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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    The way Blizz does it know, raiding it greatly cheapened for everyone. LFR is not even raiding, lets be honest. And the thrill for the hardcore players is greatly reduced knowing that everyone who can click a que button can do the same things they are.
    The hardcore players you mention there were living on a sinking island. Raids could not continue to be provided without a better ROI than catering to that tiny minority.

    The notion that the great majority of players would continue to play, just so the hardcores could feel smug at the top of their exclusive heap, never had any grounding in reality.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    There was a time when people actually raided for fun rather than just as a means to a end.
    Oh I do. On my main. If you read my comment it was about alts. I like to play lots of alts. I don't want to sit in 5.0/5.1 raids the entirety of this expansion just b/c one of my alts gets zero drops. It is Blizz that said LFR is a catch-up mechanic. It's a poor one. I don't have to catch up on my main and we raid 2 nights per week and it's fun. I don't care about gear. I care that on my alts the only thing I can do to raid is the previous LFR's over and over and dailies over and over so that I can someday get to the item level required for the newer LFR's.....which I'm not burned out on.

    I've leveled 5 90's now. I do BG's on one of my toons. I have 5 other toons at 85 or above. I have a monk at 67 on the opposing faction. I grind old raids for fun, transmog, and mounts. I help out guildies. I run dungeons and scenarios. And yes, I do a lot of dailies on a lot of toons. Your comment is that of a smart-ass trying to prove he is better than someone else on a forum. I've played since vanilla and there is not a time that I wasn't willing to do dailies, grind rep, grind resist gear, play catch-up, or whatever is required to better my toons. And I never venture that far beyond what is fun to me in the game.

    Blizz's "catch-up" idea is nothing more than sitting around waiting for queues and hoping to get lucky with drops....all the while encouraging you to do dailies so that you can get an extra roll for those drops. At least in previous expansions there were some dungeons where you could have a little bit of variance to the fun and "catch-up" that also tied into the story.

  3. #283
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    And since one can convert 375 JP into 250 honor (at the JP trade good vendors in SW/Org), you can even get all that honor gear by just chaining heroic 5 mans and scenarios.
    Yes, and I also carried over 10k honor in Krasarang rare tokens on an alt (it does not work on a main alas )

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    My viewpoint allows the other 97% of the casual playebase to experience all the content that WoW has to offer. Your opinion on the matter seeks to REMOVE the ability for the 97% casual base to see anything at all because it is not "the pinnacle of raiding perfection and gives the greatest reward". We just want to raid and should not have to grind 30+ hours a week and then join a hardcore guild and HOPE for a spot and then get removed because LIFE got in the way.

    We want to raid when we have the time. We want to experience the game at OUR pace... not yours. We want the right to get into a lessor raiding forum and experience the content in our own way... not the way some HARDCORE dictates. LFR was made for the people, it was a request of the people, and aside from an over abundance of gold bags, is exactly what the casuals wanted. And now you think it should be scrapped cause it "dilutes" YOUR idea of raid progression. We pay $15 a month to play too and do NOT have to do it on anyone else's terms but our own.

    PS - 25M Heroic has always been tailored to Heroic. You keep yours and we will keep ours.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 01:42 PM ----------



    That's good to know. Thanks
    Sure. Just don't think your doing the game any favors by asking it to cater to you. For perspective, in the 4 years WoW had a hardcore raiding model, it gained about 230,000 subscriptions per month and never had a losing quarter. Since the day it started catering to you, it has lost 3 million players and has had only one winning quarter in the last 2.5 years.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Sure. Just don't think your doing the game any favors by asking it to cater to you. For perspective, in the 4 years WoW had a hardcore raiding model, it gained about 230,000 subscriptions per month and never had a losing quarter. Since the day it started catering to you, it has lost 3 million players and has had only one winning quarter in the last 2.5 years.
    Oh look, it's the "correlation = causation" fallacy.

    Your inference is patently ludicrous, for reasons that have been explained time and time again.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The hardcore players you mention there were living on a sinking island. Raids could not continue to be provided without a better ROI than catering to that tiny minority.

    The notion that the great majority of players would continue to play, just so the hardcores could feel smug at the top of their exclusive heap, never had any grounding in reality.
    Apparently you missed that little segment of reality from 2004 to 2008.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  7. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Sure. Just don't think your doing the game any favors by asking it to cater to you. For perspective, in the 4 years WoW had a hardcore raiding model, it gained about 230,000 subscriptions per month and never had a losing quarter. Since the day it started catering to you, it has lost 3 million players and has had only one winning quarter in the last 2.5 years.
    Oh maybe because - gasp - the game is 8 years old and there is a lot more competition these days? Could it be?

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Oh look, it's the "correlation = causation" fallacy.

