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  1. #201
    Mechagnome kleinlax21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    I already said the question shouldn't follow any logic,only personal opinion.I think people like you who rush to defend their ratio by attacking the question or blatantly ignore the question (like smegmage) should take a second and realise if you don't have any feelings of guilt.It's just a guess.

    The topic is not about why people are fired or hired.I'm not gonna comment this part.

    Now your last part.
    Where did I imply firings are a direct result of a payout?In this topic I implied the payout money can be used to save jobs.That is a fact.A few millions less in company costs each year definitely saves a bunch of jobs.
    This is not the main reason why CEO salary needs to be reduced,but it's a supporting argument.
    I gave you my personal opinion, it's just the question doesn't make sense because it completely depends on the size of the company said CEO works for.

    At one point, the discussion turned to why employees are fired, and I was only attempting to point out that its not, usually, because the CEO refused to take a pay cut.

    Why would a company use profit money to pay an employee who, according to the marketplace (in the Office Space example I used) is basically a complete financial liability to keep employed? I fail to see any sense of good business practice or common sense in such an approach to business, regardless of how much money the top dogs are making.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
    Stop dating strippers.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Kleinlax21 who is on your 'side' had no problem doing so.He also doesn't need to attack me in literally every sentence he types.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Ituhippi View Post
    I seriously hope you're joking.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-12 at 11:30 AM ----------



    If CEO salaries would be in line with others, nobody would want to be one. So much more responsibility and long hours. Your ass is also on the line, if the company fails, it means CEO fails. Often they get fired if the company isn't making big bucks. And they also often make easily 60 hour work weeks with no overtime pay.
    So you think the job is so straining an incentive of several million dollars is needed?

    What about surgeons.Their job can be very stressful too,they're responsible for human lives and it can happen that the patient dies even if the surgery went well.
    The consequences of a mistake can be mentally and career-wise disastrous.Why is it fine for them,not to be payed millions?

  3. #203
    The Patient BRACE FOR IMPACT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    Really? Moronic, huh?
    Let's see: There's millions of people living in poverty. Then there's a very wealthy elite. Fair distribution of wealth could literally save millions of lives, but someone hogging enough wealth to feed tens of thousands of people for themselves, and themselves alone, is somehow NOT a MASS MURDERER??

    You're the moron.
    This made me laugh, really dude. Just because you earn more money than someone else, doesn't make you a murderer.

    For example, do you live with existential minimum & donate all your excess money? Because if not, you're a murderer by your logic.
    They say that I can't last a day in the real world
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  4. #204
    Mechagnome kleinlax21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    So you think the job is so straining an incentive of several million dollars is needed?

    What about surgeons.Their job can be very stressful too,they're responsible for human lives and it can happen that the patient dies even if the surgery went well.
    The consequences of a mistake can be mentally and career-wise disastrous.Why is it fine for them,not to be payed millions?
    As I've mentioned before, the stressfulness or even weight of decisions made in a particular line of work have nothing to do with a salary somebody takes home. I've answered your question of why its fine (from the marketplace's perspective) that they get paid millions already, and it's because the supply is low enough and the demand high enough for good CEO's that such massive salaries for those positions exist. There literally is no other reason for the status quo than supply and demand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
    Stop dating strippers.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Kleinlax21 who is on your 'side' had no problem doing so.He also doesn't need to attack me in literally every sentence he types.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    It's not the opposite it's the same.It's simple.The job should pay what's it's worth.Whether it's the performance of a top athlete or the job a CEO they do not warrant such high salary.
    You're deluded in your own misconceptions,or tell me again where I am a hypocrite.
    You're the one that is 'bitching',in every post you just can't refrain from attacking me,you can't limit it to simply discussing my arguments.
    I hope you do get it now though.

    You also didn't manage to again answer a simple question.How would you divide,by your personal opinion, the 100 000$ between the ceo,the medic and the electrician?[COLOR="red"]
    Who are you to decide what they're worth? You don't decide that, numbers do, and the numbers add up. Keep using your idealistic hopes and dreams which do no mesh with reality.

