That is what we have now.
ICC? So much better. I made a new 80, ran him through heroics til he was geared enough to step into the newest raid that, which is the one people were running. Then boom, I was raiding and spent 2 years playing the game because of it. Because the moment I hit 80, the raid part of the game the rest of the playerbase was playing was within sight.
Now? I make a new 90 and...I can do heroics do earn valor! But I can't spend any of that valor because every piece is gated by a daily quest rep. Okay, how about I use my JP to buy some gear to get into raiding? Oh, those are also gated behind rep and worthless. Hm. Okay. So how about I grind heroics and just walk into an old raid. Oh, no one is pugging old raids because, why would they. Hmmmm. Oh, I got it! I'll log in and spend 1-2 hours every day do daily quests to buy the previous tier's valor items so I can get into LFR and have a chance at gear once a week(MORE IF I DO DAILIES YAAAY)! And then I can do that once, every week, until I get lucky enough to get enough drops to get my gear to the point where anyone would consider asking me to participate in a throne of thunder raid. Or alternatively I could hate myself and my life enough to do daily quests on every alt so I could piss way the meager 1000 valor a week I can earn buying out of date gear that will have to be replaced the moment I an able to participate in the next tier. It is a garbage system.
And next time I make a 90? I have to do the same thing, except I will now also have to run ToT LFR in order to be geared enough to do Siege of Org.
Nothing about that sounds fun. If this, bullshit, was what I experienced when I first started playing the game during ICC, I would not have played this game for as long as I did.
The game needs an effective catch up mechanism, and LFR is not one.
Progression does exist, but progression doesnt need others not to progress. Normal guilds are havign their progression, and most Normal guilds were unable to progress in the past tier, so no, you aare wrong when you say only a few heroic guilds are having progression. EVERYONE is having progression, even those that LFR, but a very small amount of midcore (because they are not even hardcore, hardcore doesnt care about what others do) cried too hard about others actually having fun so Blizzard implemented this crap instead of the real catch up mechanisms we had.
Some people, like you, are too busy watching what OTHERS are doing instead of just enjoying what THEY are doing.
---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 02:40 PM ----------
Every other MMO had your bloved "progression", yet they were all aimed to a very hardcore community.
WoW destroyed them by giving the gamers accesibility, by making the game LESS hardcore, by giving the gamers MORE chances to "win" the game even if they were doing other things beside playing it.
To many posters here, that would seem to be ultimate game: fast, efficient and rewarding. Whats not to like?
Obviously the entire point of any game is to consume time, to *not* be efficient. To make players work for what they get. It is ridiculously easy to make a game that says "You win!" just for pushing a button, its much harder to make a meaningful journey in a game that provides reward through genuine challenge.
Honestly if people don't like the idea of progression, and they don't like to take time to gear, or learn lore, or see the world, why are these people even playing MMOs in the first place? Thats what an MMO is. If you want simple, mindless smashing of buttons and instant rewards for doing nothing, go find a arcade and play whack-a-mole. Leave MMOs to people who actually appreciate what an MMO is.
*~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*
The trajectory of raid participation and progression in this expansion has been consistent with what I thought would happen. I project further decline, even if Blizzard panics and starts nerfing (I doubt they will, btw).
What I am most interested in is WHY Blizzard chose this path. I'm wondering if it isn't substantially their attempt at a definitive experiment, to see how many players really want harder content.
*~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*
And don't say that you aren't rewarded for doing heroic raids over LFR. On my main i can kill a 500k hpt mob on the Isle of thunder in about 3 to 4 seconds, on my alts that are LFR geared it takes probably 3 times as long. If you just do LFR you will have a 502 ilvl weapon, raiders are running around with 2/2 upgraded heroic weapons from last tier that are already 15 ilvls higher than this, and pretty soon they will be running around with heroic thunderforged weapons that are 39 ilvls higher than LFR weapons, casual players probably wont have access to this level of weapons until the next expansion.
Last edited by Venant; 2013-03-19 at 06:25 PM.
Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
If trickle down economics is working, it's only because there is a damn leak somewhere! -The One Percent
Using LFR allows most players to see content they would normally miss because of gear/guild limitations. Not sure how a "reduced" raiding feature like LFR really affects "hardcore raiders". Most "hardcores" are already in raid guilds, get their gear by any means necessary, and continue to see reg/heroic content. More people than ever before are finally raiding through a raid finder and seeing content they might have otherwise missed out on.
Maybe, people should just play their game their way and stop worrying about what someone else does with their $15 a month Just my 2 cents.
---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 11:24 AM ----------
I would rather gear up by doing the appropriate raid in LFR, then by farming (and later, facerolling) the same 5 man dungeons for the entire duration of an expansion.
Especially by the end of the expansion when you outgear the dungeon by like 60 ilevel points, everything is faceroll, and you still get upgrades.
At least with LFR there is some sort of ladder system where you unlock new and more rewarding raids.
"If you look out of the window as a human being, at nature, all of nature is unconditionally and absolutely beautiful wherever it is. Whether it's a jungle. Whether it's a desert. Whether it's the Arctic wastes. Or even your own back garden. The only ugly things you will ever see when you look out of the window are things made by man." - Stephen Fry
It's just as easy to be LFR raid ready the same day you hit 90...people keep saying that part has magically changed. When the game launched it was a huge problem, but it just isn't anymore. Now you are completely right that you still have to depend on RNG to get up to current content, which sucks. For all I know my DK will be stuck in the lowest LFR tier for over a month because I have bad luck, who knows.
That's the part that's awful, but let's not embellish the intial stages anymore...we're past that.
No effective catch up mechanism coupled with a continuation of hard normal raiding in ToT will lower that number.
People are trying, and they are failing because content is too hard for them.
Also, honor PvP gear is ilvl 476, which should help plug holes in your gear on the way to the 480 needed to do ToT LFR.