    Your inference is patently ludicrous, for reasons that have been explained time and time again.
    Oh look its the "use red herring fallacy to claim another guy is using a fallacy," fallacy.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  9. #289
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Apparently you missed that little segment of reality from 2004 to 2008.
    It was a segment of economical idiocy which culminated with strikingly beautiful but retarded instance called SWP aka "hey let's develop a lot of stuff no one will ever see at release, but heck...". At this point, even pengouins in Antarctica understood that the model of developing raid content for a tiny minority was no longer viable.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    Oh maybe because - gasp - the game is 8 years old and there is a lot more competition these days? Could it be?
    It could be. Except the decline didn't start today, it started 4 years ago. Literally 1 month after the casuals got their wish with wotlk.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 04:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    It was a segment of economical idiocy which culminated with strikingly beautiful but retarded instance called SWP aka "hey let's develop a lot of stuff no one will ever see at release, but heck...". At this point, even pengouins in Antarctica understood that the model of developing raid content for a tiny minority was no longer viable.
    What exactly made it so clear that it wasn't viable? Was it the rabid fan base? Skyrocketing subs that showed no signs of slowing?

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  11. #291
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    It could be. Except the decline didn't start today, it started 4 years ago. Literally 1 month after the casuals got their wish with wotlk.
    First tier of LK was messed up on several aspects, I'll give you that. The fact that there were no hardmodes hit a lot of people pretty hard. The situation, however, was stabilized and WoW never went below 11.5 Mil during LK. Until Blizzard listened to stupid forum whiners (and their inner nerdyness) and came up with idiotic stuff called 4.0 5-mans.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Sure. Just don't think your doing the game any favors by asking it to cater to you. For perspective, in the 4 years WoW had a hardcore raiding model, it gained about 230,000 subscriptions per month and never had a losing quarter. Since the day it started catering to you, it has lost 3 million players and has had only one winning quarter in the last 2.5 years.
    There are HUNDREDS of threads in the official Forums talking about LFR. Loot, spec locking, drop rate, gold bags, and MORE. Of ALL of those threads, none of them ever recommended just removing LFR cause it diluted the snowflake status for Hardcore raiders. Even the Elite Hardmode versions are not quite as Epic as 25M heroic. A feature that gives 97% of the remaining player base a chance to see content should not be removed just because it makes 3% feel less special. It may have lost 3M players, but the number of players today seeing current raid content vs Wrath or early Cata has more than doubled thanks to LFR.
    Last edited by Walter II; 2013-03-19 at 09:20 PM.

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    I would prefer to be on 5 man dungeons.
    Why people want to spend an entire expansion continuously farming/facerolling dungeons that were designed for people wearing blues I will never know. Oh yes, the THRILL of having to run all those dungeons again just to upgrade your ilevel by a few points. No wonder Cataclysm lost all those subs.

    No, LFR and actually experiencing the raids is a far superior way of keeping us non-raiders entertained.

    I couldn't be happier with the direction of MoP in terms of end game, and I'm a casual non-raider. There is simply loads to do. I hate spamming stupidly easy 5 man dungeons (which drop pre raiding blues) for justice points to buy Tier xx epic gear. Its an illogical and frankly stupid system.
    "If you look out of the window as a human being, at nature, all of nature is unconditionally and absolutely beautiful wherever it is. Whether it's a jungle. Whether it's a desert. Whether it's the Arctic wastes. Or even your own back garden. The only ugly things you will ever see when you look out of the window are things made by man." - Stephen Fry

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Apparently you missed that little segment of reality from 2004 to 2008.
    Apparently you missed the enormous churn of non-hardcore players that WoW has experienced over the years. When the supply of new suckers for the ego ponzi scheme ended, the game was over.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Apparently you missed the enormous churn of non-hardcore players that WoW has experienced over the years. When the supply of new suckers for the ego ponzi scheme ended, the game was over.
    Oh no I didn't miss it. I've closely watched the casual experiment fail as quarter after quarter brings in more losses.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Exactly. If everyone has everything there is no thrill in trying to pursue the top.
    I have a thrill to puruse the top in every single game i played that had a very easy setting in it. I knew others were getting the exact same thing i had while playing in an easier difficulty, it never nothered me.

    It doesnt bother me either that other people are getting worse gear than me in WoW while playing in an easier difficulty.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Superman-BladesEdge View Post
    There are HUNDREDS of threads in the official Forums talking about LFR. Loot, spec locking, drop rate, gold bags, and MORE. Of ALL of those threads, none of them ever recommended just removing LFR cause it diluted the snowflake status for Hardcore raiders. Even the Elite Hardmode versions are not quite as Epic as 25M heroic. A feature that gives 97% of the remaining player base a chance to see content should not be removed just because it makes 3% feel less special. It may have lost 3M players, but the number of players today seeing current raid content vs Wrath or early Cata has more than doubled thanks to LFR.

    What do you think Activision cares about more, having everyone see raid content or having an extra $15 a month from 3 million people?

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    Oh no I didn't miss it. I've closely watched the casual experiment fail as quarter after quarter brings in more losses.
    I was talking about the churn during that earlier period, when WoW was growing in spite of the end game difficulty, not because of it.

    Let me spell it out, since you seem kind of slow: the growth in total subs was because of the great influx of fresh players, not because most of them found the hardcore endgame particularly attractive (most of them never even raided). If the endgame had been easier, the peak would likely have been even higher than it was.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by SherbertLand View Post

    That leads to being caught up in a few days time.
    Which is not a problem, its something good.

    Gating progression items is good, gating catch up items is stupid.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    You CAN get 476 epics with JP: just convert them to honor first and get the ilvl 476 PvP items.
    Keep in mind it isn't a 1:1 conversion though.

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