    And again you keep ignoring there will always be a market for sports, and the athletes personally are responsible for bringing in the fans. Who should the money go to in sports? You've failed to answer that.

    Your proposition of how to divide an amount is unrealistic. It assumes a finite pool of money which is not increased or decreased based on the productivity of the individual's. I'm not going to answer something so poorly thought out that stinks of desperation to force your beliefs onto others.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by kleinlax21 View Post
    Well, as I stated earlier, it is not for any one person to decide what a CEO is worth; it's up to the marketplace. Let's say, for example, all the Fortune 500 companies' CEO's demand a 50% pay raise together in a coordinated effort (basically, lets pretend a company is stuck with their current CEO and are forced to pay him whatever he wishes). So, now let's look at one individual company, for example McDonald's. McDonald's, because of this extremely illicit and illegal agreement between top CEO's everywhere, is forced to pay their existing CEO the 50% raise, because (again, redonkulous scenario, but roll with me here) they cannot replace their CEO, which effectively means the supply of CEO's is one, or in other words, the current CEO holds a monopoly upon th e CEO position at McDonalds. The supply of this CEO, being in this (admittedly asinine) example nearly zero, translates into a relatively high demand for him to not quit his job and leave McDonalds CEO-less. Thus, McDonald's pays him what he asks because McDonald's doesn't have a choice.

    Now, in themreal marketplace, lets say Mr. McDonald's CEO demands the same 50% pay raise or threatens to quit as in the previous scenario. However, this time, McDkonalds has the option to either: keep the CEO with the raise, or go find a new CEO for (presumanly) less cost than the current CEO with his demanded raise. Lets say they ditch the old CEO and go with new blood for their next CEO, paying this new dude the same amount that they paid their old CEO. Here, McDonald's decided that the new CEO provided the company with a higher wealth creating potential than the prior CEO did. Because the supply of able and willing CEO's was higher in this scenario, demand for the existing CEO was lowered as a result, meaning McDonalds now isn't forced into paying him his demanded raise.

    This is basically how salaries are determined for positions of all natures in all industries in the private sector. It's a balancing act between two factors: the supply of people willing and able to fill a position for X pay, and the demand for people to fill a position at X pay. This equation is very easily modeled in graphical form, so here is a supply and demand curve for you to gander at:

    http://www.geopolitics.us/wp-content...mand-Graph.png

    It states that there will always be an optimal point somewhere where the two curves intersect. This point decided the current salary of the average employee of any given profession in the private sector.
    You're completely right.But in terms of the topic thus regarding the morality of it it's completely wrong.CEO's don't deserve such high salaries.
    Again,capitalism shows it's need for social correction.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    So you think the job is so straining an incentive of several million dollars is needed?

    What about surgeons.Their job can be very stressful too,they're responsible for human lives and it can happen that the patient dies even if the surgery went well.
    The consequences of a mistake can be mentally and career-wise disastrous.Why is it fine for them,not to be payed millions?
    Compensation is proportionate to performance and increases in profitability. CEOs make decisions which make money, surgeons do not. Keep failing to understand simple economics.
    Last edited by smegmage; 2013-03-12 at 09:45 AM.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Great there's a reason why things are how they are.That instantly makes everything fine I guess?
    I like how you argue yourself.We're barely agreeing in this topic if the ceo payouts are too high or not and you're talking about specific ways to reduce their salaries?No one has talked about that.But there you go,it seems like you enjoy bashing the imaginary enemy you made up for yourself.
    Lol. Maximum salaries seem to be the term everyone is dancing around but no one is willing to actually say.

