking' tests (no idea if that's the name of it in an english excel), and the following haste levels for normals is needed to surpass Relic;

    Bad Juju - 22,67% (10203 rating)
    Renataki's - 9,56% (4300 rating)
    Rune of Re-Origination - 201% (90176 rating) :P This one is sketchy though, since this ones value also scales with how much mastery/haste you have.
    Talisman of Bloodlust - 506,64% (227988 rating) xD As I understood on Conjor this one isn't showing its full potential in the spreadsheet, due to not stacking the proccs, and adding the extra proccs to your haste (for more RPPM goodness).

  19. #59
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    You use poisson formula for trinkets with ICD, while it should be actually linear, since they can't overwrite the proc.
    The only thing not certain, is if the chance starts calculating from when ICD starts or from when ICD ends.

    I used some math from here and here and made this spreadsheet, but I'm still not sure how to input "unlucky protection". It will increase average proc rate, since the chance is modified when it starts working.
    Old Gods made me do it.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Thiron View Post
    You use poisson formula for trinkets with ICD, while it should be actually linear, since they can't overwrite the proc.
    The only thing not certain, is if the chance starts calculating from when ICD starts or from when ICD ends.

    I used some math from here and here and made this spreadsheet, but I'm still not sure how to input "unlucky protection". It will increase average proc rate, since the chance is modified when it starts working.
    The time since last chance to proc should start when the trinket procs and its ICD is ticking since you don't have a chance to proc it. Therefore trinkets like renataki's will have a higher chance to proc overall.

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