    It comes down to the fact that corporate money isn't your money. The board and shareholders get to decide how to spend it. You can be as outraged as you like, they have no reason to care.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    You're completely right.But in terms of the topic thus regarding the morality of it it's completely wrong.CEO's don't deserve such high salaries.
    Again,capitalism shows it's need for social correction.
    "you're completely right, but it proves my premise wrong therefore you as well are wrong"

    You're a troll

    Infracted: Please do not post to call other users trolls.
    Last edited by Pendulous; 2013-03-12 at 04:50 PM.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    So you think the job is so straining an incentive of several million dollars is needed?

    What about surgeons.Their job can be very stressful too,they're responsible for human lives and it can happen that the patient dies even if the surgery went well.
    The consequences of a mistake can be mentally and career-wise disastrous.Why is it fine for them,not to be payed millions?
    What is it about the value of the CEO position that you just don't understand? A good CEO can be worth many times his salary to the company, even if his salary is $5 million.

    A single surgeon might be valuable in his own right, but putting a price on that value places it below a corporate executive.

  11. #211
    It really depends on the company. The problem is the free market, a good leading person with a lot of connections can be a huge benefit for any company. But good CEO's know their values.

    If there's a company which gives you a fair salary (let's say 45'000$ in your 100'000$ measure) and a company which gives you 80'000$, which one will you choose? It's a free market after all. And a good company is highly dependant on a good leadership with good connections.

    After all, the so often blamed CEO's are often not the ones earning most money. If you have a look at the CS (Credit Suisse) for example. There is Brady Dougan which earned between 20M$ - 80M$ annually during his leadership, on the other hand, there are investment brokers in this bank, which earn some percentage of their earning, which made more than 80M$ a year.

    If you limit the amount of salary a CEO can get, it is (unfortunately) likely that he will choose an other company.

    And if you were in the position of getting a job in a leading position, all of you would choose the higher salary.

  12. #212
    Mechagnome kleinlax21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    You're completely right.But in terms of the topic thus regarding the morality of it it's completely wrong.CEO's don't deserve such high salaries.
    Again,capitalism shows it's need for social correction.
    How is it morally wrong to pay one person what the marketplace pegs his worth at? I don't see how you can make a blanket statement of "it's completely wrong" when it's your opinion. I actually would consider it morally reprehensible to cut a CEO's pay from the true marketplace value in order to inflate his employees standard of living above the true marketplace value. I think everyone, once above a good threshold, should be entitled to the fruits of their labor (NO IM NOT SAYING TAXES R BAD MKAY). If the marketplace decides a CEO is worth 100 million a year, and if a company agrees to pay him that sum, I fail to see where the immorality occurs.

    Nothing about any of your posts in this thread definitively prove capitalism truly, factually needs social correction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
    Stop dating strippers.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Kleinlax21 who is on your 'side' had no problem doing so.He also doesn't need to attack me in literally every sentence he types.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    You're completely right.But in terms of the topic thus regarding the morality of it it's completely wrong.CEO's don't deserve such high salaries.
    Again,capitalism shows it's need for social correction.
    Are you implying your morality is the correct one?

    I mean... you're not even trying to have a discussion here. Talk to people, not at them.

  14. #214
    Mechagnome kleinlax21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smegmage View Post
    "you're completely right, but it proves my premise wrong therefore you as well are wrong"

    You're a troll
    No, he isn't. He disagrees with pegging earnings to the marketplace definition of "important", and would rather them be attached by more subjective criteria like social/medicinal/life contributions (teachers/doctors, etc.). He isn't a troll.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
    Stop dating strippers.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Kleinlax21 who is on your 'side' had no problem doing so.He also doesn't need to attack me in literally every sentence he types.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by kleinlax21 View Post
    No, he isn't. He disagrees with pegging earnings to the marketplace definition of "important", and would rather them be attached by more subjective criteria like social/medicinal/life contributions (teachers/doctors, etc.). He isn't a troll.
    So... he wants to legislate salaries for different jobs?

  16. #216
    Mechagnome kleinlax21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    So... he wants to legislate salaries for different jobs?
    Essentially, yes. He wants to use different criteria than supply and demand to decide what any given profession's average salary is. For instance, he has said he would rather increase a doctor's pay in favor of lowering a famous actor's pay. He wants to adjust salaries to benefit professions that are based in more egalitarian fields than others, from what I can understand.

    From what I can understand, and I wouldnt want to put words in your mouth ZR, is that you would support a legislative-sourced attempt to place limits on the salaries of CEO's in private companies and distribute the overflow evenly among low paid workers of the company.
    Last edited by kleinlax21; 2013-03-12 at 10:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Regennis View Post
    Stop dating strippers.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Kleinlax21 who is on your 'side' had no problem doing so.He also doesn't need to attack me in literally every sentence he types.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by smegmage View Post
    Who are you to decide what they're worth? You don't decide that, numbers do, and the numbers add up. Keep using your idealistic hopes and dreams which do no mesh with reality.

    And again you keep ignoring there will always be a market for sports, and the athletes personally are responsible for bringing in the fans. Who should the money go to in sports? You've failed to answer that.

    Your proposition of how to divide an amount is unrealistic. It assumes a finite pool of money which is not increased or decreased based on the productivity of the individual's. I'm not going to answer something so poorly thought out that stinks of desperation to force your beliefs onto others.
    Who am I to decide?A member of society?These ''idealistic hopes and dreams'' are actually called discussing economical politics.

    I don't see how I'm 'ignoring' the market for sports?Where did I do that?I did not.
    ''Who should the money go to in sports? You've failed to answer that.''
    Actually I answered this question on this page.Post #183

    Where should the money go?The topic is not about how such salary would be reduced,it's about whether it needs reduction or not.I have enough on my plate with the main subject.
    I said I will only bother answering the main subject,because I have a lot of posts to answer already.Maybe you failed to read this?

    A simple question is forcing my 'desperation' on you?
    So far you're the only one that has such a hard time answering a simple question.
    Kleinlax21 who is on your 'side' had no problem doing so.He also doesn't need to attack me in literally every sentence he types.
    Which leads me to the conclusion that you are not an individual worth replying to anymore aside from this last post.
    You seem to be stressed.
    Hopefully your can calm down.
    Last edited by ZRebellion; 2013-03-12 at 10:03 AM.

  18. #218
    The Lightbringer Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    Your spacebar probably gets paid too much as well and it barely does it's job either...what a shame.
    I was thinking that as well.. maybe if we paid it better it would do it's job.

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  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by semaphore View Post
    It should be based on how much value CEOs actually bring to the performance of the company. The outrage is over the perception that they are rewarded far beyond their actual value.
    In most cases as of late, they are rewarded stupid amounts even if it's breaks entire economies or companies, an in extreme cases that's even if minority share holders get financially ruined for life n' are forced to declare bankruptcy, sell car n' home.., at times even with a divorce to boot.

    A bonus is okay to give, if it's %-based on what the person receiving it brings into the company on a quarterly / annually term, but quite honestly.., the bonus "culture" have spun far far out of control, especially in the UK n' States where salary might not be insane, but the bonus is just to loop-hole tax systems.

    The "top" if you will, will always make sure they have theirs in order financially n' risk-wise with little to no concern for the middle / bottom of their company.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by kleinlax21 View Post
    Essentially, yes. He wants to use different criteria than supply and demand to decide what any given profession's average salary is. For instance, he has said he would rather increase a doctor's pay in favor of lowering a famous actor's pay. He wants to adjust salaries to benefit professions that are based in more egalitarian fields than others, from what I can understand.

    From what I can understand, and I wouldnt want to put words in your mouth ZR, is that you would support a legislative-sourced attempt to place limits on the salaries of CEO's in private companies and distribute the overflow evenly among low paid workers of the company.
    Man, of all the ideas the Soviets ever had, I'm pretty sure this is the worst one I've heard anyone have a desire to resurrect.

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